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Trump to Fund Wall by US not Mexico

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posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 04:04 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: IkNOwSTuff

I could have sworn I LIVE in this country and talk to other Americans daily about living here. But I guess those experiences mean dick huh? But hey. Say what you want. I'm not a mod and you have the right too, but your opinion means nothing to me. I'll take a hard core Trump supporter living smack dab in the Rust belt's opinion over your opinion. I think you know nothing about what it is like to live in this country and if you are basing your ENTIRE opinion on the country based on our media propaganda that makes your opinion even lesser in my eyes. At least American Trump supporters have real life examples they can allude to for their opinions.


I also talk to Americans almost daily and as of about June last year politics has been a big point of discussion, I may not directly experience life in America but Im informed quite well.
All that aside, for the point we are arguing here being a citizen or not is irrelevant.

My opinion must mean something to you, you picked it out of all the others to reply to


Dude you come across as really bitchy and butt hurt, are you still upset about the election?
It must have been really hard on all you delusional Trump haters, if you ever come to Oz Ill have a nice cozy safe space waiting for your precious and easily triggered behind

edit on 6/1/2017 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 04:05 PM
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a reply to: cavedweller88

Yep! The American taxpayers. That's who will be paying the bill. At the same time all of their nannies and housekeepers and cooks and roofers and lawn-care people disappear. Because stupid.



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 04:13 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: dr1234

originally posted by: cavedweller88
a reply to: TruMcCarthy

What hand outs are you referring to? Illegal immagants cannot apply for public assistance.


Yet they can go to public schools, use public resources, etc etc without paying taxes. Undocumented criminals.

This is a conservative lie. Illegals pay more into the system in taxes then they take out in fraudulent welfare claims.
How much do undocumented immigrants pay in taxes?

According to the Social Security Administration, there were nearly 11 million undocumented immigrants in the United States in January 2009. Factoring out kids, nonworking immigrants and those working in the underground economy and not paying taxes, the Social Security Administration estimated about 3.1 million unauthorized immigrants who worked and paid Social Security taxes in 2010.

This group and their employers generated about $13 billion in payroll taxes in 2010. The administration then subtracted about $1 billion in benefits that could’ve been received in 2010 from earnings in years when workers were unauthorized. Workers and employers contribute roughly the same amount.

I bet you didn't know that some employers put their illegals on the books so they end up paying taxes. Sure the illegals may use forged paperwork to do so, but paying taxes is paying taxes.


So these 3.1 million Illegals obviously arent doing menial jobs or working for companies who cant pay staff legal wages.

In effect what they are doing is taking jobs from actual Americans who would have paid the exact same in tax and most likely would have kept the money in the country and also due to the fact they were working not used any form of welfare.

Illegal immigrants are never going to be a plus to a countries economy, they are either working off the books and not paying tax or working on the books, paying tax but taking a job that could have been filled by your 10's of millions of unemployed citizens.

Its actually funny you read that little statistic and run with it without thinking of the bigger picture, you should take your own advice and listen to the media less



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 04:27 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: cavedweller88

Yep! The American taxpayers. That's who will be paying the bill. At the same time all of their nannies and housekeepers and cooks and roofers and lawn-care people disappear. Because stupid.


They might not disappear, maybe theyll just transform?

Transform to Nannies, cooks, cleaners who are American citizens and not illegal immigrants.

All you trump haters need to check yourselves, your not prescient or even wise, 90% of you gave Trump zero chance of winning the rebup primary let alone becoming POTUS.

Maybe you all dont know shyte?



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 04:28 PM
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haha Vicente Fox tweets

"TRUMP, when will you understand that I am not paying for that [eff]en wall. Be clear with US tax payers. They will pay for it."

Twitter



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 04:31 PM
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a reply to: IkNOwSTuff

They're not "taking" jobs from anyone. Companies and individuals intentionally hire them for the lower wages. This is especially true in construction, agriculture, and landscaping/yardwork.

Several years ago, Alabama & Georgia passed strong legislation against illegal immigrants. It resulted in them having an agricultural crisis with crops being left to rot in the fields. There are numerous articles about it, but since sources aren't really trusted here anymore, I'll post links from Forbes and The Guardian. The Forbes article shows the situation in Georgia was so bad that officials there started sending prisoners to go pick the crops. Yeah...

The problem here isn't that they're taking jobs from Americans; the problem is that companies don't want to pay real wages for those job positions. So the illegal labor pool is used because the wages are cheaper, the workers typically don't get any of the benefits that legit employees get, and the undocumented workers can be shorted at any time. And if they complain, they get immigration services called on them.



