The Minuteman project seeks volunteers

just a bunch of nobodies thinking they're going to save the entire world

Damn Vagabond, Lighten up a little...I never said I wanted to see a gunfight at border towns, but I do beleive in property rights. We should protect our border's...we can agree on that can't we?


Maximu§

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Damn Vagabond, Lighten up a little...I never said I wanted to see a gunfight at border towns, but I do beleive in property rights. We should protect our border's...we can agree on that can't we?
Maximu§

Forgive me if I'm not always the "lightened up" type. Honest to God it isn't personal. I just suspect that this situation is leading up to something very bad and because of that suspicion I am a little concerned about the level of support voiced for it. This is especially true because of the few people saying things like "let's put landmines on the border". If a little pointed sarcasm and logic drives home the fact that this is probably a bad idea I'm inclined to cut loose with it.

I definately agree on property rights and in the case of property owners on the border who I have heard must keep weapons to guard against cross-border crime, they have every right to bear arms for defense and to use them if attacked.
I just think that there is a big difference between the property rights of those who live on the border and a bunch of yokels going to the border looking for trouble with people who they know will be armed. Like I said, that seems a little negligent. What if one of the minutemen gets killed? What if some Mexican kid gets killed just for crossing a line in the dirt?

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Nygdan,
Sounds like they are encouraging their people to cross the border.
Yes they are encouraging people to cross the borders illegally. Is this the RIGHT thing to do?

Nope, definitly not.

A goverment assisting / helping it's citizens to break the laws of of another country?
quote: Minutemen are observing the crossing into the US, thus They are observing US laws being broken

I just have to question how 'obvious' the law breaking is.
You know where your property line is right? So you know when someone is tresspassing right? Or is that not obvious?
The property line of my house is 'obvious' because of a nice little fence.

Ranchers in Arizona have fences that run along the border. These fences are constanly being destoyed by poeple crossing the border northward.

good, so in those instances the border is recognizable and if someone observes a person crossing it, well, now what? Do they ahve to demonstrate that the crosser is not a citizen? Or is it illegal for american citizens to leave mexico in this way?

THo I suppose crossing a fence might in itself be illegal, regardless of citizenship.

So it looks like in that specific situation these border vigilantes can detain a person until the police show up, who can then arrest them as a citizen for crossing the line (unlikely, since we all know whats going on anyway) or deport/arrest for illegal immigration.

If its later turned up that the person is an illegal immigrant, but but that the fence is in fact not the border, and the border isn't in sight, can the border vigilantes be sued by the mexican government, or by the illegal immigrant thru US courts, for illegally detaining them? Obviously the illegal immigrant can't be let into the country because of 'false citizen arrest', I wonder?

quote: If these people wish to come to the US, then they need to go through the proper channels, pay their taxes, pay for thier insurances.
Of course, only a would contend that illegals have a right to be illegals. If noting else its unfair to people who go thru the actual naturalization and visa process.
Now you have lost me. Illegals have the right to be illegal?
Pardon, i think the censors deleted a word, making the sentence somewhat unintelligible.I said, effectively, 'only an idiot would say illegals have the right to be illegally in the country'. No disagreement between us here. I think that the federal and states governments should actively seek out and remove illegals in the country, and try to be effective in stopping them from crossing the border in the first place. I also realize that this will have bad economic consequences for the US (tho apparently there is debate even on that), but I think that those consequences are worth it. I also think that we're all better off letting illegals receive medical and police attention/protection than not, just as a pragamatic matter, that we shouldn't have a nationalized language but that there should be supreme effort to get even legal immigrants to speak english, even if it results in their own language going extinct, even in Porto Rico (but perhaps thats an extremism), and also that the US should make it much much easier for people to immigrate to the US. But illegals are, well, illegal. Lock them up for a set amount of time, then upon release deport them, make them pay for the costs of their incarceration even when they are released to their home country, and work to make illegal immigration into the US a crime in mexico, so that they get sent to jail in mexico once released from US jails and deported to mexico.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

I just suspect that this situation is leading up to something very bad and because of that suspicion I am a little concerned about the level of support voiced for it. This is especially true because of the few people saying things like "let's put landmines on the border".

I just think that there is a big difference between the property rights of those who live on the border and a bunch of yokels going to the border looking for trouble with people who they know will be armed. Like I said, that seems a little negligent. What if one of the minutemen gets killed?

What if some Mexican kid gets killed just for crossing a line in the dirt?

