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Satan Wasnt Thrown Out Of Heaven

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posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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therein lays your problem


No, therein lies your problem. This is a thread about a Christian topic, if you don't recognize the Bible as truth then it's your problem.




posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 11:28 AM
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I recognize the bible as a great teaching tool. The first Text book if you will. It's lesons teach many good things.
It is dangerous to take the words as literal, for you slide down the slope to ignorance, exclusion, and intolerance. You are quite ready to accept a book writen by man as truth but incapable of questioning it in comparasin to the world you experiance. Maybe I just don't understand such blind faith. I have the need to understand the world as a whole. I have read the bible, it seems to conflict with itself, and with the reality of the world.
It just seems to me that any God that would test our faith and then punish us to an eternity in hell, is not the ambivilant being of love and acceptance that many will have me belive.
Does it make me an imoral person to belive what I belive. I do no Kill, rape or otherwise harm my fellow beings, but the christian god would condem me to eternal hell fire if I do not belive?



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 12:19 PM
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Perhaps you could point out some specific examples of how the Scriptures contradict themselves, and go on to explain your reasons for believing that they contradict?



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 01:07 PM
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It is dangerous to take the words as literal, for you slide down the slope to ignorance, exclusion, and intolerance.


Why do you people on here keep harping on that word " INTOLERANCE "? Why do we have to tolerate the wrongs that you do?

Where do you draw the line between right and wrong? What in this world is actually wrong and bad? Are there any things that there should be laws against? You seem to be against anything the Bible says is wrong. It says murder is wrong, and lying, and adultery, and envy, and glutteny, and a host of other things. If you find any of those things wrong then please let me know.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 01:44 PM
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Well we could start a whole new thread on bible contradictions, and you could express you opinions on how it doesn't.
That's not something I want to get into.
see; www.abovetopsecret.com...

You pose an interesting question deesw.
where do you draw the line?
I don't know. I draw my own line, which is this;
If it causes harm physical, emotional and financial to an other being it is wrong

for example;
Two consenting adults want to have homosexual realations that is NOT wrong.
Child molestation and pornography IS wrong.
Drug use is NOT wrong.
Stealing to obtain drugs IS wrong.
Greed, and envy are NOT wrong.
making others suffer to gain wealth, or acting upon your envy IS wrong.
Feeling Intolerant is NOT wrong.
But being intolerant, and trying to force a certain life style on others, and thus alienating them IS wrong,

In short we must stop blaming Satan for the problems in this world. We must take personal responsability as our new mantra.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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Two consenting adults want to have homosexual realations that is NOT wrong.


Drug use not wrong? Homosexuality not wrong? What do you do, just sit down at the beginning of your day and say hhhmmmm, what will I think is wrong today? Not much otay.
So drug use not wrong huh? Where do you draw the line there? What if your 10 year old son buys heroin from a man at his school? Or is it just ok for adults to use them?
Homosexuality not wrong huh? Again where do you draw the line there? How do you figure it's right? Men's parts do not match each others nor do women's. Homosexuality is a choice, plain and simple. Is it right to teach kids that it's ok to be gay? " I just hugged my friend on the playground,,, I must be gay,,,, I'm so confused ". That's not right. If two consenting adults CHOOSE to be gay then that is their business, but our children have no right being exposed to it.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 04:17 PM
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Uh, hallofnone, i dont have any clue as to where you are getting your ideas of right and wrong, if they are just your ideas, then fine, i got no problem, but if you got this info from the bible, you are sorely mistaken, no offense.

Personally, from what I know of the bible, and just life in general, the conclusion that I have come to is that selfishness, and all forms of it, are sinful, or at least cause sin.

And as far as:



so........... if god is all knowing and the creator of everything...

he musta known ole satan was gonna get rowdy before he was created..... so he created evil??

why would our tender loving god create evil for us helpess people


This is how I see it:
In the beginning God created light and darkness for Himself, forcing Himself to be made up of both. Then, for our sakes, He distinguished between the 2 because our small minds would not be able to comprehend the former. And thus when God did this, all creation doubled, that which had been made, and that which was to be made (heaven, earth, man etc.) So when He created us, and Satan and the angels (not necessarily in that order), it was inevitable for there to be both good and evil. In that way, perfecting creation would be a hard one to figure out. This is why, in the end, there will just be Heaven and Hell, Heaven being perfection, and Hell being all the crap thta has to go with it. In case you are wondering, I came to this conclusion with a certain text in the Dead Sea Scrolls, that was written about Genesis and an interpretation of it.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 04:31 PM
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Back on topic.
IMHO, as mentioned above, Satan still has "access" to heaven, as in Job, where he meets with God and the "sons of God". (Who these "sons of God" are is another mystery that's best left for another thread. Suffice to say they were on the Earth at some time and bred with the "dughters of men" who gave birth to giants and heroes of great reknown. Go figure.)

