The fact is that the Israelis are on the land and you Israelis haters are just going to have to live with the fact.

The fact is that the Palestinians are on the land and you Palestinian haters are just going to have to live with the fact.


Neither race or religion will ever leave Israel. You may as well ask White Americans or Native Americans to leave the US.

Blame is not the issue here now. Blame has to be swept aside if peace is to be achieved.
Laying blame at either door only serves to lengthen the war.

Blame blocks the path to reconciliation.


Blame is only useful if you are going to judge somebody and pass a sentence upon them.
Neither side need sentencing. They need exactly the opposite.

Many Americans are aware of the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty in 1967, which killed 34 Americans. Israel has always claimed that attack was a mistake. The commander of the Liberty and other survivors have no doubt the Israeli action was deliberate and premeditated. The Israelis jammed five out of six communication frequencies used by the Liberty during the attack --almost succeeding in muffling their desperate calls for help.

LOL!
An american carrier heard the distress calls from the liberty (a spy ship) but were overruled by admirals on direct orders from the president.
It was a spy ship, spying on israel, i'd have torpedoed the damn thing too, and they spent most of the time they had left destroying equipment and throwing documents into weighted bags so it couldnt have been recovered.

According to my knowledge...we still shoot spies, right?

I disagree you
According to the fact that US is providing every single weapons used by Israel, I don't think US had any interests to spy Israel. What could they learn that they didn't already know ?

But they had many more interests in spiyng soviet relationships with arabs foreign.

That's my opinion.

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Salem]

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Salem]

They were seeing how israels own weapons were performing, America still wont sell israel certain kinds of weapons, so naturally the israeli's build their own (certain guns, ammunition and nukes)

Originally posted by Salem
I don't think US have any interests to spy Israel. What could they learn that they didn't already know ?

Ummmm. Loads?
Don't all countries have secrets that they don't share?

I'd have shot the bugger out of the water too.
But that's just 'cos I'm vindictive!!!

Without any warnings ? With such allies US doesn't need any ennemies...

It's not logic.

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Salem]

I would say there were NO such people as named Palestinians in the holy land at the implementation of the Balfour Declaration. The area disputed was populated by Bedoiuns poeple who considered themselves Ottoman Turks and effindis. The Jewish immigrants bought parcels of land from these and other Arab speaking people who were there. There was no expelling. The Transjordan was once part of the land carved out for Israel in the B.D. by the Brittish and in short time, handed over this land (essentially Jordan now) to Abdullah the Hashemite from the tribe of Ibn Saud. When this happened it violated Article 5 of the Mandate given by the United Nations 4july22. The real palestinians are still in Jordan cold anger, and they can live there in peace and happiness if only they were allowed to. They are not allowed to because they are being used as (for decades now, and I remember when Yasser Arrafat was what he truly was- a killer of the PLO) pawns to drive Israel into the sea.
You seem to have cold anger that borders on the irrartional when it comes to western/judeo christian though and society. Why? Does anyone ever give thought to why most of the world holds Jews in disdain? Who else was Jewish that we know? Just think about it.

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Tyriffic]

Another danger lies in not recognizing the difference between Hamas and the Palestinians.
The Palesinians themselves need to be encouraged to fight against Hamas. They won't be inclined to do this unless the world helps them atleast a little.
I'm for radical reform in the area. How about dual governments, Arab and Israeli, ruling one country together. Perhaps have an alternating Arab/Israeli president/PM on top. It's never been tried, it may not work, but the two sides Must be united as one. Immeadiately.
That way, any Hamas attack would be an attack against the whole nation - israelis and arabs, both - and everyone who truly wants peace can fight together to eliminate one of the main threats to that peace.

Or maybe they don't want peace after all.
Because people who want peace make SACRIFICES.

[Edited on 25-6-2003 by quango]

From what I gather Illmatic was merely trying to point out that the people in the land of Israel/Palestine are degenerate. They are not the ones that Shem and Abraham breed and lead. They are outcasts. They have defied the the will of God and Allah by having disdain for their brethren. That is the point Illmatic was trying to make. (I think)

You people shouldn't be so quick to judge. That is part of the problem in Israel/Palestine. It is the blame game.

Just read what Leveller said in his last post. It makes sense. Just see for yourself.

You See?

Originally posted by Fury
so where's that famous muslim tolerance for the children of the book i keep hearing about?

It's there. But the Jews are not the Children of the Book.

