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The Minuteman project seeks volunteers

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posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 11:59 AM
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Just came across this, volunteers patroling the Arizona border with Mexico. Apparently they are getting more popular, seen them on CNN a couple of days ago.

www.libertypost.org...

* * * * * * To Citizens of the Republic of the United States of America:

Are YOU interested in spending up to 30 days along the Arizona border as part of a blocking force against entry into the U.S. by illegal aliens early next spring?

I invite you to join me in Tombstone, Arizona from APRIL 1 - 30, 2005 to protect our country from a 40-year-long invasion across our southern border with Mexico.

**mod edit: all caps in title

This may help or it may become some sort of vigilanty mob. Any thoughts?

[edit on 28-1-2005 by Banshee]




posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 12:02 PM
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Well how can you blame them. The government is not doing what we pay them to do, so some folks with too much time on their hands are.

I predict some overzealous government official when put more of our resources checking out the citizens there then looking for illegals.

[edit on 28-1-2005 by outsider]



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 12:03 PM
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Vigilantes.

If they "arrest" or shoot anyone then they will be arrested.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Nerdling
Vigilantes.

If they "arrest" or shoot anyone then they will be arrested.


Nope, there is a such thing as a ''citizens arrests'' you can legally detain someone you see commit a crime until the authorities arrive. Crossing the border illegally is a crime.

You cant shoot someone unless its in self defense to save your life then you can legally do that too.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 12:15 PM
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Nerdling, remeber there is a thing called citizen's arrest which allows for civilians to legally detain someone until authorities arrive.
Also, if while the Minutemen are attempting to place someone under a citizen's arrest, and the illegal fight's back or even fires upon the Minutemen, then the Minutemen have the right to defend themselves.
There have been a number of occasions when not only the "Coyotes" fire upon our border patrols but there have been a number of occastions when the Mexican military and police forces have laid down ground fire to "assist" the border crossing.
If our goverment continues to refuse to secure our borders as has been demanded by the people that the goverment is supposed to represent, then by constitutional law the American people have the right to start to take steps to protect themselves.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 12:21 PM
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If our government is not doing its job then it is up to the citizens to get it done. I am considering volunteering for this worthwhile cause.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 12:36 PM
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The border patrol hasn't done their job it's about time we take over. Load up the trucks gather the guns now is where we have our fun. It's our duty to protect our country and keep the scum on the run. You might run you might hid but in the end your gunna die! aggravated assualt Border Patrol. Now the skin heads can finally live one of their favorite songs! Cool!

Edited to take out some offensive stuff that might hurt someones feelings.

[edit on 28-1-2005 by DiRtYDeViL]



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 01:10 PM
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Who's gonna do all the gardening, valet park the cars and mix the cocktails at the country club if you don't let them in?


On my last visit to company headquarters in Santa Clara CA back in 2003, every morning when I arrived at the campus about 7AM there were scores of mexicans prettying the place up. Making sure there was not a moecule of dirt out of place. I swear there were more of them than actual staff sometimes.

Nevertheless, they do tend to do a lot of the low paid menial jobs that the white folk are not prepared to do for crap pay.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 01:13 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Nope, there is a such thing as a ''citizens arrests'' you can legally detain someone you see commit a crime until the authorities arrive. Crossing the border illegally is a crime.

Since border isn't an obvious line tho, how can they say that a person did cross it? Also, a citizens is under no requirement to present citizenship papers or ID to other citizens, so how will they prove the person is an illegal immigrant?

They're probably just going to beat up some hispanic people that they come across that day. These people are definitely vigilantes.


then by constitutional law the American people have the right to start to take steps to protect themselves.

This of course is incorrect. Vigilanteism is illegal. While citizens might be empowered to hold other citizens until authorities come in, these yocals have no legal right to grab a hold of any hispanic person they see and hold them against their will.


Load up the trucks gather the guns now is where we have our fun.

I suspect that if the illegal smugglers are as well armed as reported to be then this will result in lots of dead vigilantes in trucks.

edit to remove a line that was someone elses

[edit on 28-1-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 01:18 PM
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Nygdan , read this website www.minutemanproject.com.

