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The Minuteman project seeks volunteers

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posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 02:39 PM
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I just caught up with a lot of the posting that's gone back and forth about citizens arrest. When I first got out of highschool I was a rent-a-cop, so I'm familiar with the laws on that.

You can't make a citizens arrest for a felony unless you know a felony has been comitted, and you can't make one for a misdemeanor unless you have SEEN it being comitted. This means that illegals can just blow right by these people refusing to answer questions or prove citizenship and anything the minutemen do to impede them is illegal.

The stated claim that they are only out there to help the border patrol is foolish, and that constraint will last about 3 days. The border patrol isn't allowed to do its job. They will not hunt the illegals with any great effort if they don't get there in time to get eyes on them. Some distant relative of mine works with the border patrol and I'm constantly getting second-hand stories via my grandparents, including my grandfather who has a great deal of experience with illegals as a former manager of a citrus company. Illegal immigrants have virtually zero risk of being apprehended and deported once they have made it a few miles into the US without seeing "la migra".

The minuteman effort can be legal or fruitful, but not both.

As for the national guards, that is technically true but there are ways of working around this. Hell Teddy Roosevelt basically started the Spanish American war by himself while his boss was out of the office. All Arizona needs to do is deploy their guards on the border until they end up engaging the "coyotes" then they can trump up the claim that it was a tactically necessity to persue the enemy, and they can finish the job. They just couldn't stay down there for prolonged operations.




posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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Nygdan asks:

"I thought states can't send their national guard beyond the federal borders?"

We can't even send our national guard past the Utah, New Mexico, California, or Nevada borders; forget about crossing at Sonora or Baja California del Norte.

I do not know where people get some of these outlandish ideas.

By the way, we do have documented evidence of the Mexican Army crossing the border and shooting at Americans.

It was in 1910.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 03:08 PM
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Nygdan,
Sounds like they are encouraging their people to cross the border.
Yes they are encouraging people to cross the borders illegally. Is this the RIGHT thing to do? A goverment assisting / helping it's citizens to break the laws of of another country?
quote: Minutemen are observing the crossing into the US, thus They are observing US laws being broken

I just have to question how 'obvious' the law breaking is.
You know where your property line is right? So you know when someone is tresspassing right? Or is that not obvious? Ranchers in Arizona have fences that run along the border. These fences are constanly being destoyed by poeple crossing the border northward.

quote: If these people wish to come to the US, then they need to go through the proper channels, pay their taxes, pay for thier insurances.
Of course, only a would contend that illegals have a right to be illegals. If noting else its unfair to people who go thru the actual naturalization and visa process.
Now you have lost me. Illegals have the right to be illegal? I am sorry, how is that? To me, Ilegals are criminals. Can you agree to this? They are breaking US laws by crossing the border correct? So by that, to allow an illegal the right to be illegal is the exact same thing as allowing a criminal to be a criminal.

I am sorry, that last part lost me completely.