Originally posted by Abraham Virtue

All I can say is you're pathetic for even daring to say that suicide (homicide) bombers are acting to protect their people and will go straight to heaven. Last time I checked good people and heros don't shoot at babies and blow up pizza stores. If you differ with that opinion, you're sick. Plain and simple.

Okay, I will agree with that above stated quote but all the other stuff that was posed by others as a defense mechanism for the murderous Israeli government is quite dense if you ask me. If you people haven't noticed it isn't CA going against his brethren in Israel/Palestine, it is him going against the Israeli government. There is a big difference between being against the government of a people and the people of that government themselves.

Unfortonately when ever Israeli crimes are mentioned people who try and dispute them automatically take the position that the one who is against those crimes is against all the people within that nation. You don't here that in America. You don't here Americans calling the guy who dispises the Bush doctrine haters of Americans. Wonder why that is????

Probably because people can't realize that Israelis control the media and they get ALL of their news from a foreign entity. Just observe for yourself. If a news agency doesn't have Jews in it's top ranking positions than that news source is often deemed anti-Semetic. And for good reason too, cause often they are. Nonetheless the bias for Jews is so strong here in America and in Britian that one finds that the truth is often distorted or ignored by those who fail to believe it. "Blah Blah Blah" is their come back. Some arguement.

It is said that smart people like Leveller and David fail to see that everything Cold Anger says was cold hard fact. Instead they deny these truths and struggle to come up with any viable reason for doing so. Someone mentioned that the reason Jews are allowed automatic citizenship in Israel is so the Jews would FINALLY have a home. Well yes, that is true, I don't think anyone will disagree with that. However they do disagree with the fact that the same doesn't go for the oppressed in other lands. People like the Palestinians. If the Israeli government would have opened their arms to dispossessed Arabs from Jordan and other nations of the Middle East than the situation wouldn't be half as bad as it is now.

The point Cold Anger is trying to make is that this government in Israel is corrupt. Not just corrupt, but racist, murderous, oppressive, tyrannical, ruthless, and segregationalist. How people can deny that is beyond me. They must be brainwashed.


Abraham

I was gonna reply to them, but basiclly i am sick of saying that i am not anti semitic, people just tries to turn around the MATTER OF THE THREAD, if that is not enough to judge "that democracy" then tell me who is here brainwashed...

Originally posted by CoLD aNGeR

Originally posted by Leveller
Blah blah blah.



Leveller u are telling me with this post that:
Or u read half of my posts
Or u don´t want to read the parts i said 200000 times that i am not anti jew, but u must have a reason for say all the time, because is the only thing you keep saying

Then if u are like that i should call you racist with the arabs for that SO IRRATIONAL comment:


Next time you call me anti-semitist, i will asume u have no other way to disscuss a matter with me, because u say nothing, u don´t disscuss the facts and just creating tension....

U use it because of all the negative things i said of them, but if they do it why i am the responsable?


Your way to finish this would be:
You are Anti-Arab Pro-Israel !!!
(but is not my way to disscuss a matter just to show u what i see in your posts)

Then I guess we agree to disagree. The reason I see myself posting so many pro-Israeli points is because there is no balance here. Everyone seems to be pushing the Palestinian point of view. If everyone were pushing Isreal's case, believe me I would post my logic on behalf of the Palestinians.
I favour neither side. I only want balance.

I see you as coming to these threads with an unbalanced view. You start these blame threads. If you weren't starting them, it would have been much more difficult for me to form an opinion of you. By posting these new threads I see you as trying to upset the balance.

As I have stated time and time again - I favour neither side. I don't look for the blame in this subject. The only time I post blame, it is to counter what I see as unreasonable logic.

Blame is not the issue here. Blame is not going to solve the problems. But ALL I see you doing is posting blame. Is it so un-natural for me to form my opinion of you from that reasoning?

I wouldn't say that it is un-natural, but I would say that it is unfair. Think about it this way, if you allow the balance factor to upset or distort you views then you are only hiding from the possible truths on one of those balanced opinions. Basically you are contributing to the upset in balance by trying to balance it out. Does that make sense.

This is just a suggestion so don't take it as an order:

Why don't you just ask those that look to upset the balance to pose an arguement for the other side. Let them do all the upsetting and unfair balancing. If they can't supply the other arguements with some sort of clarity and reason then you know that they are just biased and you need not even say anything to prove it. For they already have. Then you yourself can say that you never contribute to the unfair and bias balance and your actual opinions can stay, well, balanced.


You See?

