God creates us and loves us but if you're gay you go to hell?

a reply to: markosity1973

I used to know a guy back in gradeschool... he was always different then any of the other guys...

Most of us played with GI Joe or fought/wrestled in the school yard... played sports...

This guy played with the girls... played with dolls... no one disliked him really we all just thought he was a little strange... but no one knew why back then... way before anyone had any sexual orientation

I ended up working with him years later... nicest guy you could ever meet... turned out he was gay.. and that is when it dawned on me... thats why he was always different

i asked him when he figured out he was gay.... he said he always knew, and so did his family...

people are most definitely born that way...

Pretty sure even Jesus said it when he talks about Eunuch's

Like i said previously... its just religion... it makes people stupid

a reply to: Akragon

Like i said previously... its just religion... it makes people stupid

I might change this to read: it's just religion... it makes people stop thinking.......

stupid is as stupid does. Ya know.

Buying into religion is what people with limited capacities for independent critical thinking often do -- less often, it is bought by people so desperate for an anchor or something to hold onto that they have no other buoy....

insofar as it keeps people from homicidal rampages or equivalently antisocial behaviors, well - it's a tool. Didn't work for me, nor does it work for lots of other people. Perhaps because we have our "lower-level" needs met - and feel secure enough to explore out-of-bounds ski runs, ya know.

Some people just never trust themselves without that "sky-warden" in their heads saying "NO!" and wagging its terrible finger at them.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: markosity1973

I used to know a guy back in gradeschool... he was always different then any of the other guys...

Most of us played with GI Joe or fought/wrestled in the school yard... played sports...

This guy played with the girls... played with dolls... no one disliked him really we all just thought he was a little strange... but no one knew why back then... way before anyone had any sexual orientation

Yep......

Back when the boys were playing bullrush and army games (every break at one school I went to was a war game) I was either in the library reading a book or playing with the girls because I didn't like the rough and tumble games.

Everyone at school like me and I liked them - I was always top of the class, so they just thought I was bit of a nerd. Even when guys first started noticing girls I had no idea. I just thought that they had finally come to their senses and realised what great friends they could make.

It was only after puberty and I realised that my sexual fantasies were about other guys while all the other guys were talking about girls sexually I realised that something about me was not quite the same as everyone else.

a reply to: markosity1973

im just glad im not the judge....and i personally believe God is WAY more accepting and forgiving and all that good stuff than we will ever be.

I have gay friends and family and i would not want to look them in the eyes and tell them that they are not allowed to have a loving, committed relationship with someone of the same sex. I think people like to think they know the answers, know the deal about this and that....and that ultimately leads to alot more wrong than right....alot more offending others than bringing them in. I thnk its totally possible to love people, welcome them into the church, without accepting their lifestyle and telling htem its all good. Look, its not MY ROLE to tell you or anyone else the way youre living is all good....its not my place....neither is it my place to condemn someone for their lifestyle.

where this issue gets really tricky is about people who have paraphelias that are not NOW socially acceptable as homosexuality has become and now more recently other variations of sexuality and gender like the LGBTQ plus is now becoming. We have to recognize that jsut because a culture or society has warmed to the idea that this ONE or two variants of sexuality is now ok that doesnt really mean anything to the man/woman/thing upstairs....it jsut doesnt. WE dont get to determine what reality is.

There are people who are not hetero or homo....they are other......and what about them? You may intuit some of what im alluding to.....and i think it would be intelllectually inconsistent to say that now homosexuality is ok.....but some of these other variations of sexuality are not. What...is it ok only because its two consenting HUMAN adults? well what kind of logic is that? There is no logic in that at all. Its an a priori position that has gradually gained wider acceptance but it hardly means anything in the moral or cosmic sense beyond US.

There are people who dont even identify as HUMAN. Ok???? What kind of sense does it make for a gay person, or a non binary to cast judgement on them anymore it does for a hetero to cast judgement on the gay or non binary etc?

I think we need to figure out what the parameters we are working with are and WHY we established those parameters to begin with. Who is the authority here?

This is precisely the problem with deciding that WE get to decide what is ok...because as long as we are our own authority there will never be a static, unchanging STANDARD of behavior or anythign else...it will simply be whatever the group at that time decides it is....and as we can see now, and have seen in history....that is HIGHLY variable. just look at the greeks and romans, classic example right? Alot of the rich folks had boy sex toys....perfectly normal right? Socially acceptable right? Now its not......so are we better than them? Are we more moral? I dont think so man..i just think we are different and in every epoch or age or wahtever we decide whats ok at that time and sometimes it changes and sometimes it doesnt.

Are all cultures equal in value? Are all moral standards in those cultures equal in value or authority? I can point out several cultures around the non western world RIGHT NOW wehre they practice things that to the western mind would be simply horrific...and yet are perfectly acceptable there. ARe we setting ourselves up as moral authorities over those cultures because we disagree with them? Are we more enlightened than they? Are we better than they?