We as a people are lossing billions of dollars a year due to identity theft, by illegals using stolen Social Security numbers so that they can get jobs so that they can meet the requirements designated by Bush last year. See the link above.
Think about it this way.
1) You have the Mexican goverment assisting / teaching people how to break US laws
2) You have Mexican Military and police laying ground fire to assist these illegal crossings.
3) You have the Mexican goverment is threatening to use international courts if necessary to block a new Arizona law meant to limit voting rights and limit public benefits to legal residents of the U.S.
4) You have California Police being disiplined for arresting illegals even though, they were stopped for a traffic violation and had no DL's or anything else. Yes, these people they stopped, were illegal but LULAC raised heck claiming that they were profiling. So basically, it is difficult for the highway patrol to perform thier job to protect citizens.
Yes the US is the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave and yes we welcome everyone who wishes to follow our laws to come here and improve their life., But should we pay with our tax dollars to pay for thier children to go to our schools, higher medical costs at our emergency rooms who have to write off charges for the treatment of illegals that come into the ER? The theft of our Identity? The use of our credit ratings by these people who use the stolen SS# to buy houses , cars etc. and then forget to pay?
Our goverment has proven over and over again it's unwillingness or inability to take steps to rectify this situation. Should we still sit here not take steps to protect ourselves against people who blatantly disregard our laws, our property, our identity? Or should we not move to assist our goverment in protecting it's borders, In upholding our laws?
I will give you an example of a recent event.
On October 20th, my wife and her sister (both naturalized citizens) were rearended by 4 hispanics. They had no licenses, they were all illegals, they did not have insurance.
It cost, me $500 (my deductible) and my insurance company $4500 to repair my wife's car.
My wife's and her sister's medical bills were over $6000 each only $2500 was covered by insurance the rest is out of my pocket.
Add to this, both my wife and her sister were out of work for 9 weeks.
All told, this little incident, cost me and my family over $15000 so far. The driver of the vehicle that hit my wife was given a ticket for not having a DL.
The addreess / phone number etc that they gave to the police were all bogus. According to the local police department. these people have probably moved to another city / state or even have gone back across the border.
To add insult to injury, my insurance company is now raising my rate due to the accident.
This is just one story out nof literally thousands. To say that we should not prevent these peopel from breaking our laws upon entering this country and then continuing to break out laws while they reside here, is to me and many people who live near the border extremely rediculous.
This is costing our people way too much and our goverment is NOT listening to it's people. Something needs to be done!



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street


And here is what the article “Making a citizens arrest” ( www.allsands.com... ) says:

” When you see a felony in progress, which is serious crime that usually involves violence, or a suspect fleeing from this type of crime you are entitled to make a citizens arrest.”

See the problem here? Since you don’t know if the guy crossing the border is a repeat offender, you have to assume that ht is committing a misdemeanor – and you can only make a citizen’s arrest for a felony.


It depends on where you live I know in my state and many others you can make a Citizen arrest for a misdemeanor I have seen cases were Shoplifters have been put under citizens arrest. That is perhaps the most common use of citizens arrest the article even makes mention of it.

But you can only do it if you see the person commit the crime.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond


You can't make a citizens arrest for a felony unless you know a felony has been comitted, and you can't make one for a misdemeanor unless you have SEEN it being comitted. This means that illegals can just blow right by these people refusing to answer questions or prove citizenship and anything the minutemen do to impede them is illegal.



Well on privaty property then can be put under citzens arrest for tresspassing with no need to prove if they are citizens of the US or not. The border patrol can find that out when they get there.

Isnt there even laws where you have to cross at a border crossing/port entry? I doubt the desert is a border crossing so they would be committing a crime just by doing that.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 03:51 PM
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So, what's the policy of the private use of land mines?



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
I don't subscribe to the theory that Americans can take "their security" upon themselves in vigilante fashion when it's not really a matter of their immediate personal security.


Maybe you would feel different if you had lets say 100 people daily tramp through your backyard destroying your fence, taking your lawn furniture and then crapping on the side of your house. To make matters worse you call the cops everyday for 5 years and they never show up to do anything. Do you then say okay I will set up a tent for them to sleep in and feed them and provide medical care for them. You will only encourage them which brings more of them and makes the problem worse. If the governmnet would listen to and obey its citizens (since this country is we the people) then normal citizens would not have to jump in and make the changes that they want to happen.

It is outrages that the government is saying they are serious about the war on terror but yet they not only allow the back door to remain open they encourage illegal entree through inaction.

It is a sad day when Americans say that we do not want other Americans to be able to protect thier property. We do not want them to feel safe in their communities. It is BS. If you want to let someone trample all over your property that is fine but do not tell others that they cannot protect what is theirs.

Don't Tread On Me!!!!!



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 04:01 PM
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That's easy gazrok. Private use of landmines leads to my highschool math teacher (an army reservist) insisting that whoever laid the mines should have to walk point through the minefield. At least that was the popular idea when so freak set a few mines around an elementary school a few years back.