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 04:39 PM
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a reply to: Indigo5



Trump LIED about Mexico paying for the stupid wall...and now wants MY TAXPAYER dollars to pay for his LIE so he can appear almost honest in building SOME of a wall that will do NOTHING about the problem and PAY-OFF his buddies in construction. Corrupt ...worse president elect ever.


So, Trump is going to put His Great Wall on a credit card, just like George W Bush put trillions on a war credit card. Or, maybe he will have his Russians money men loan the money to the US.

The Republicans have wasted money on their ideas before, but this one is laughable! Just goes to show, Republicans spend just as much as Democrats, just for different things. Trump is insane!



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 04:39 PM
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a reply to: VinylTyrant

Point is a project such as a space elevator would open up new horizons, allowing us to transport materials, build structures, habitats and vehicles in low Earth orbit at a fraction of the cost we do today.

Eventually opening up the path to colonization of the Moon and beyond. Essentially allowing any nation that possessed such a device to pave the way regarding new Human frontiers.

Think of the jobs and new industry, new future, where America could lead the way if she choose to undertake such a scheme rather than build stupid nonsensical walls in an attempt to stave off the inevitable?

Just a thought.

edit on 6-1-2017 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 04:46 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

We had a similar issue in Oz and we sorted it by advertising it to Legal tourists, problem more than solved.

I understand the under the table work situation and appreciate most Americans probably wouldnt do the stereotypical immigrant jobs but jobs that are on the books and taxed?

Apparently there are 3.1 million Illegals working in the US on the books, show me that these are crappy unfillable jobs and Ill shut up.

From your post it comes across like you are supportive of business owners taking advantage of illegal workers by paying them less, is that the case?

Thats also the other thing all you "let them in" types seem to forget, by letting them in you are leaving them open to exploitation and also encouraging others to come and expose themselves to all sorts of abuse while making the journey.

If all you people had brains half the size of your hearts you would be more interested in improving their homelands so they have no reason to put themselves in danger and break the law to enter the States



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 04:46 PM
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a reply to: desert

You'll probably notice that they only care about the federal deficit and a balanced federal budget when Democrats are in control.

a reply to: andy06shake

I agree completely.



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 05:19 PM
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a reply to: IkNOwSTuff

You shouldn't make so many assumptions. I like to look at all sides of an issue to understand it, which is why I like to point out opposing views.



We had a similar issue in Oz and we sorted it by advertising it to Legal tourists, problem more than solved.

Which issue are you talking about? And how would advertising "it" to legal tourists help? Are you saying your country allows tourists to also have temporary work visas?



I understand the under the table work situation and appreciate most Americans probably wouldnt do the stereotypical immigrant jobs but jobs that are on the books and taxed?

This is completely on the employers and the contractors that hire the undocumented workers (like some temp services).

I'm not sure how your country does it, but in my State, we have a massive temp service industry ("temporary worker agencies"). Basically the temp service will hire workers (calling them something like "independent contractors"), then loan out those workers to larger companies. The temp service does all of the background checks, resume checks, drug tests, etc. The larger company pays a set wage to the temp service for that loaned out worker. This arrangement shields the larger company from all benefits and other responsibilities to that worker, including pensions/severance pay, healthcare, legal liability, etc.

The temp services can and do hire undocumented workers, specifically for lower wage jobs. Some even specialize in "at risk" workers like people with bad credit, criminal records, etc (though this varies by the city; I'm in a big city so there's a little of everything here). The larger company has complete ignorance of those workers' legal status and temp workers can be fired at any time, for any reason, or for no reason at all. And since they're not actually employees of the large company, the worker is simply reassigned to another company.



Apparently there are 3.1 million Illegals working in the US on the books, show me that these are crappy unfillable jobs and Ill shut up.

Sorry buddy, but I'm not doing the research for you. Go check whatever place you're quoting for the 3.1 million figure, and if it's reputable, it should give info on those jobs. Though the temp service situation I listed above definitely plays a part in this in my State.



From your post it comes across like you are supportive of business owners taking advantage of illegal workers by paying them less, is that the case?

Like I said above, I simply like to see all sides of an issue before forming an opinion on it. Though you should probably know that I'm a proud socialist that hates the exploitation of labor. So you can form your own conclusions on that one.



Thats also the other thing all you "let them in" types seem to forget, by letting them in you are leaving them open to exploitation and also encouraging others to come and expose themselves to all sorts of abuse while making the journey.

That's simply not true. I absolutely love immigration and have met some amazing immigrants throughout my life. I'm also strongly against the human trafficking system and oppressions of others. It doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" approach.