Theres alot to explore on this subject and in the overall larger umbrella of human sexuality, gender, and just what it even means to be human at all.

originally posted by: RiptKeys

The 144-page paper was written by Dr. Lawrence S. Mayer, an epidemiologist and biostatistician also trained in psychiatry, who is currently a scholar in residence at the Department of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, and Dr. Paul R. McHugh, a renowned psychiatrist, researcher, and educator and former chief of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins Hospital. The paper’s three parts focus on sexual orientation, links between sexuality and mental health, and gender identity.

Wow! 2 world renowned PhD's from Johns Hopkins? Amazing.

Sorry but you just blew any credibility you might have had. "World renowned" but not in the way you seem to think.

Lawrence S. Mayer and Paul R. McHugh – Douchebags of the Day

The Right’s Favorite Anti-LGBT Doctor Strikes Again

Human Rights Campaign Sets Sights on Johns Hopkins After Controversial Trans Report

Johns Hopkins Professor Endangers the Lives of Transgender Youth

New 'Scientific' Study on Sexuality, Gender Is Neither New nor Scientific

The Truth About The Massive New Study That Has Captivated Anti-LGBT Groups

Almost Everything the Media Tell You About Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Is Wrong

Johns Hopkins Professors Condemn Anti-LGBT Junk Science In Baltimore Sun Op-Ed

Faculty members at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health disassociated themselves from a recent report on LGBT health published by fellow Hopkins colleagues in a non-peer review journal, condemning the “troubling” report in a op-ed in The Baltimore Sun for “mischaracterizing” scientific evidence in a way that will “further stigmatize and harm the health of LGBTQ communities.”

Three faculty members from Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health published an op-ed on September 28 in The Baltimore Sun criticizing a new report on LGBT health that they say is cause for “concern” because it “mischaracterizes the current state of the science on sexuality and gender.” The recent report is written by current Hopkins “scholar in residence” Lawrence Mayer and faculty member Paul McHugh. McHugh has long peddled anti-LGBT pseudoscience and refused to accept medical consensus on LGBT health, having previously written op-eds for The Wall Street Journal in which he lamented the increasing visibility of transgender rights and warned that transgender identities should be treated as "confusions" and illnesses.

Hopkins under fire for anti-LGBT report

A petition signed by 670 people has demanded that Baltimore-based Johns Hopkins Medicine publicly disavow the recent report by Dr. Paul McHugh and Dr. Lawrence Mayer that amounts to a “misguided, misinformed attack on LGBT communities.” The petition was signed by 264 alumni of Johns Hopkins institutions, 200 current students, 30 faculty members, and more than 100 staff, interns, residents and fellows.

Shall I continue?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

im actually starting to believe the actual organized part of religion does make people stupid...

you know me, im all for reading religious texts... but perhaps its the act of getting together and singing really bad songs from the 18-1700s... then siting and staring at the preacher while he drones on about how you're saved

Stand, sing, sit, stand, sing, sit, pray, stand, sit... melts your brain...

just like staring at TV for hours on end

a reply to: Akragon

im actually starting to believe the actual organized part of religion does make people stupid...

In the sense of "lazy" and "complacent" and "gullible," yes. It does cause that.

Did you ever look into that book I told you guys about? Here's a reminder:

The God Virus: How Religion Infects Our Lives and Culture

I met this guy (the author) five years ago at a conference for seekers, agnostics, atheists, and thinkers....(on a public university campus!). His work is really significant. I highly recommend looking into it. He has youtubes and there's a pdf for it and everything!!!

a reply to: tribal

The thing is, being raised in the faith I actually get the whole psychology of wanting to 'live right to please God'

I respect and hold high esteem for those who do so. It's not easy walking the path of righteousness.

But

'Living right' is not an open ticket to look down on those of us who do not / cannot follow suit.

We're all human and one way or another we are all imperfect. True love is accepting other humans - warts and all - and not telling them how they should live, instead being there for them with open arms when they need you.

a reply to: markosity1973

Living right to please god is definitely something that can screw people up, My wife whose family is Jewish went to a private christian school as a kid for a year or two because it was a decent school, the problem was with some of the teachers and their views. She was actually terrified as a child that she was going to hell be cause she wasn't baptized which was something taught by some, not all, of here teachers. As a kid though we look to adults to teach us the truth and tell us how the world works and for the most part we take what they say as gospel, so to speak.

I'm glad we both ( I'm from a catholic background) realized that we weren't beholden to the holes our families or cultures tried to shove our personal pegs into. We love our families and I'm glad they loved us enough to except who we are even if we don't follow the family traditions. Not everyone is so lucky.

originally posted by: markosity1973
a reply to: tribal

The thing is, being raised in the faith I actually get the whole psychology of wanting to 'live right to please God'

I respect and hold high esteem for those who do so. It's not easy walking the path of righteousness.