Originally posted by Leveller

Then I guess we agree to disagree. The reason I see myself posting so many pro-Israeli points is because there is no balance here. Everyone seems to be pushing the Palestinian point of view. If everyone were pushing Isreal's case, believe me I would post my logic on behalf of the Palestinians.
I favour neither side. I only want balance.

I see you as coming to these threads with an unbalanced view. You start these blame threads. If you weren't starting them, it would have been much more difficult for me to form an opinion of you. By posting these new threads I see you as trying to upset the balance.

As I have stated time and time again - I favour neither side. I don't look for the blame in this subject. The only time I post blame, it is to counter what I see as unreasonable logic.

Blame is not the issue here. Blame is not going to solve the problems. But ALL I see you doing is posting blame. Is it so un-natural for me to form my opinion of you from that reasoning?

Balance unjustice is not pretty fair, if u want to balance it you shoukd at least see if there is something to say about it, because from the 25 things what is that makes u think none of them are true?
Or at least if u accuse me of blame all the time, u should see that i blame genocide, brutality, unjustice and all the bad stuff, not just israel but also the rest of the globe, u want just to put me in the corner of i just blame
for blame, while the first post of this thread says "
Is it Israeli Democracy or "Jewish Democracy", you be the judge. Are you aware that: "
So i am not showing any point of view of myself i just posted the info, afterwards i said what i think about it, as everyone else...
I just don't see the point to defend genocide anyway, i didn't say that the palestinians where doing good, but u should also know about the mossad and their inflitrated people in all the terrorist groups next to israel...
They know all dude, and look at the laws, Palestinians are trated like "jews in the 2nd world wide war"...
I do not put a wrong balance, reality does it for me

Another thing i did not know is the help from HUGE companies all over the world to the Govermebnt of Israel: Is pretty amazing how companies like Coca-Cola, Mc Donalds, AT&T, and many more and giving away millions of $ to help out Israel. So tiny so rich....


-Just flip with this:


According to the Virtual Israel website[6] on October 14, 1998, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu presented a select group of international business people with the highest tribute ever awarded by the "State of Israel". The Jubilee Award, marking Israel’s fiftieth year of independence, recognizes those individuals and organizations, that through their investments and trade relationships, have done the most to strengthen the Israeli economy.


The award list was divided up according to the national origin of the businessmen, and also by industry.



Aerospace
Dr. Vance Coffman Lockheed Martin Corporation
Mr. Karl J. Krapek Pratt & Whitney
Mr. Harry Stonecipher Boeing

Automotive
Dr. Ferdinand Piech Volswagon AG

Building Materials
Dr. John M. Schubert Pioneer International Ltd
Mr. Peter L. Young RMC Group plc

Chemicals
Dr. John J. Faber ICC Industries Inc.
Mr. Arie Genger Trans-Resources Inc

Commerce
Sir Richard Greenbury Marks & Spencer
Mr. J. E. Lagerweij Hema B.V.
Mr. David Mandle James Richardson Pty.Ltd
Dr. Michael Otto Dr. Michael Otto
Mr. Joseph Wilf Garden Homen

Diamonds
Mr. Nicholas Frank Oppenheimer De Beers Consolidated Mines Ltd

Finance
Mr. Michael Abeles JGL Investments
Mr. Ted Arison Arison Investments Ltd.
Mr David Azrieli Canpro Investment Ltd.
Mr. Jan Baan Baan Company
Mr. Paul Bann Baan Foundation
Mr. Ronald Cohen Apax Partners & Co . Ltd
Mr. Erwin D. Eisenberg Eisenberg Group
Dr. Leslie Fritz Gunther Frankel Altira Investments Ltd
Mr. Robert J. Hurst Goldman Sachs & Co.
Mr. Jonathan Kolber Claridge Foundation
Mr. Stephen Koseff Investec Bank Ltd.
Mr. Bruce Rappaport Inter-Maritime Group
Mr. Joseph Safra Banco Safra
Mr. Bernard Schreirer CP Holdings Ltd

Food
Mr. G. Allan Andreas Archer Daniel Midland
Mr. Peter Brabeck-Letmathe Nestle S.A.
Mr. Franck Riboud Danone

