Is Islam synonymous with terrorism?

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
a reply to: Sahabi

As a former Muslim yourself, you'll be able to point out the violent verses that do not refer to self defence then?

Am I right?
Not including the fraudulent Hadith. If you can.

Let's hear them.


...

Hello Hazardous1408. I believe this is the first that I've had the pleasure of chatting with you

I am well-versed in the "self-defense" argument, because when I was still a Muslim, I often propagated this apologetic stance. Eight years ago, I even created a thread to introduce the concept to ATS:

True Islamic Jihad And It's Beauty



Although you reject the Hadith, you do know that approximately 85% of the 1.6 billion Muslims world-wide are Sunni Muslims who do follow the Hadith?

Many aspects of practical Islam are reliant upon Hadith. Have you ever observed the prayer form of Muslims? Without the Hadith, there are no point-for-point instructions given in the Qur'an that describe how to perform the traditional formalized prayer. Without the Hadith, Muhammad's "Farewell Sermon" would not exist. Without the Hadith, many of the greatest biographies of Muhammad would lose much of their substance.

If we reject all Hadith, we also lose the historic context and circumstances that led to the transmission of each newly revealed set of Qur'anic verses. The science of Tafsir (Qur'anic exegesis) would cease to exist.

You can opine that the Hadith are fraudulent,... express how they were developed after the death of Muhammad,... discuss questionable chains of narration,... and even launch character attacks against the compilers,... but as over one billion Muslims follow the Hadith,... their inclusion in any Islamic theology debate is valid by a factor of over a billion.



[1.]

Muhammad and his followers launched a preemptive campaign of highway robberies known as "The Caravan Raids". They attacked and robbed the caravans outside the scope of self-defense.

Islam attempts to justify these preemptive attacks by mentioning the oppression suffered by the Muslims while they were living in Mecca, and referring to the loss of property and wealth when the Muslims left Mecca.

1.) The Muslims of Mecca voluntarily emigrated to Medina, forfeiting their left-behind property in Mecca. If you leave your home to live as a political refugee in another country, as seen in our modern times, what you leave behind is forfeited.

2.) The merchant caravans were not the people who oppressed and subjugated the Muslims, it was the political and religious ruling class. The caravan merchants are innocent, and are only guilty of economic association with the elite of Mecca. Muhammad and the Muslims were preemptively attacking and robbing innocent caravan merchants.



[2.]

As a combined result of the imposed jizya tax and Muhammad’s destabilization of trading and markets in the area (Caravan Raids), the once welcoming Jews of Medina began to voice public dissident and write degrading accounts and poems about Muhammad. Displeased with the freedom of speech that unhappy Jews were voicing, Muhammad declared unfounded and unsubstantiated accusations of assassination plots being planned against him. Muhammad then ordered many successful assassinations against various Jewish tribe leaders.

The first Jewish tribe of Medina to be targeted was Banu Qaynuga. Muhammad and his army besieged their village for 14 days. Banu Qaynuga then surrendered and all of their land, businesses, wealth, and goods were seized by Muhammad, and the tribe was forcefully expelled from Medina. They eventually settled in Syria.



[3.]

In a campaign to cleanse Medina of its Jewish inhabitants, Muhammad launched an unprovoked assault against the Jewish Tribe known as Banu Nadir who were living in the vicinity of Medina.
(Invasion of Banu Nadir)

Muhammad ordered the assassination of Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, who was one of the leaders of the Banu Nadir tribe. His crime was speaking badly against Islam. The assassination was done in the middle of the night, under the guise of lying to Ka'b to get him to drop his guard. Some Muslims lied to Ka'b about their abandoning Muhammad, and then proceeded to assassinate Ka'b.



[4.]

Because of the assassination of Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, and the attacks and expulsion of other Jewish tribes from Medina, and also due to the constant demands of jizya and alms taxes,... the tribe of Banu Nadir refused to pay yet another alms to Muhammad as "blood money" for the the deaths of two men that died in a skirmish that Muslims had instigated. For refusing to pay the alms, Muhammad accused the Banu Nadir of plotting to assassinate him, which he concluded based on "revelation."