As for where I got the idea of a little trans-border vigilantism; yes 1910 comes to mind. I believe that if a bunch of yahoos gets together and shoots up Mexican citizens while playing minuteman-cowboy they run the risk of Mexican vigilantes crossing the border to deal with them. If armed illegals come across the border looking for trouble you tell me how Arizona will react. I'm not saying their going to flat-out invade Mexico, I'm just saying that if the absolute worst case highly unlikely scenario for this little wild-west reenactment were to play out, there could be skirmishes on the border involving the AZ national guard.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 04:33 PM
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If Uncle Sam won't do its job, it comes down to the private citizen to protect whats his......alot of these illegal crossings take place on private property and God help the property owner if he should shoot any tresspassors that threaten him....the FBI would kick down his door within the hour and arrest him for violating the immigrants "civil rights"

Yep, these Mexican migrants have MORE rights than we do....more medical care.....more free legal help....more access to a free college education. Its true, our streets are paved with gold....

God Bless these MinuteMan and If I can't patrol with them...Ill send some money to help them.

Maximu§



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 05:11 PM
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Hey does anyone know how i could help that cause without actually going down there? thanks



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by horten229
Hey does anyone know how i could help that cause without actually going down there? thanks

Go to the following link minutemanproject.com...



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 06:07 PM
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Washington, DC – A bipartisan group of U.S. Senators led by Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) has introduced legislation to authorize federal funding to reimburse states and localities for the costs associated with incarcerating undocumented criminal aliens.

Co-sponsors of the bill, introduced late Wednesday, include Senators Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), Charles Schumer (D-NY), Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Texas), Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.), Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.), Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), Maria Cantwell (D-WA), Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico), John McCain (R-Ariz.), John Conyn (R-Texas), and Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ).

“Control of illegal immigration is a Federal responsibility. When our Federal agencies fall short in this responsibility, State and local taxpayers should not have to foot the bill,” Senator Feinstein said. “This legislation is intended to remind the Federal government to fulfill its duties and to help State and local governments deal with the burden that illegal criminal aliens have placed on their justice systems.”

Enacted as part of the Crime Act of 1994, the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP) provided states between $500 million and $585 million in reimbursement funding annually from 1996 to 2002.

Since 2003, however, the Bush Administration has proposed no funding for SCAAP and Congress has only provided a fraction of the amount requested by states. In the past three years, Congress has approved the following amounts for SCAAP:

$250 million for 2003,
$296.8 million for 2004, and
$305 million for 2005.
It is estimated that states incur approximately $13 billion in criminal justice costs each year for housing illegal criminal aliens.

The SCAAP authorization expired in October 2004. Under the bipartisan legislation, the program would be restored and funding would be authorized at the following levels:

$750 million in Fiscal Year 2006
$850 million in Fiscal Year 2007
$950 million in Fiscal Years 2008 through 2011.

Link



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by valkeryie
'...I invite you to join me in Tombstone, Arizona from APRIL 1 - 30, 2005 to protect our country from a 40-year-long invasion across our southern border with Mexico...'

This may help or it may become some sort of vigilanty mob. Any thoughts?

[edit on 28-1-2005 by Banshee]


I love infiltrations. I mean it, I really do. Imagine being a Supremacist, rolling along in your new SUV, with your new found friend, Chakotay. Your new friend is an American patriot, just like you. He looks just like you. You spot an 'illegal alien' ahead in the sand. You raise your rifle, and- Chakotay arrests you. Thanks for the invitation, homeboy. You betcha I'll be there. Hope you like handcuffs.

Note: anyone else notice this pigslop was dated 'April 1st'


[edit on 28-1-2005 by Chakotay]



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by Chakotay

Originally posted by valkeryie
'...I invite you to join me in Tombstone, Arizona from APRIL 1 - 30, 2005 to protect our country from a 40-year-long invasion across our southern border with Mexico...'

This may help or it may become some sort of vigilanty mob. Any thoughts?

