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King Donald's Anti-Labor Secretary Begrudges "Overprotected" Workers' Breaks

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posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 02:54 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: MagicCow

What I don't get is why some of you are such loyalists to Trump that you feel the need to defend him even when nobody is attacking him.

This thread isn't about Trump. It's about the new Sec. of Labor. He may have been chosen by Trump but that really doesn't matter at this point.

It's like you're so afraid and insecure about Trump being exposed you even attempt to defend him even when the topic isn't about him. Why is that???

Why can't you separate issues like this from Trump himself??? Because you're comments actually don't have any meaning when they're about defending Trump when nobody is talking about him.


Ok, I will run with this. Maybe it's because the OP starts off with "King Donald" then goes on to talk about him? Maybe direct your question to the OP and why the topic didn't start with Andrew Puzder's name? Oh right....most people would have no clue as to who that was and the thread would die after the first post.....




posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 02:55 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

The problem with that analogy is that you've made "some" people into paperclips but left other People as people who own the paperclips.

People aren't paperclips for other other People. They're still people, not property.

Yikes....



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 03:00 PM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

Ok, but the conversations thus far other than from those who want to point out that part of the title has been about this labor secretary not Trump. We've even been talking about the broader implications of automation and other things.

While the rest of us simply ignore something insignificant in the title and move to actually discuss what's important others just get stuck picking out details they don't like but also don't exactly matter.

Why not just move past it or instead of getting dramatic and butt hurt over it, just point out the issue in the title and ask him to change it or something. Why attack him personally and make condescending jokes or whatever??? That's not constructive and takes away from the actual conversations happening. It happens in a lot of threads too, not just this one.

I'm not saying you shouldn't say something if you want to, but rather than make it the center of the discussion just point it out and move on to what's important and don't dwell on it.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 03:22 PM
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originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: Vasa Croe


I am the same. The only person I whine to and whines to me is my wife because we have a business together as well as my consulting outside of that.

People don't seem to understand they have a choice. If you don't like your job then do something else. If you have put yourself into a position that you HAVE to work that job then maybe look at yourself to figure out a way to get out of that position. The majority always expect someone else to figure out an answer to their problem.

I hear the cries of school debt, living expenses, having kids, etc...well...these are all things that the person themselves brought on themselves. These are not decision I, or anyone else made them make.


So the only factors governing a person's employment are personal choices? So any old shmuck could do any job if they only wanted to badly enough?

Perhaps that's what Trump should have told voters in Rust Belt states. Those poor decision makers don't seem to understand personal accountability at all! Look at how they responded to his rhetoric on jobs! LOSERS.

While it's certainly possible that most individuals have at least some capacity to improve their lot in life, that sort of microeconomic proposition doesn't scale to a macroeconomic solution for large swaths of people. There are a lot of folks who simply aren't suited for much more than menial labor. There are a finite number of "good jobs" at any moment.

Consider an analogy of ladders. There are only so many ladders with so many rungs. A lot of folks aren't equipped to climb those ladders but even if they were, more ladder climbers doesn't mean more ladders. Labor supply doesn't increase labor demand. In fact, increasing labor supply with the same or decreasing labor demand only makes the labor worth less to those with the demand.

Do you believe if poor people were only better educated and more driven, there'd be no poor people? I doubt you believe that. If to start 2017, we could magically endow every poor person with a four year degree, an intellect to make use of it and a drive to climb those ladders, they'd just climb the existing ladders, displacing everyone else below them with those on the bottom rungs falling right off.

Maybe the answer is more ladders? Small business development is always a fun thing to yammer about at a podium. Unfortunately, small businesses are in competition with one another for a share of a finite market (and a finite share of the money of potential customers).

Maybe the answer is more rungs on existing ladders? This seems to be the tact a few European countries have taken. France lowered the number of hours in their work week. The problem with this is of course that companies can simply pay people less to compensate for the expense, make people work harder, innovate, automate, outsource, offshore, etc. Clearly that's no silver bullet.

A number of countries have some level of work sharing. Germany is commonly cited for their success in this area.

Then there are basic income schemes popular even among some libertarian economists. I don't have a ready answer but I certainly believe it's a discussion that's long long overdue.