Because of the refusal to pay alms, Muhammad banished the Banu Nadir tribe from Medina. After the banishment, the wealth of Banu Nadir was discovered through Muslim spies and intelligence officers. Muhammad then claimed that Angel Gabriel revealed that the banished Jews were plotting to assassinate him. Because of "Angel Gabriel," Muhammad attacked Banu Nadir, killed their men, enslaved the women and children, and then confiscated all of their wealth.

After the destruction of Banu Nadir, one of the tribe leaders named Kenana ibn al-Rabi was executed. In the accounts of an early Islamic historian, Muhammad ibn Ishaq, it is mentioned that Kenana was tortured in order to discover where Banu Nadir’s wealth and treasure was hidden. After Kenana’s execution, Islam’s prophet Muhammad then married his grieving wife Safiyya bint Huyayy.



[5.]

As a result of Muhammad’s indiscriminate robbery of merchant caravans and his tyrannical attacks against Banu Qaynuga and Banu Nadir, the non-muslim Arabs and Jews of the Meccan area launched a failed attack against Muhammad known as The Battle of the Trenches.

During the Battle of the Trenches, the Banu Qurayza tribe remained neutral and did not participate in the war. However, after winning this war, Muhammad turned his army against Banu Qurayza UNPROVKED, and utterly massacred all of their men, enslaved their women, and seized all property, wealth, and goods.



[6.]

After the robbery, destruction, murder, enslavement, and execution of the Jews of Medina, the Jews who survived gathered with other Jewish groups to the north of Medina in the area of Khaybar. Here the Jews barricaded themselves in their settlement, desperately trying to survive Muhammad’s onslaught.

Muhammad’s forces laid siege to the Jews of Khaybar and after several weeks The Jews surrendered. In order to avoid expulsion or execution, Muhammad ordered that 50% of all of their agricultural harvests would be seized as an alms to Muhammad and his Muslims. However, Muhammad’s second successor Umar ibn al-Khattab later expelled the Jews of Khaybar out of Arabia.



Points 2-6 are taken from my thread:
Islam's Lie: "There Is No Compulsion In Religion" (2:256)

a reply to: Hazardous1408

[7.]

A few years after the "No compulsion in religion" verse was revealed in the Qur'an (2:256), a later set of verses were revealed to abrogate/supersede it.

"1. [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.

2. So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.

3. And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.

4. Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

5. And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

- Qur'an, Suratul Tawbah, ayah 1-5 (9:1-5)

Verse 1-3 state that Allah and Muhammad are now disassociated from all non-believers.

Verse 4 says to honor the remaining treaties with non-believers only until their predetermined length has expired.

Verse 5 says to kill, enslave, and besiege all non-believers anywhere unless they become Muslim, indicated by "repent, prayer, and zakah".



Chapter 9 of the Qur'an contains many of the last verses to be revealed in Islam including:

"O you who have believed, fight those near to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous."

- Quran, Suratul Tawbah, ayat 123 (9:123)

"O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination."

- Quran, Suratul Tawbah, ayah 73 (9:73)

And a few years after this declaration of all-out jihad against non-Muslims, Muhammad gave his "Farewell Sermon" shortly before his death. In this final sermon, Muhammad states that the only superiority among mankind is religious superiority:

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by taqwa (piety through the obedience of Allah) and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood."

• Point:
In the Qur'an, the jihad in Surah 9 abrogates/supersedes the "no compulsion in religion" verse. Additionally, Muhammad's "Final Sermon" commands religious superiority and the separation of Muslims into "one brotherhood" separate from non-Muslims.





I hope this fulfills your request to exclude Hadith evidence.

a reply to: Sahabi

I don't doubt for a second everything you say is true and properly interpreted.

Or have any adversarial feelings because you found truth somewhere else and don't practice Islam anymore.

I am way more educated in Jewish and Christian, "Gnostic" and apocryphal or pseudepigraphal literature, even Zohar, than Hadiths and even to a degree the Qur'an, though that's changing.

I am aware of disturbing content like I was as a Christian with the Bible which happens to make the Qur'an look like a pacifist manifesto, but I digress.

What interests me is the biggest fans of Hadith, probably for the mystical content, are the well known as peaceful Sufis, who have had difficulties but are mostly accepted as Orthodox if not mystics, even a little odd.

My major point is my reason for finally becoming Muslim is I had come to reject the Pauline Christianity of the New Testament and Churches. Because of Paul.