Satan can also walk around on the Earth.

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.


Satan will be banished from heaven only at the end times after he rallies a third of the angels in war against God and the good angels.

Revelation 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Then after all the events of the end times are over, Satan, the Beast (antichrist) and the false prophet, and everyone else who didn't repent and followed the beast will be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Personally, I don't think that this means eternal torture and burning, etc. I think it means utter and final destruction, with no chance of eternal life. The second death. Even death and hell, the concepts itself, will not exist anymore.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Nor will pain and suffering exist.

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


However, as usual the bible seems contradictory, perhaps in light of our limited understanding of the workings of God and the multiverse. Here it seems that Satan will be locked up for a thousand years before the FINAL ending. And that folks have a chance at resurrection and maybe a second chance. Perhaps the coming endtimes are the beginning of a new thousand year age, at the end of which, there will be the FINAL final battle.

Revelation 20
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison


Interesting.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 04:48 PM
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The contradiction is the result of trying fuse several plagiarized stories together into one book. They are just stories.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 08:45 PM
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It's quite simple.

What the Bible says is wrong, is wrong.

What it says isn't wrong, isn't wrong.

If it doesn't say mention something one way or another, pray about it.



posted on Jan, 30 2005 @ 09:28 PM
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JJ;
It is my humble opinion of right and wrong.
I know what the bible says. but thanks.


pao

posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by deesw
I love you and everyone else on here.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 12:22 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong, BUT didn't Satan create this world and was proud of his creation, and that is what god(general term for creator) hated about Satan, his pride?

On another note, and I might have mentioned this before, Satan came from the Egyptian god Set, who was described as being reddish in skin tone with red eyes. Probably from drinking and smoking too much.


Set was believed by the egyptian to represent evil. Whenever there were destructive storms or mass bloodshed, Set was blamed(Sounds familiar for those who believe in Satan.)



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by deesw
This is a thread about a Christian topic, if you don't recognize the Bible as truth then it's your problem.

One hardly needs to accept anything as true in order to discuss it.


sc3
how the Scriptures contradict themselves

here is an interesting list, i have not reviewed it in any detail, but am familiar moderately with the site and some of them

www.infidels.org...

I recall that there was also a debate on that site's forum between two people on the subject of biblical contradictions. The con side (there are no contradictions) was rather thuroughly trounced. Mainly, as I recall it, there was a bit of a problem over the sequence of events and who was invovled on the matter of mary and whoever comming to the tomb and finding it open and empty.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 09:47 AM
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Read Genisis, at the very begining god made a firmament to divide the waters below from the waters above. He called this firmament heaven.


If you look up the word "firmament" it says it is the sky as refered to as and arch.

For those with any insight this should be a revelation.

Heaven is not that far from our physical earth. The bible speaks of people being called up in the spirit and also speaks of God walking in the garden. Contradictions are easy when we are so use to dividing heaven from earth. This division is nothing more than a state of mind. I would have to believe that even those that disagree about God, would be more than happy to entertain the idea of astral travel or oobe. The bible is full of oobe experiences. Any time someone is called in the spirit, they are talking about being present in the spirt. The seperation of heaven and hell works in the same manner. Just as a prison is still part of the earth, hell is a part of heaven. Reference is made to the different levels of heaven and subsequently, hell is the lowest level of heaven. I think the main distinction that needs to be made really deals with the belief of life after death. If a person is opposed to the idea that there will be a life after death, then the whole conversation of contradictions is really out of place.

Even for those of different religions the commonality of life after death is present. What about the connection between Islam and Christianity? For those versed in the importance of the first coming of Jesus, remember that he came for those lost sheep of israel. He came to make a NEW covenant with those people. So what happened to those that followed Abrahams laws, but were excluded from the new covenant? I would have to believe that they are still under the old covenant. This is why being judgmental is a hard road to travel. Even those that are, and believe themselves to be Christian( including myself) don't really understand the nature of God. What is good for one may be bad for the other. The bible tells us to fix our own short comings before we try to fix the short comings of others. This kind of seperation can be seen multiple times in the bible where as one brother recieves a gift and the other does not.