[edit on 28-1-2005 by Banshee]


I love infiltrations. I mean it, I really do. Imagine being a Supremacist, rolling along in your new SUV, with your new found friend, Chakotay. Your new friend is an American patriot, just like you. He looks just like you. You spot an 'illegal alien' ahead in the sand. You raise your rifle, and- Chakotay arrests you. Thanks for the invitation, homeboy. You betcha I'll be there. Hope you like handcuffs.

Note: anyone else notice this pigslop was dated 'April 1st'


[edit on 28-1-2005 by Chakotay]


Chakotay, where is the Supremecy? The whole idea is to prevent those people who do not wish to follow the laws of the US. The people who decide that they want to this country to work, enjoy it's benefits but who wish not to follow it's laws, who wish not to pay taxes, etc. There is a need to protect our borders. It does not matter what race, creed, nationality etc they are, if these people decide it is better to enter this country illegally then they are criminals. Where is the racism in that? They need to be treated as such. gain, if these people wish to follow the law, enter this couontry using accept legal means, pay their taxes etc. then they will be welcomed with open arms. The belief that we should allow this continued behaviour is ludicrous. By that type of thinking, I have as much right to what is in your house. Your car etc. Think about it, is this not the same thing that these people who are flooding across the borders from Mexico doing?
U will support anyone who comes here legally. I will oppose anyone who decides they should do so illegally.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 07:14 PM
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Kenshiro. A proud Japanese name. To the point:

The lands being 'protected' by these Americans are not American. They are the sovereign property of American Indian Nations (including Mexico). We never ceded these lands willingly. They were taken from us by fraud and genocidal force, and sooner or later we or our descendants are going to press a claim for the return of these lands. We do not want compensation. We want our land back. We form democratic majorities in many of the disputed communities, yet we are prevented from enjoying taxation with representation as we are not allowed to vote if we are Mexican. We do all the work, enjoy none of the rights. As George Bush says, 'justice must be done'. Let me clarify one thing: Native Americans are not racist about this. We do not want you, Japanese-American or Irish-American or African-American or any kind of dash-American to feel threatened, unwelcome, or unloved. We love you all. We want you to stay here with us. We want you to enjoy equal rights to this land with us- but let us live together in peace and equality without hateful borders between us. Our societies are less fortunate than yours in many ways, but we enjoy true equality before the law and respect for the rights of all humans to live together in peace without exploiting one another. If you give us a chance, we will build with our hands what you dream in your hearts.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 07:54 PM
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Looks like supremacist agitation to me too.

So yo, all you neo-minutement, here's an idea:

...You know perfectly well American business wants Mexicans here for cheap labor. And if you really wanted to fix the real problem, you'd go after the businesses and the laws that help them.

So do it. Take on the administration, and leave the poor brown people alone.


.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by LA_Maximus
If Uncle Sam won't do its job, it comes down to the private citizen to protect whats his......alot of these illegal crossings take place on private property and God help the property owner if he should shoot any tresspassors that threaten him....the FBI would kick down his door within the hour and arrest him for violating the immigrants "civil rights"


[ sarcasm ]
You mean to say that if you kill another human being the FBI can just come arrest you for no good reason!? This must be some kind of racist anti-white conspiracy! Me and Billy-Bob are gonna go burn down these people's churches- that'll show em! [ /sarcasm ]
When this sort of extremism finds its way into a legitimate issue folks get hurt. I for one am not real keen on starting a race war, so despite my opposition to illegal immigration I am going to continue my families long and proud tradition of not killing people who cause us inconvenience.

As I have already made clear, the people do not have a right to shore up what they see as inadequate government policy. The government is the people's instrument of policy and therefore change to the government is required. I strongly suggest that pickup trucks full of shotgun-toting "minute men" not be used in the attempt to change the government's ways on this issue.
I remember once when a bunch of people went beyond the law to do things better than the government on their own. They all got together to live in their own way in Waco, TX, but then Janet Reno had the ATF set them all on fire.




Yep, these Mexican migrants have MORE rights than we do....more medical care.....more free legal help....more access to a free college education. Its true, our streets are paved with gold....