I had developed a sympathy for what truly are innocent victims of persecution and slander, the majority of Muslims especially in America and by prominent American politicians pandering to "Islamaphobe" voters, anger even towards the despicable ploy and people thinking it's healthy for a politician to act this way.

When I found out they theologically rejected the legitimacy of Paul for all the reasons I did I had already decided to convert, but I was happy to hear it and it seemed so appropriately like fate.

And I have to say, the Muslims I know are average citizens who are educated and reasonable and not at all fanatical. Just people trying to live upright and please God while practicing their form of worship.

And tolerant.

I imagine your experience is different and more thorough, but I am fascinated with the books of the Sufis, I have not read Rumi but another guy who writes about gnosis, his name escapes but I will find out, I have it bookmarked.

Maybe you could recommend some authors, I would be interested in any rare books, incorporating the Qur'an and Sunnahs, but philosophical in the nature of the Zohar.

Definitely would appreciate that, thanks.

a reply to: Sahabi

Al Qushayyri is his name. Al Risala is the book.

Have you read it?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: SethTsaddik

Terrorism can be performed by anyone, but most of the attacks are carried out by Islamists and are justified by Islamic scripture. ISIS has members from all over the world, of all races, of all languages; the one thing that connects them is Islam.

You might think it is justified, I don't.

You would be surprised what America does to program its citizens.

It doesn't take a Qur'an or Bible to brainwash people, it is just convient that it is the major book of Middle East religion and not the only reason people do what they do.

Or the real real reason when it comes down to it.

Just like the Talmud with as much disturbing content as it has is used to create fanatics, Hadith and Qur'an are too.

But if there was not already war it would not be so, it's war that is the problem, and literature is not the cause.

Honestly, the invasion and near total annexation of Palestine and Iraq are the problem. We didn't do anything but contribute to all the factors involved in today's mess.

I love America but we are not inspiring the world to be like us anymore because they are sick of our impunity and on a smaller scale Israel's.

Even Israeli newspapers report that many Jews are disgusted by the Israeli government's lack of regard for Palestinian life.

So literature is not really the problem, disturbing or not, used or not during, they don't cause war.

How is belief in Santa any different than a belief in a invisible creator being? If God does not exist what does that say about those who decided to believe it?

originally posted by: GuidedKill
While I don't think all Muslims are terrorists I do believe your religion is archaic and needs to evolve with the modern world or be doomed to the ashes of the past....it's actually Islam's and it's followers choice on how the world views them....

FFS, read a Bible recently?

a reply to: SethTsaddik

All Organized Religion is Terroristic to a Free Thinking Man .

a reply to: SethTsaddik

The terrorists themselves are the cause of terrorism. But humans are led by the content of their beliefs.

It isn't a coincidence that a terrorist act occurs when a certain prophet is caricatured. It isn't war that causes them to do this.

The Wahabi and Salafist elements seem to cause a lot of trouble.

There was once a time Islam welcomed new knowledge.

Now it is synonymous with ignorance and intolerance.

The future of Islam is for its followers to determine.

As it is now, the future doesn't look good.

I don't know if using criminal terror against opposition religious followers are one of the 5 pillars of Islam or not...


I just wanted to share this article by Dave Hodges who is into dispensing Alternative NEWS (True News) to the people..

link: www.thecommonsenseshow.com...

Title of story page:
Can Trump Stop the Muslim Brotherhood Invasion of America?

Only those seeking Sharia in foreign lands.
Those who will accept the countries laws they live in are not.
Otherwise WE CAN'T tell so ALL ARE potential targets until the moderates either decidedly seperate themselves(HOW I wouldn't know) Or when Jihadism is removed from the faith ENTIRELY as an idea against ones fellow man.

a reply to: SethTsaddik

As an EMT-Christian emergency services worker in heavily Middle Eastern Dearborn Michigan...I know that to be untrue.

Yemenis, Arabs, Syrians, Iraqis, Egyptians, Libyans etc, etc...have one thing in common: the Muslim faith. Terrorism is the act of committing or invoking terror. We have America-Christians that have done the same thing.

Its their radical elements and the lack of the rest of the world to get to know and understand their beliefs.*

*I got Christmas gifts from 3 elderly traditionally dressed Muslim women this year and was really surprised. One occasionally makes a small lunch and drops it off (and I know she is really low income-poor).