But

'Living right' is not an open ticket to look down on those of us who do not / cannot follow suit.

We're all human and one way or another we are all imperfect. True love is accepting other humans - warts and all - and not telling them how they should live, instead being there for them with open arms when they need you.

a reply to: nemonimity

When done wrong and people become fanatics about getting every detail right, it can lead to things like ISIS.

When taken that far, living right makes one an enemy of society.

originally posted by: Cinrad
a reply to: auto3000

According to the Bible, no one goes to hell for what they do, they go because they don't care about what they do. I have done things that I am sorry for. I should be damned for what I have done. BUT I have told God I am sorry and I have asked Him to make it right (almost like if I could turn back time). God has provided a substitute for me, Jesus. Jesus died so I won't have to. That is the gospel message, Jesus died for you - if you want to accept it.

More than that, if you ask Him, Jesus will come in to your life and actually change the way you feel and things you want to do and actually make it possible to live a good life free from sin. You will still let the corrupt flesh dominate your spirit some times, and then you repent and accept what Jesus did for you. "want us to experience life at it's fullest and to be happy here on earth?" Yes, that is why if you ask Jesus in to your life you can be healed of anything and live a full and happy life.

When you get before God to be judged, you can't point to all the good things you did because it only takes one bad thing to be damned. But if you point to the cross and say I want you to forgive me, and believe He can because of the cross, then the Bible promises you will be saved from damnation.

Again this is the core of the gospel message, it boggles my mind that people still think you go to heaven if you are good and hell if you are bad!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Like AA, you can't get help unless you admit there is a problem.

originally posted by: RiptKeys
It seems in this thread people are afraid of being Christian, or speaking about a belief of faith based text. I for one, am not.

Jesus died for our sins. Which makes any argument about the old testament void.

I read your post this far and stopped. I've never wanted to make a thread about my 'experiences' so there is an every once in a while where I feel compelled to share. Who sees this, who understands ... it's not really all that important to me.

Once upon a time you could have called me a Christian. If you'd met me as a young man, you may have connected me to Christianity, but most probably wouldn't have.

Later I became acquainted with 'The Spirit'. It was like shaking hands with God. So ... I know there is a higher being. Let there be no doubt ... God is real ... and God is amongst us (much as he is described by The Bible without all that ordering around type junk).

But ... what I found most remarkable ... was the text of the bible that is ascribed to Christ ... can at times be exactly what we, in this space and time, need to know to communicate directly with God. It was that way for me ... yet I am not the Shepherd.

Cheers

He's ALL loving, BUT cross him once and pay for eternity? Jealousy is a sin, but he's extremely jealous (look at the first 3 commandments)? Wrath is bad, but oh boy does he have that! Thou shalt not kill, but look how many he's killed in the bible, you know, word of god. Again, Thou shalt not kill, UNLESS it's random brown people in the middle east that our Government and media (who we should NEVER trust) says we should kill.

Jesus Christ "Christians of ATS", have some consistency. Should we forgive people, or kill people? Should we help poor people or condemn them? Are we ALL made in Christ's image, or are some of the wealthier folks better?

a reply to: mymymy

The irony of it all is that if those people who judge and dislike us were to put their swords down, they would discover we otherwise share a lot in common when you move past our sexual orientation / gender identity.

a reply to: markosity1973

Exactly Mark, but they're bent on the certainty that because they go to church and /or can call themselves "Christians" they they are better than us, even though their own book tells them they're not

The only reason God created gays is because they wanted more like him around the planet

originally posted by: mymymy
a reply to: markosity1973

Exactly Mark, but they're bent on the certainty that because they go to church and /or can call themselves "Christians" they they are better than us, even though their own book tells them they're not

Sadly, it's part of the control grid that the good 'ol book touts.

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff
I think God couldnt give 2 shytes who you stick it to provided your both willing.

Its people using religion as an excuse to control people who have the problem, not God.

Youre safe dude, you can come out of the closet now

If there's a supreme being it may be that they may not care about willing versus unwilling with regards to anything(Assume an animal painfully killed slowly while conscious and aware by another animal. Humans are nothing more than another animal, look at nature to the fate of animals throughout the eons). Might be potential a reason for such a being to not interfere even if they had the power.

originally posted by: dreamingawake

originally posted by: mymymy
a reply to: markosity1973

Exactly Mark, but they're bent on the certainty that because they go to church and /or can call themselves "Christians" they they are better than us, even though their own book tells them they're not

Sadly, it's part of the control grid that the good 'ol book touts.

Correction, good ol man told them that's what the book taught.