Glass
Mr. William Davidson Guardian Industries Corp

High Tech
Mr. Eric Benhamou 3 Com
Mr. Richard H. Brown Esq Cable & Wireless
Mr Marshall Butler AVX Corporation and KYOCERA Corporation
Ms Judith Estrin Cisco Systems Inc.
Mr Christopher C. Galvin Motorola Inc.
Mr. Abraham Gesundheit Tensal International AG
Mr. Vladimir Goussinsky Most Media
Mr. Chek Ngee Khoo Hutchinson Telecommunications Ltd
Mr. Ronald Lauder RSL Communication Ltd
Mr. Ted Leonsis AOL studios
Mr. Ken Levy KLA-Tencor Corporation
Dr. Dan Maydan Applied Materials Inc.
Mr. Fernand B. Sarrat Cylink Corporation
Mr. Albert Soffa Kulicke & Soffa Industries Inc.
Dr. Heinrich Von Pierer Siemens
Dr. Felix Zandman Vishay Intertechnology Inc.

Hotels and Hospitality
Mr. David Lewis Isrotel Hotel Management
Mr. David Taic Nahal Group
Mr. Alexander Tesler Lexan-Israel Princess Hotel

Media
Mr. Vladimir Goussinsky Most Media
Mr. Ronald Lauder RSL Communications Ltd
Mr. F. David Radler Hollinger International Inc.

Personal Care
Mr. Pascal Castres St Martin L' Oreal
Mr. Roger S. Fine Johnson & Johnson
Mr. Leon Koffler Super-Pharm[Israel] Ltd
Mr. Lucien Nessim Sara Lee Personal Products
Mr. Robert P. Van der Merwe Kimberley-Clarke Europe

Pharmaceuticals
Mr. Ernesto Bertarelli Ares Serono International
Harold Snyder Teva Pharmaceutical Industries

Plastics
Mr. Robert K. Kraft The Kraft Group and New England Patriots
Mr.John M. Trani The Stanley Works

Real Estate/ Construction
Mr. Sam Halpern Atlantic Reality Development Corporation
Mr.Henry Moskowitz Henry Moskowitz Real Estate

Textiles
Mr. Michael A. Trachtenberg ICF Industries

Transportation
Mr. John M. Beck Canadian Highways International Corporation


English based Award recipients

Sir Richard Greenbury Chairman Marks & Spencer

For more information about M&S see the Islamic Human Rights website .

Mr. Ronald Cohen , Chairman, Apax Partners & Co. Ltd
Mr. Cohen is Chairman of Apax Partners & Co. Ltd, which is a substantial investor of institutional venture capital in “Israeli” growth companies. According to Virtual Israel “The State of “Israel” recognizes the recipient as one of the visionaries who have done the most to facilitate Israel's integration into the global economy and to realize its world-class business potential.”

Mr. David Lewis, President,Isrotel Hotel Management Lewis Trust Group Ltd (parent company of River Island) River Island [7] a well known fashion clothing chain. A possible Hotel development in Aqaba in Jordan [8]. Britannia Pacific Properties a diversified international investment company, with headquarters in London, England

Mr. Robert P. van der Merwe President Kimberly-Clark Europe
Kimberly-Clark is one of the largest consumer companies in the world with a turnover of $14 billion. The brands that make it a market leader in almost every sector in which it competes include KLEENEX facial tissues, ANDREX products, KOTEX products and HUGGIES disposable baby products

Mr. Richard H. Brown, Esq.Chief Executive Cable & Wireless Plc.
Cable and Wireless took a $120 million stake in Bezek, the Israeli telecommunications company [9]

Mr. Nicholas Frank Oppenheimer ,Chairman, De Beers Consolidated Mines Ltd.

Mr. Bernard Schreier,Chairman, CP Holdings Ltd.

Mr. Peter L. Young,Group Chief Executive,RMC Group Plc.



Israeli Exporters [10]

1. Aladdin Knowledge Systems a global leader in software and Internet security.

2. Alliance exports tyres to over 50 countries worldwide, 70% of which are sold to the leading industrial nations including the United States, Germany, the U.K., France and Italy.

2. Av-Gad is a manufacturer of integrated security systems for residential, commercial and industrial applications

3. Baccara was founded in 1964 and has been manufacturing solenoid valves since 1974.

4. Delek, developes and produces industrial, automotive oils and lubricants, production and reconditioning of metal containers. Delkol also operates a plastic moulding plan.

5. Elco Holdings Ltd. ("ELCO"), in the field of distribution transformers. energy transmission and distribution, e.g. power transformers, high and low voltage switchboards, electrical meters, rectifiers and power supplies. mainly for the Israel Electric Corporation "IEC").Electra Consumer Products Ltd .

ELCO acquired the largest manufacturer of home air-conditioners in France, with sales and distribution offices in Germany and the U.K.