My solution to the immigration "crisis" revolves more around helping other countries become so economically amazing that their citizens don't feel the need to leave for better opportunities. I'd still love for people to go to other countries; I just don't want it to be from desperation. But that's another conversation altogether.



If all you people had brains half the size of your hearts you would be more interested in improving their homelands so they have no reason to put themselves in danger and break the law to enter the States

I guess my brain's pretty big, eh?

Although you should probably know that the majority of "undocumented workers/illegal immigrants" enter my country legally. This includes people who overstayed their tourist visas; people who are working in violation of their tourists visas (or our numerous visa-less arrangements); people's whose work visas have expired; etc.

Even many of the undocumented ones thought they were coming in legally w/legal paperwork, only to find out later that the documentation was forged, their travel agent was actually cartel affiliated, or they were misled by the agent. That person may fly into the country on a legit commercial airliner, through a legit airport, have a legit passport, and have a legit visa. But the legit job recommendation they were given by their agent or relative turns out to be in violation of their visa, since they were given a tourist visa even though they paid for a work visa. This hypothetical person is still counted as an undocumented worker and demonized as an illegal immigrant.

ETA: This is one reason why a lot of people say the Wall debate is based in racism. The Great Wall of Trump will do nothing to prevent or slow down undocumented workers/illegal immigrants from Canada, Europe, Asia, or even your country. It only focuses on Hispanic people & completely ignores the undocumented workers from other demographics.
edit on 6-1-2017 by enlightenedservant because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-1-2017 by enlightenedservant because: spotted a typo. there are probably more but meh



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 05:38 PM
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He he owns the wall dictates which way the gates open and close.

Be careful what you wish for. Might be for keeping everybody in.



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 05:51 PM
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originally posted by: Arnie123
a reply to: cavedweller88

Yet they do get them. I've literally seen illegals come on and pay with lonestar cards.


How do you know they were illegal? Did you ask them? Or do you just view all immigrants or brown people as illegal?



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 05:54 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant




Which issue are you talking about? And how would advertising "it" to legal tourists help? Are you saying your country allows tourists to also have temporary work visas?


Our agricultural work, we have a whole industry of temporary work visa holders although we just call them backpackers.




This is completely on the employers and the contractors that hire the undocumented workers (like some temp services).


Its also on the gov who dont enforce existing laws or deport these people when found, its also on the immigrants themselves who without exception are aware they are breaking the law of the country they have come to.

we also have a large temp workforce, works exactly the same way here.




Sorry buddy, but I'm not doing the research for you. Go check whatever place you're quoting for the 3.1 million figure, and if it's reputable, it should give info on those jobs. Though the temp service situation I listed above definitely plays a part in this in my State.


the 3.1 figure was given by someone in this thread who was saying these taxed illegals are doing everyone a favour and benefiting the economy by paying taxes as if Americans in those jobs wouldnt be.




That's simply not true. I absolutely love immigration and have met some amazing immigrants throughout my life. I'm also strongly against the human trafficking system and oppressions of others. It doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" approach.


So because you love immigrants its not true?

Sorry but it is true, these people make a dangerous journey of 1000's of miles because they know when they get to the US they will be allowed in, a MASSIVE proportion of these people are beaten, robbed, raped or otherwise abused due to their vulnerability, the fear of consequences is removed when you know these people wont report crime due to fear of being deported.
Due to your love you may not see it but when you are for people entering illegally you are unconsciously condoning them being taken advantage of because almost without exception this is what happens




My solution to the immigration "crisis" revolves more around helping other countries become so economically amazing that their citizens don't feel the need to leave for better opportunities. I'd still love for people to go to other countries; I just don't want it to be from desperation. But that's another conversation altogether.


Thats exactly what I said just not as eloquently, glad to see we agree on something





This is one reason why a lot of people say the Wall debate is based in racism. The Great Wall of Trump will do nothing to prevent or slow down undocumented workers/illegal immigrants from Canada, Europe, Asia, or even your country. It only focuses on Hispanic people & completely ignores the undocumented workers from other demographics.


Well doing a quick google search shows that more than 60% of illegal immigrants come by land, if the wall stops even half of those or better yet discourages people from making the journey, then its been money, time and effort well spent.

Im not anti refugee Im anti illegal economic migrant, the refugees who are deserving of our help are currently genuinely in danger and living in refugee camps



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 06:29 PM
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originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: digital01anarchy

Have you seen how much it costs the government to buy a toilet seat? How much do you think 1000 miles of razor wire will cost? Not only that but then there's the extra construction for evenly spaced watch towers along that 1000 miles. And then on top of that you need to hire people to man those watch towers 24/7. Then on top of that you need to buy the equipment that will actually allow those people to their job. We're talking billions of dollars on top of the already estimated $38 billion wall.