Great post Vagabond, thanks. Time for a little perspective on this issue.

IMO - the problem is NOT with illegal immigrants - it's with businesses that rely on immigrant labor - and governments and policies that help them set it up, and keep it going.

If ya wanna fight, at least go after the real enemy!!!


.

Originally posted by soficrow
IMO - the problem is NOT with illegal immigrants - it's with businesses that rely on immigrant labor - and governments and policies that help them set it up, and keep it going.
If ya wanna fight, at least go after the real enemy!!!

Dead on target! Let me propose a new minuteman project. It will really only take a minute!

1. Take a minute to write your state and federal congressmen/senators, your governor, etc and tell them that you won't vote for anyone who doesn't oppose government handouts to illegals while citizens are going without adequate medical care, even to the point that children are being aborted for financial reasons by parents who would otherwise have raised them!

2. Take another minute to write to the local office of whatever political party you support, and tell your friends to do the same. Make it clear that the constituents don't want to run incumbents who haven't taken a stand on this issue!

3. Take a minute to call the labor board if you know a business is exploiting illegal immigrant labor.

4. If you're highly motivated, take a weekend and organize a small demonstration against a business or politician who has been contributing to the problem, and remember to call and tell your local news channel before you do.

None of this takes very much time. None of it requires a gun. None of it is illegal. More people will be willing to help you with this project. And you won't be marginalized as a representative of the lunatic fringe.

Legal Immigration good.

Illegal Immigtation, however, is bad because it's ILLEGAL, not because some people claim it's Racist!



Minutemen: "The people here are really middle America, not one side or the other of the political and social spectrum," says Barbara McCutchen, a former school teacher and advertising saleswoman from Arkansas.



She and others say their concerns are practical rather than race-based - principally, worry about terrorists entering the US and the high cost of providing social services to illegals. They also see illegal immigration adding to crime and prison expenditures.



Some quote studies showing 500,000 illegals residing in Arizona alone - costing $1.3 billion in education, healthcare, and criminal justice. "That's nine percent of the state population," says Randy Graf, a former state representative who has been helping organizers. "The costs add up and up."



Volunteers say the impact shows up not only on government balance sheets, but in backyards. Kerry Morales, who came from Laredo, Texas, says she gets 200 illegals a day across her 80-acre ranch. Bands of illegals have broken into her house, attacked her numerous times, and damaged her property by leaving gates open, letting horses escape. Two dozen child abductions have been reported in Laredo in recent years, she says, with cross-border Mexicans demanding ransoms of $10,000 to $20,000.



"I want to bring attention that for people like me, there is physical danger," says Ms. Morales, who is married to a Hispanic. "The fact that our opponents are calling us racist and extremist is completely untrue."



Some complain about a diminished quality of life from illegals moving into communities from Oregon to California, Florida to the Carolinas. They decry the unfairness of giving illegals privileges that other immigrants have waited years to get.



"My son married a South Korean and they followed all the rules and it took two years," says Richard, a retired construction worker from Ventura, Calif., who declined to give a last name. "Why should we give privileges to people who just come across and blatantly disregard our system.?"



www.csmonitor.com...



www.azcentral.com...


[edit on 8-4-2005 by purrlions]

[edit on 8-4-2005 by purrlions]

I dont live on a border state...but if I did i would probably join them, with my 4-wheeler and shotgun.

I think it is a very good idea that there are people who will help watch our Southern border. While most of our troops being deployed overseas are ingauged in the war on terror, we must guard here at home also. It is great to see people willing to give of their time to protect our U.S. from those who enter illeagle and or may want to cause us harm.
I hope and pray that everyone involved in this program uses their heads and does not go and overstep their authority because if this were so, it would undermine the whole idea of what they are trying to accomplish.
The D.H.S. has been saying that they do not have enoungh manpower to gaurd the Sourthern border. To fix this problem, the should form an all volunteer force to aid the current presence of border police first after being trained in the proper ways to safely detain large groups of people.
This is a problem that is only going to grow unless we take a proactive stance and turn them back.
Maybe I have it wrong. I feel that the Mexican govt. should help share the cost of having their own citizans shipped back to them instead of the U.S. having to eat the whole cost. They are sucking our Social Services agencies dry and make it very difficult for the ones that have paid into it to reap any benefits. I get the feeling that the Mexican govt. is responsible for this mass exodious because they can no longer fund the social programs that we provide.