[edit on 31-1-2005 by popeye0314]



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by popeye0314
For those versed in the importance of the first coming of Jesus, remember that he came for those lost sheep of israel. He came to make a NEW covenant with those people. So what happened to those that followed Abrahams laws, but were excluded from the new covenant? I would have to believe that they are still under the old covenant. This is why being judgmental is a hard road to travel.

Ahh, this is what I like to see. All we seem to hear about these days is the intolerance and bigotry promoted by certain Christian (and I use the term lightly) groups. Nice to see that those of us who believe in tolerance, acceptance and non-judgment, and don't believe that God used a tsunami to punish gay Swedes still can raise a voice above the din. Nice post popeye0314.


When it all comes down to it, we will always fall short by trying to define and categorize God, Satan and the other mysteries of creation, since they cannot be defined or confined by our perceptions and understanding of existence. For all we know God and Satan are one and the same, and duality is an illusion designed to teach us the blessing and the pitfall that is "free will".


*edit: BBcode correction

[edit on 2005/1/31 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 02:26 PM
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You are wrong, Justanother, and I'll correct you.

Satan, while certainly proud, never created anything. Except, possibly, evil.



posted on Jan, 31 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by southern_cross3
You are wrong, Justanother, and I'll correct you.

Satan, while certainly proud, never created anything. Except, possibly, evil.


You should read the bible again. Here, let me help:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And Satan said, "It doesn't get any better than this."

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. And God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit," and God saw that it was good.

And Satan said, "There goes the neighborhood."

And God said, "Let us make Man in our image, after our likeness, and let him have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the Earth." And so God created Man in His own image; male and female created He them. And God looked upon Man and Woman and saw that they were fit.

And Satan said, "I know how I can get back in this game."

And God populated the Earth with broccoli and cauliflower and spinach,

green and yellow vegetables of all kinds, so Man and Woman would live long and healthy lives.

And Satan created McDonald's. And McDonald's brought forth the 99 cent cheeseburger. And Satan said to Man, "You want fries with that?" And Man said, "Super-size them!" And Man gained 5 pounds.

And God created healthful yogurt, that Woman might keep her figure that Man found so fair.

And Satan brought forth chocolate. And Woman gained 5 pounds.

And God said, "Try my crispy, fresh salad."

And Satan brought forth Ben & Jerry's. And Woman gained another 10 pounds.

And God said, "I have sent thee heart-healthy vegetables and olive oil with which to cook them."

And Satan brought forth chicken-fried steak so big it needed its own platter. And Man gained an extra 10 pounds. And his low-density lipo-proteins went through the roof.

And God brought forth running shoes and Man resolved to lose those extra pounds.

And Satan brought forth cable TV with remote control so Man would not have to toil to change channels between ESPN and ESPN2. And Man gained another 10 pounds.

And God said, "You're running up the score, Devil." And God brought forth the potato, a vegetable naturally low in fat and brimming with nutrition.

And Satan peeled off the healthful skin and sliced the starchy center into chips and deep-fried them. And he created sour cream dip. And Man clutched his remote control and ate the potato chips swaddled in cholesterol. And Satan saw and said, "It is good." And Man went into cardiac arrest.

And God sighed and created quadruple bypass surgery.

And Satan created HMOs.




posted on Feb, 3 2005 @ 08:14 PM
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According to what I've read, in the koran, and the Bible, is that Humans are the only beings that have free will. Every other being are basically servants. But, if we have free will, and have the "Option", not to worship, or to worship, than how does Satan or lucifer have the testicular fortitude to challenge God in the first place?
I think Satan and God are actually the same character, and to appear to be the nice guy, God has to be seen as only good. Remember God created all, and is all knowing, so Why would he even waste his time creating something that he knows is going to betray him in the first place.
And, remember, as someone posted earlier, Satan is described as going up to heaven and speaking to God personally on behalf of Job. And, there is some other instances where he's reported as going to heaven. Another question is , if he was God's right hand man, and if he goes up to speak to God personally, does he see God's face, and does the other higher plateau angels see his face?



posted on Feb, 3 2005 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by southern_cross3
God did not create evil. He created free will. He gave his creations the ability to turn aside from the path he had chosen for them, though it would only mean suffering in the end. Lucifer, or Satan, exercised his free will and chose to be separated from God for eternity.


Southern Cross

Try reading Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the lord do all these things.



Supposing God is the creator of all and knows everything. He knowing created Satan as an angel who would fall. Knowingly created a man and women who would also fall.

Maybe he doesn't know everything? Why create anything at all knowing you would have to punish it? Somethings wrong with that idea.



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