That's a lot of money that could be spent on the citizens of the US. If some illegal immigrants reap the benefits as well who the f*** cares? The vast majority of that money is going to help the people of this country. But no! We should instead spend that money on symbolic gesture that politicians say will stop illegal immigrants (it won't) from coming and taking jobs Americans don't want.

It's funny how the Right tries to criticize Obama's employment numbers because the majority of new jobs are service positions. What kind of jobs do you think are going to open when (read: if) this wall gets built and it actually stops illegal immigration (it won't)?


Lol everything you have said is incorrect. Everyone except liberals care if illegals reap the benefits because its money we have to pay back. #2 only 15 percent of people coming over the border do jobs nobody likes lol aka farm work.#3 Obamas employment numbers are fake do some actual research on the subject and you will find unemployment is actually closer to 30 percent and under him the middle class has been shrinking which mean jobs at 40 to 50 thousand a year are harder to find.#4 first off this wall is going to be like a loan from mexico so eventually it will pay for its self.

Mexico gets government aid something like 300 million over a year so if they dont get aid from us we save 300 million a year. goods and services taxed, on money transaction from USA to mexico will get taxed .We are their biggest consumer of goods.also panmex mexico biggest gas supplier cant refine the oil so they sold it to the usa. Lol how much tax do you think we are going to put on their gas? In a month once tariffs and us aid stops flowing into mexico they are going to beg us to build it themselves to lift the tariffs.



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 06:39 PM
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when the illegals are deported legal citizens will take those jobs and we can be sure that the legals will pay taxes on the money they earn, unlike illegals who we have no way of knowing how many of them do or don`t pay taxes on the money they earn.
Legals who take those jobs will spend money on gas,food clothing etc just like the illegals do and they will have more money to spend than the illegals do because legal workers will have to be paid minimum wage unlike the illegals.

you might say " legal americans won`t take those jobs" do you assume that all Hispanics are in the country illegally? do you assume that Hispanics who are in the country legally won`t take those jobs?

then there is the issue of illegals who commit crimes and cost the taxpayers a fortune.
uninsured illegals who get in accidents cost all of us more in increased insurance premiums.

it is estimated that there are at least 11 million illegals in the U.S. those people have to live somewhere which creates fewer available homes and higher rent costs for legal citizens.as supply drops prices rise.

the ripple effect that illegals cause cost us more than anyone will ever know.

I don`t care who builds the wall or who pays for it, a wall will make the country safer and more prosperous.

there is no downside to building a wall, if the wall causes the country to be less safe and less prosperous then we can build lots of gates in the wall and leave them open for the illegals to come back in.I have a strong feeling that we won`t be needing those gates.



edit on 6-1-2017 by Tardacus because: (no reason given)

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posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 06:48 PM
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a reply to: dr1234

If there are other benefits I'd be open to hear them but so far I haven't heard of anything good. He's appointed science haters, christian fundamentalists, rich executives to positions of power, he's stated he's going to repeal laws that "harm" oil companies (hello more flint Michigans) he wants to move our Embassy in Israel into a split city, hes backed by Bibi who's a Jewish supremacist.. It's insane.. The whole thing about him bringing jobs back to the US is as fanciful as Bill Clinton being responsible for the healthy economy of the 90s, correlation definitely does not equal causation.

The wall is just another dog and pony show to get to peoples feelers, it preys on the stupidity and lazyness of the average american and just stacks up more # to trickle down to everyone who isn't rich. If there is any other benefit I'd bet on it being that the US will go the way of the dodo because like that old timey guy said, a House divided cannot stand. And that's what he the right and the left are all about. At least we're quickly approaching the point where there won't be anything to fight about other than the requirements to survive :/



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 07:03 PM
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a reply to: IkNOwSTuff


Our agricultural work, we have a whole industry of temporary work visa holders although we just call them backpackers.

Ah ok. We have agricultural work visas too (like the H-2A program). Though that still hasn't stopped many in the industry from intentionally employing undocumented workers, like the Alabama and Georgia examples I linked previously.



Its also on the gov who dont enforce existing laws or deport these people when found, its also on the immigrants themselves who without exception are aware they are breaking the law of the country they have come to. we also have a large temp workforce, works exactly the same way here.

I'm glad you brought this part up. How can govt agencies enforce laws when they're constantly underfunded? We have an entire political party here that openly loves to shut down and defund our State/local/federal governments, and drastically reduce the number of employees in our govt agencies. They constantly cut govt budgets, which leads to fewer agents available to enforce the existing laws. The policy is literally called "Starve the Beast".