6. Galaxy Aerospace produces and markets the Galaxy super midsize intercontinental business jet, the Astra SPX midsize transcontinental business jet, and the Westwind business jet. These aircraft are manufactured by Israel Aircraft Industries in Tel Aviv

7. Gamatronic is the leading power electronics company in Israel with links to Marconi, Telrad, Lucent [who have AT&T connections], Motorola, and Siemens

8. Orckit Communications Ltd are involved in Next Generation Digital Subscriber Line (DSL) services to homes in both the U.S. and Israel.

9. Tadiran Electronic Systems leads in the fields of C4I, Electronic Warfare and Spectrum Control.

10. Bickel Flowers Ltd. is a producer of flowers .

11. Fields of Israel Ltd., a leading producer and exporter of dried flowers and decorative fruits.

12. Ginsberg Flowers delivery in "Israel" and world wide.

Investors in Israel [11]

1. Motorola[12] and General Motors affiliate, Delco, are considering a $1 billion chip plant in Israel.

2. Intel announced plans to build a $1.6 billion plant.

3. U.S. group Shamrock invested a quarter billion dollar in conglomerate Koo Industries.

3. Volkswagen plans to invest $210 million in a Dead Sea Works Magnesium Metal Plant.

4. British Gas ended the boycott of major international oil companies on exploration in "Israel", by investing in the Zionist state.5. Israeli power electronics company Bezel is a partner with AT & T and part of . the [Concert ] organisation. BT is involved in this as well.

Other companies known to do Business with "Israel"AT &T

AT&T, the American telecommunications giant, will host the "Israeli" Defence Force website[13]. The decision follows an attack by computer hackers which knocked down the IDF website. This was confirmed in a statement issued by the "Israeli" military October 26 2000.Estee Lauder

The American Muslims for Jerusalem[14] issued a press statement, calling for a boycott of Estee Lauder. The Chairman of Estee Lauder International Ronald Lauder is a Zionist working with the land grabbing Jewish National Fund, and opposing the right of return for Palestinians.

Benettonand Kappa

Brother Ali Abunimah [15] has exposed the Zionist links of these designer labels.

Sainsbury

Apparently Sainsbury spent a lot of money in Egypt, to tell the people to stop boycotting them, as they do NOT support Israel [Jewish Chronicle 17-11-00]. Lord David Sainsbury of Turville, who as the Minister for Science, visited Shenkar[16] College, near Tel Aviv, to promote Anglo-Israeli R&D. He also spoke at the dinner of the Britain Israel Chamber of Commerce [B-ICC] [17]. Lord Sainsbury is NOT currently a director of the company and his shares are in a trust while he is a government minister

"Israeli" software for TescoAccording to the Jewish Chronicle[18], Tesco have made a deal with an Israeli software company, Point of Sale regarding worldwide computer links

Organisations supporting the Boycott of Zionism

Green ribbon were the original co-sponsors of the Marks and Spencers boycott along with the Islamic Human Rights Commission. They have information about American companies supporting Zionism, as well as Arabic texts regarding Egyptian and Jordanian companies who trade with the Zionist state. Islamic Party of Britain[19], have joined with the Gulf based International Muslim Rights Forum (IMRF), who launched a campaign for an Islamic people's economic boycott of the USA. The campaign will be called the ABC boycott as it covers the following categories of key US consumer products:

A: Airlines (TWA), Apparel (Levi/Wrangler)

B: Banking (Citibank), Beverages (Coca Cola, Sprite, Fanta, Maxwell House Coffee,)
Baby Products (Pampers), Burger Restaurants (McDonalds)

C: Cars (GM/Ford/Chrysler), Cosmetics (Revlon, Estee Lauder), Calling Cards[AT&T), Cigarettes (Marlboro), Cleaning products (Ariel)

Brothers from the Azzam website[20] have declared a boycott on three companies Marks and Spencer, Sainsbury and Tesco. They are boycotting Sainsbury and Tesco, because they stock the free paper London Jewish News.

Originally posted by David

Many Americans are aware of the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty in 1967, which killed 34 Americans. Israel has always claimed that attack was a mistake. The commander of the Liberty and other survivors have no doubt the Israeli action was deliberate and premeditated. The Israelis jammed five out of six communication frequencies used by the Liberty during the attack --almost succeeding in muffling their desperate calls for help.

According to my knowledge...we still shoot spies, right?

Our government catches Isreali spies all the time and does nothing at all with them.