Most traditional Muslims and their families are quite friendly and compassionate...and have lost much in their own homelands...
Just as my grandparents did coming from Europe at the turn of the last century...

So friend? Muslim meaning TERRORIST? No.

"As-salamu alaykum" English-"Peace-be-upon-you" *

*Typically, the response to the greeting is "waʿalaykumu s-salām", English- "and upon you, peace").

God Bless.....MS

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I wonder if that's why islam is so attractive to so many people (men for the most part I think)...in so many ways it seems to appeal to the lowest, most base part of man's nature. It condones (which in turn promotes) rape, murder, theft, abuse of women and children and any number of devient acts. Things that weren't even questioned in the 4th or 5th century, but probably served as more of a come-on to join roving gangs of barbaric, illiterate criminals in the guise of being governed by "God's word" and rewarded with what? SEX.

The really sad part is that this is something that even has to be addressed today instead of having been reformed as rational, CIVILIZED society developed throughout time. One would think that after all the many, many CENTURIES that have passed islam would/could/should have kept up with and embraced changing attitudes of people towards one another...in that striving for tolerance, acceptance and continually improving caring humanitarian relations with each other would have overcome the need (?) and desire to dominate. No, we're not there yet, but as long as we continue to try to move upward and forward for the sake of goodness in the name of humanity instead of some "god" only a certain percentage of any population believes in we just may make it.

For something that's supposed to "save" mankind, to bring contentment to the soul and spark worthy ambitions and love towards each other...religion has fallen so painfully short of its supposed goal.

As pointed out, religion has been more of a bane to our existence than just about anything else ever contrived by humans. After all, it has been responsible for more mindless death and destruction than ALL the war and disease combined ever to happen on our world. Other than reasons put forth with little to no real support...on the whole what does religion per se really have to offer?

originally posted by: Ohanka
If Islam was synonymous with terrorism, shouldn't the entire world be in flames? There's 1.4 billion of them. I'm sure each of them could blow up 7 other people.

As that hasn't happened, and terrorism committed in the name of Islam is perpetrated primarily by groups with connections to Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi ideology, I would say no.

Your Quran is available to anyone who cares to get one...And the people who do read thru the Quran know that the Quran IS Shariah and IS terrorism...A little disingenuous to point to the Saudis as practicing terrorism in the name of Islam when the Saudis adhere more closely to your 'book' than the other sects...

If you support Sharia you believe in terrorism for the infidels...And if you don't believe that, why be a muzlim becasuse that's what your religion teaches...

originally posted by: Iscool

originally posted by: Ohanka
If Islam was synonymous with terrorism, shouldn't the entire world be in flames? There's 1.4 billion of them. I'm sure each of them could blow up 7 other people.

As that hasn't happened, and terrorism committed in the name of Islam is perpetrated primarily by groups with connections to Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi ideology, I would say no.

Your Quran is available to anyone who cares to get one...And the people who do read thru the Quran know that the Quran IS Shariah and IS terrorism...A little disingenuous to point to the Saudis as practicing terrorism in the name of Islam when the Saudis adhere more closely to your 'book' than the other sects...

If you support Sharia you believe in terrorism for the infidels...And if you don't believe that, why be a muzlim becasuse that's what your religion teaches...

I read quran and disagree completely with you.

Again, while Islam may not directly equate to terrorism, how can you defend anything that promotes giving away your underage daughter like a commodity?

A girl is given as bride

Many believe that their Islamic religion instructs fathers to marry off their daughters at puberty.

"If it is not done, our society thinks parents have not fulfilled their religious obligation," says Faisal Tangwani, regional coordinator for the independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan in nearby Multan.

Ahmed sees the hand of God in his daughter's marriage to a disabled man.

"It was by God's will that he was chosen," he says. "It was her fate."

Yes. 'God's will'. Sure. No, it had nothing to do with what the Muslim father wanted.

Thanks, Islam - for promoting 6th century thinking in a 21st century society! Go get'em, Islam!

a reply to: DerBeobachter

I'm there with you.

originally posted by: Ohanka
If Islam was synonymous with terrorism, shouldn't the entire world be in flames? There's 1.4 billion of them. I'm sure each of them could blow up 7 other people.

.

Yes but yours is a numerical argument. Such arguments are futile is presented to enumerate idiots! Star for you buddy

a reply to: mysterioustranger
Thanks for the badly-needed injection of sanity into this discussion.