It states you are not to detain the illegals you are to contact the border patrol and let them handle it.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 01:28 PM
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Good, any attempt at actual detention would be pointless and dangerous. Hopefully these watchers won't end up skirmishing with the gangs and organizations that smuggle people across.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Nope, there is a such thing as a ''citizens arrests'' you can legally detain someone you see commit a crime until the authorities arrive. Crossing the border illegally is a crime.

Since border isn't an obvious line tho, how can they say that a person did cross it? Also, a citizens is under no requirement to present citizenship papers or ID to other citizens, so how will they prove the person is an illegal immigrant?



Trust me if you live in the area you know where the border is. These people will not be partoling Legal border crossings. Do you think they are going to detain legal mexican immigrants just crossing the border in the middle of the desert at night


The whole point of this is too aid the U.S. Border Patrol in "spotting" intruders entering the U.S. illegally anyway. Their primary goal is not to arrest people but if they see someone commiting a crime its within their power as citizens of the US to detain them.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 01:42 PM
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What scares me is that, being one of those Humane Borders weenies, I run a chance of getting shot myself. This is ironic, because, even though I support Humane Borders (obviously) I also think we need to secure our borders.

I just hope I don't run into anyone -- coyotes, ilegales, or volunteer patrollers -- out there. I plan on picking up trash, leaving water, and heading for home.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 01:54 PM
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Nygdan
Unfortunately, you are under a couple of misunderstandings here.
1) citizens arrest of course does not require someone to present papers of any kind. that was never my point. It is the ability of a US citizen to dteain someone who they have witness breaking the law. Reference Making a citizens arrest

If you live in the area, then of course you know where the border is. Even if you are not native to the area, a quick search will give this information to you. US, Mexican Border

As for the Mexican goverment, They are even publishing comic books that detail how best to cross the border into the US and how to keep a low profile while here in the US. Mexico publishes guide to assist border crossers
Does this not sound just a little bit fishy to you?
Your statement of This of course is incorrect. Vigilanteism is illegal. While citizens might be empowered to hold other citizens until authorities come in, these yocals have no legal right to grab a hold of any hispanic person they see and hold them against their will.
Again misses the point. The Minutemen are observing the crossing into the US, thus They are observing US laws being broken and then they as anyone else in this country have the right to detain a person until authorities arrive. Refernce the link I placed above. There is no mention of "grabbing ahold of a hispanic person" A person crossing the border Mexican, Ethiopian, Arab etc.
US Border Patrol "About one in every 10 that we catch, is from a country like Yemen or Egypt."are breaking the law. The Minutemen are there to assist the border patrols in doing thier job!

I have a question for you. When it is all said and done, are you telling me and everyone else that you should do absolutely nothing if someone comes into your house and steals from you? Destroys your property? That you should only stand there and watch them do this wringing your hands? That is exactly what these people who have decided to forgo the option of crossing the border legally. If these people wish to come to the US, then they need to go through the proper channels, pay their taxes, pay for thier insurances. We are losing over $420 Billion Reference the following thread The secret list of ID theft victims
I have absolutely nothing against those who wish to come into our country legally, who want to make a better life for themselves and their families, who will pay their taxes etc. Open the borders to these people! BUT keep those who are not willing to follow basic laws!



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 01:57 PM
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I don't subscribe to the theory that Americans can take "their security" upon themselves in vigilante fashion when it's not really a matter of their immediate personal security. Issues such as immigration are policy matters for the elected government. If the people are feeling so endangered that they must take up arms the legitimate way to do it is actually to bear those arms against the government which is disregarding their safety. I'm not saying the minutemen should attack the government; I'm saying they shouldn't be attacking anybody if they don't feel strongly enough about this to attack the heart of the problem.
These minutemen are calling down some serious trouble upon themselves. They will be accused of overstepping their rights to citizens arrest, they will probably kill somebody- hopefully not an unarmed person. And pray- tell what's it's going to look like if they really butcher a group of illegals? Can you say international incident?
Check it out... American yahoos shoot up Mexican families crossing the border. Mexican yahoos retaliate on American visitors, or maybe even cross the border and do it on our soil. American yahoos cross to respond in kind and end up dusting it up with federales or the military. Now the US has got about 30 seconds to lock down that border and get control over its citizens before Mexico militarizes the border and stops looking at us as friends. Zero chance of a war at this point, but do you want Mexico throwing in their lot with Venezuela, Cuba, and by implication Russia and China?