There are legitimate grievances with the government's handling of illegal immigration. Bottom line is that our laws encourage it. I believe we should press for sensible and somewhat more heavy handed policies, although I do not believe that we should be mining the border or shooting to kill.

You still have no right to go down to the border and shoot it out with these people. Can I bring a gun to where ever you are with the intent to cause trouble, then shoot you in self defense if I see you with a gun too?

You also have civil or criminal liability for any damage or death resulting from participating with the minutemen, because it is negligent to go out with the expressed intent to enforce while having neither the training nor recognized authority to do so. This is not what citizens arrest laws are for.

Finally, you have to realize that there are virtually no circumstances under which the minutemen can do anything about illegal immigration legally.
To make the arrest for illegal crossing they have to actually see it done, which is going to cut down on their effectiveness almost 100%.
To make an arrest for trespassing they must 1. Legally own the property, or 2. Be employees or agents of the property owner. In some places and situations the fact that they are not licensed security guards could come into play as well.
They will find themselves quickly frustrated in their stated goal of merely communicating with the border patrol because of the problems which plague the border patrol already- they are stretched too thin and aren't always allowed to even enforce the law! The border patrol says "thanks for the tip, we'll be there in 20 minutes". What now?



God Bless these MinuteMan and If I can't patrol with them...Ill send some money to help them.
Maximu§

[ sarcasm ]
You wouldn't want to waste money on nothing if this ended up being an April Fools Joke. Why don't you just offer them a commission for each human parasite they kill. In fact I'm gonna go down there myself, and if you really want to help you'll tell me where I can buy an SS uniform. [ /sarcasm ]



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 08:23 PM
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Chakotav, men have fought for land since man could fight. The Indians fought each other for hunting areas and for land to live on. When they won by force they did not give the land back. The land stayed with the victors. It is as it always was. Indians were a warrior society; here is a little bit of info about one of the greatest warriors to ever live, TATANKA YOTANKA:

At the age of fifteen, Tatanka Yotanka displayed great courage in a fight with the Flatheads in 1847. He galloped past their skirmish line, laughing and taunting them. In spite of the shower of arrows and the hail of Flathead bullets directed against him, Tatanka Yotanka sustained only a minor foot wound. This display convinced all that not only was this young man courageous, his medicine was powerful as well. This caused the warrior societies to consider him as a brother. The warrior societies of the Lakota have often been called "the finest light cavalry in the world." It was as a member of the Strong Heart and Kit Fox societies that Tatanka Yotanka made war against the enemies of his Lakota people. Later he would be a well-respected member of the Silent Eaters society as well. Later in life, Grandfather Tatanka Yotanka became the last known head of the "Cante Tinza" society.

Indians used to say that the tribe is as great as its enemies. Man has always fought over resources and always will. Right now men are fighting over resources again called jobs. Trying to get the Government involved has to this point been fruitless. It is time for something to be done to force action in Washington.

Maybe I will see you in Arizona Chakotay.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 08:39 PM
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Dissapointed. When seeing the words "minuteman" and "project" I automatically made the connection with a deadly WMD that was also called minuteman.

But all I see here is a bunch of rednecks wanting to test out their guns on illegal immigrants. The way its portrayed here makes it look like a sport.

The border patrol at the southern border is adequate enough especially with the Bush Admin in power. US customs is so tense that I had to wait 4-5 hours at the US-Canada border to get into the US. Thats one of the primary reasons the Euro's Airbus will gain in popularity (there will be no need to stop in the US for refueling-stop overs, etc).

The Lincoln Memorial in Washing was closed too. That shows were the southern patrol has been shifted to.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by websurfer
Dissapointed. When seeing the words "minuteman" and "project" I
But all I see here is a bunch of rednecks wanting to test out their guns on illegal immigrants. The way its portrayed here makes it look like a sport.


If you had taken the time to read the website you would have noticed that it promoted non-violence. You report to the border patrol the presence of illegals and the border patrol does the rest. It promotes giving water and or medical treatment to the illegals if need be. You are not to try to detain illegals or start any type of conflict. The minutemen are there to assist the border patrol.



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