That's why a lot of the criticism doesn't make sense to me. They openly want to shut down the govt and intentionally cripple its ability to function. Then they blame the crippled govt for not being able to enforce the existing immigration laws. This is one reason I concluded that they really don't want to shut down illegal immigration & undocumented workers. They have no problem hiring those workers and seemingly love the cheap labor pool. I think they only stigmatize them so they can keep those workers in the shadows, where they can continue to be exploited.



the 3.1 figure was given by someone in this thread who was saying these taxed illegals are doing everyone a favour and benefiting the economy by paying taxes as if Americans in those jobs wouldnt be.

Well if neither of us is arguing this point, we should probably leave it be for now. Although I'd guess that the temp worker system plays a huge part in it (just a guess though).



So because you love immigrants its not true? Sorry but it is true, these people make a dangerous journey of 1000's of miles because they know when they get to the US they will be allowed in, a MASSIVE proportion of these people are beaten, robbed, raped or otherwise abused due to their vulnerability, the fear of consequences is removed when you know these people wont report crime due to fear of being deported. Due to your love you may not see it but when you are for people entering illegally you are unconsciously condoning them being taken advantage of because almost without exception this is what happens

Where did I say I was for illegal immigration? I said I love immigration, which I do. I also said I'm strongly against the human trafficking system and oppression of others. Neither of those implies that I'm in favor of illegal immigration. I've just studied the issue enough to know that a lot of the fearmongering doesn't match the reality on the ground.

If anything, I wish we'd do away with the restrictions we have on legal immigration from specific countries. For example, I'm almost positive that we have a restriction on the number of allowed Mexican immigrants per year. If we were actually trying to reduce the amount of illegal immigration, we'd improve the process for allowing legal immigration. Then people wouldn't have to try the illegal route in the first place. But since that would both eliminate the cheap illegal labor pool and reduce the cartels' human trafficking revenue, we won't do it.



Thats exactly what I said just not as eloquently, glad to see we agree on something





Well doing a quick google search shows that more than 60% of illegal immigrants come by land, if the wall stops even half of those or better yet discourages people from making the journey, then its been money, time and effort well spent.

Are you sure those weren't fake news sources?

In all seriousness, this is why the issue is so complicated. The US has visa-less agreements with many countries (here's the official list). This means that citizens of these countries can enter here as tourists with nothing more than a passport. But they legally can't work here without a work visa, which would make them undocumented workers/"illegal immigrants" if they did labor here.

But here's a short video of just one of the border checkpoints between El Paso, Texas and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico (start around the 13min mark).

I've personally gone through 2 of the entry checkpoint bridges. The flow of people is amazing, especially from Friday through Sunday. Everyone has to have their ID or passport checked but it's a pretty painless process unless you're one of the few people randomly selected for searches. After all, Mexico is one of our 3 biggest trade partners. So the exchange of goods, services, currency, and people is both desired and welcome.

But you can probably also see how easily it would be to walk across the border legally as a tourist and then find a reason to stay and work. Building a bigger wall will do nothing about this, especially if employers are willing to hire that worker. I literally worked w/engineers in Juarez who wanted to work at a new Wal-Mart in El Paso because it paid better. A wall won't prevent that either, especially if the engineers came in and out of the country as tourists. Some of my American colleagues even stayed across the border in El Paso, and simply commuted to Juarez every day to work.



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 07:13 PM
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a reply to: Tardacus


when the illegals are deported legal citizens will take those jobs

That simply isn't true, though. Both Alabama and Georgia had agricultural crises around 2011-2013 because of their harsh new immigration laws. Americans simply didn't fill those positions because the work conditions and/or pay weren't worth it.

Georgia even started sending literal prisoners to go pick the crops. Think about that for a second: that former slave State started sending involuntary laborers to pick its crops because the other citizens wouldn't take the jobs. I admittedly haven't looked deeper into the issue though. So feel free to provide any proof that normal citizens started applying for those jobs afterwards.

Not to mention, the part that I quoted completely ignores the people who intentionally hire undocumented workers because they're costs are cheaper. If a legal roofing contractor gives a quote for $800 on a project, how many Americans will choose it over the contractor who gives a quote for $400? How many people ask the legal status of the workers who do their yardwork, housekeeping, etc? And those are just stereotypical situations.



posted on Jan, 6 2017 @ 07:18 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

Illegal immigrants are not required to do jobs that Americans will not do. Where there are gaps in resource, bring in people legally to do those jobs.
edit on 6/1/2017 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



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