Originally posted by kenshiro2012
There have been a number of occasions when not only the "Coyotes" fire upon our border patrols but there have been a number of occastions when the Mexican military and police forces have laid down ground fire to "assist" the border crossing.


I'd never heard the part about the Mexican military firing on US soil. If this is true it does change things. Arizona would be within it's rights to activate it's national guard and make a punitive raid on Mexico to ward off further aggression, so long as the action fell under the definition of defensive or preventative response to emergency rather than a policy decision. It's a VERY precarious position to defend politically, but morally I think it holds.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 02:00 PM
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I'd never heard the part about the Mexican military firing on US soil. If this is true it does change things. Arizona would be within it's rights to activate it's national guard and make a punitive raid on Mexico to ward off further aggression, so long as the action fell under the definition of defensive or preventative response to emergency rather than a policy decision. It's a VERY precarious position to defend politically, but morally I think it holds.

Here is a link on that Mexicans shoot at Border Patrol



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 02:08 PM
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Here’s one of the reasons why you probably can’t make a citizen’s arrest for illegal immigration, even if you see the person doing it.

This is from the Federation for American Immigration Reform ( www.fairus.org... ):

” Each year the Border Patrol is making more than a million apprehensions of people who flagrantly violate our nation's laws by unlawfully crossing U.S. borders to work and to receive publicly-funded services, often with the aid of fraudulent documents. Such entry is a misdemeanor and, if repeated, becomes punishable as a felony.”

And here is what the article “Making a citizens arrest” ( www.allsands.com... ) says:

” When you see a felony in progress, which is serious crime that usually involves violence, or a suspect fleeing from this type of crime you are entitled to make a citizens arrest.”

See the problem here? Since you don’t know if the guy crossing the border is a repeat offender, you have to assume that ht is committing a misdemeanor – and you can only make a citizen’s arrest for a felony.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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Drug runners sometimes make use of the Mexican military they cross in convoys of humvees armed with automatic weapons. Often they do this on Native American reserve land because the Natives are suppose to police them selves and are not as well equiped.

I dont think the Mexican Goverment is ordering this (at least I hope they aint) But the drug cartels have alot of money and they seem to be buying off parts of the military to protect their product.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by kenshiro2012
citizens arrest of course does not require someone to present papers of any kind. that was never my point. It is the ability of a US citizen to dteain someone who they have witness breaking the law.

I know it has nothing to do with papers. How does one demonstrate that so and so is an illegal alien? Because they look mexican and are near the border?

If you live in the area, then of course you know where the border is. Even if you are not native to the area, a quick search will give this information to you. US, Mexican Border

I suspect its not so obvious 'on the ground' tho. Short of seeing a person climb over a fence or out of a river, I don't see how its doable. Even then, are citizens not allowed to come from mexico into the US without going thru a border checkpoint?


Does this not sound just a little bit fishy to you?

Sounds like they are encouraging their people to cross the border.

Minutemen are observing the crossing into the US, thus They are observing US laws being broken

I just have to question how 'obvious' the law breaking is.



There is no mention of "grabbing ahold of a hispanic person

Obviously it would require some sort of physical restraint, unless you are questioning the 'hispanicness' of the person. I agree, lots of different types of peoples cross the border.

nothing if someone comes into your house and steals from you?

No, I suggest that these guys might not have any sort of case in demonstrating that they had the authority to detain anyone there, in so far as showing that they witnessed an illegal activity. Also, keep in mind that 'self defense' rules aren't as obvious as one might think. One can't in every situation respond with deadly force, even tho it might seem intuitively like they can.

If these people wish to come to the US, then they need to go through the proper channels, pay their taxes, pay for thier insurances.

Of course, only a jackass would contend that illegals have a right to be illegals. If noting else its unfair to people who go thru the actual naturalization and visa process.



posted on Jan, 28 2005 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
when it's not really a matter of their immediate personal security

Indeed, this might go against any sort of 'self defense claim' for any violence that occurs. Not to mention that it might just simply be illegal to patrol any area in paramilitary groups, irrespective of 'citizen arrest'.


to activate it's national guard and make a punitive raid on Mexico

I thought states can't send their national guard beyond the federal borders?


Mexicans shoot at Border Patrol

Any non Worldnutdaily sources for this? Not saying it couldn't have happened, just that WND is too unreliable to verify it.




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