With news like this running around,

news.yahoo.com.../ap/20050409/ap_on_re_us/border_volunteers_10

I want to join up to, too bad I'm too far away in NY. It's just something about people getting together and doing something instead of whining and protesting. It's almost inspirational to me...

The minuteman project is legal and should be supported, by the way any act of aggresion from either the mexican army or drug runners would not be in their best interest. I admit maybe we have caused the problem with the drug runners since america is probably the largest coc aine using, marijuana smoking country. But we still need to prevent encroachment on our territory. People who call the minuteman "vigilantes" need to take a look at that definition. We are not detaining our executing people without due process. in fact the minute man project only speeds up due process and allows us to detain and deport people who have no right to be here.

Originally posted by Britguy
Who's gonna do all the gardening, valet park the cars and mix the cocktails at the country club if you don't let them in?

On my last visit to company headquarters in Santa Clara CA back in 2003, every morning when I arrived at the campus about 7AM there were scores of mexicans prettying the place up. Making sure there was not a moecule of dirt out of place. I swear there were more of them than actual staff sometimes.

Nevertheless, they do tend to do a lot of the low paid menial jobs that the white folk are not prepared to do for crap pay.

Trustnone
People who call the minuteman "vigilantes" need to take a look at that definition.

I agree with what you said.....But did you know that Pres. Bush called them that. I dont see then as vigilantes at all, I see them as the people (america) talking and the its obvious the governments not listening. We need to have extremely tight security, most roads and good and air travel is very good, but its just such a big border, and the government isn't putting there weight behind fixing the problem.

and for the record, I would deffiniatly support putting mines along the entire border, some showing and some hidden, and have it be a couple miles long, so the chance of them not hitting one mine is like 1/10,000 peopole make it to the US.

I read on this thread where somebody thougt that manning the border with guns would be "fun". Like to see you there dude. The Minutemen are going to spawn other self defence groups and the border will be a warzone in a years time. Most groups like the Minutemen will be overrun since they underestimate whose crossing the border. MS-13 pours across everyday along with whatever cartel agents you can name. This is a disgrace and the end result of the disastrous immigration policies. Its not all Bushs fault but it seems to have gotten much worse under him. Who cares if many are murderers and rapists...as long as they vote for you let em in!

Originally posted by Britguy
Who's gonna do all the gardening, valet park the cars and mix the cocktails at the country club if you don't let them in?

On my last visit to company headquarters in Santa Clara CA back in 2003, every morning when I arrived at the campus about 7AM there were scores of mexicans prettying the place up. Making sure there was not a moecule of dirt out of place. I swear there were more of them than actual staff sometimes.

Nevertheless, they do tend to do a lot of the low paid menial jobs that the white folk are not prepared to do for crap pay.

Hempstead, UK, huh?

there are plenty of people willing to do the jobs described without resorting to hiring illegal aliens. if people would just quit hiring them, they'd quit coming. i applaud the citizens of Arizona for their efforts, i also applaud the citizens of my state, Texas, for theirs, but much, much more needs to be done. there are areas with no boundaries, no deterents of any sort. i plan to help later if this action persists.

Originally posted by Nygdan
THo I suppose crossing a fence might in itself be illegal, regardless of citizenship.

yup, called "trespassing". Texas has some pretty good laws about this sorta thing.

Originally posted by Chakotay
The lands being 'protected' by these Americans are not American. They are the sovereign property of American Indian Nations (including Mexico)... We want our land back.

Your soverign territory? Nonsense. If so, then prove it. As for "our" land... no one alive in Mexico today has any claim to any land in the U.S. It doesn't matter what your ancestors did.

(Otherwise, the U.S. and U.K. could claim each other, the U.K. and France could claim each other, and Italy, as the former heart of the Roman Empire, could try to claim every country in the Mediterranean as "theirs". And so on.)

Originally posted by Nerdling
Vigilantes...

They don't allow citizens arrests in the UK, do they?

Originally posted by Nygdan
Since border isn't an obvious line tho, how can they say that a person did cross it?... They're probably just going to beat up some hispanic people that they come across that day. These people are definitely vigilantes...

You make a lot of uninformed assumptions here. First, the border between the U.S. and Mexico is exactly defined; second, the Minutemen are citizen observers. They do not confront the illegals, they report them to the authorities. On a few occasions, the illegals have come up to them.


[edit on 4/17/2005 by ThunderCloud]