I do know that blaming workers is ridiculous and threatening them into accepting lower standards with threats of progress is downright disgusting.


No those are not the only governing factors and not any old schmuck can do it. I would say that any old schmuck can work in fast food and that is pretty evident.

If there are a finite number of jobs at any moment and progressives are calling for non-progress in tech that is automating jobs, then why are progressives pushing opening borders for menial laborers to take away the menial jobs that these people could have when automation DOES take their job away? It's really funny to me the complaints of keeping borders open to everyone while at the same time complaining there are no jobs for people. I know of a fast way to make around 11 million jobs open up, but the left doesn't want that option either....this applies to your ladder analogy and the number of climbers as well.

As far as poor, I do not believe being poor constitutes a lack of education or drive. To your comment, if we magically endowed everyone with a 4 year degree and drive to work, no I don't think there would be enough jobs currently to handle the seekers. I DO think it would give a major advantage in creating jobs and ideas for new industries to create new jobs. Companies hire people who are educated and have drive at the top so they can grow a company through ideas which creates jobs.

I don't really see anyone blaming the workers or forcing them to accept anything. It isn't like every fast food restaurant in the US is suddenly going to become automated overnight.

As far as threats of progress, I also don't see anyone threatening progress either. The industry isn't telling them get better at your job or else we will replace you with a machine, though I know that is what most want to see. It is the industry realizing it can be automated and cut down on overhead and certain aspects of issues with employees. This is what progress does unfortunately. If we continue to advance our civilization on the pace we are then things like this will continue to happen as they have. Automating fast food is still a really strange thing to be arguing when so many have lost actual skilled jobs from automation and outsourcing in the past.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Ok, but the conversations thus far other than from those who want to point out that part of the title has been about this labor secretary not Trump. We've even been talking about the broader implications of automation and other things.

While the rest of us simply ignore something insignificant in the title and move to actually discuss what's important others just get stuck picking out details they don't like but also don't exactly matter.

Why not just move past it or instead of getting dramatic and butt hurt over it, just point out the issue in the title and ask him to change it or something. Why attack him personally and make condescending jokes or whatever??? That's not constructive and takes away from the actual conversations happening. It happens in a lot of threads too, not just this one.

I'm not saying you shouldn't say something if you want to, but rather than make it the center of the discussion just point it out and move on to what's important and don't dwell on it.


I understand what you're saying.

I also understand that this is the Mud Pit and is the OP's chosen arena to speak to. As such the OP likely understands that many of the posters will do exactly what you say and veer from topic and make personal attacks and whatnot. If you look at all of the OP's threads in the Mud Pit it is a common theme. He doesn't seem to shy away from it, nor try to prevent it from happening, so I gather it is an intended reaction to garner more views and reactions from those that oppose his views.

I can't speak for the OP, but that would be my assessment of why.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 03:35 PM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

I see your point as well.

I didn't realize this was in the Mud Pit either until you now.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 03:44 PM
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the thing that people seem to overlook when it comes to automation is that it is expensive to automate.
this guy is griping about the half hour lunchbreak and the 10 or 15 minute breaks that he is mandated to give his employees... well, so let's say he did automate...
machines, believe it or not need breaks also, or else they break. and well, what will this guy do if after avoiding the regular shut down of the equipment time and time again, a major piece of machinery breaks and he is no shut down while the parts are ordered, shipped and the machine is fixed, would could be days if not weeks??
between the cost of the machinery, the cost of maintenence, the cost of repairs...
I'm not really sure that it would be cheaper than the low wage earners anyways.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 03:53 PM
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originally posted by: dawnstar
the thing that people seem to overlook when it comes to automation is that it is expensive to automate.
this guy is griping about the half hour lunchbreak and the 10 or 15 minute breaks that he is mandated to give his employees... well, so let's say he did automate...
machines, believe it or not need breaks also, or else they break. and well, what will this guy do if after avoiding the regular shut down of the equipment time and time again, a major piece of machinery breaks and he is no shut down while the parts are ordered, shipped and the machine is fixed, would could be days if not weeks??
between the cost of the machinery, the cost of maintenence, the cost of repairs...
I'm not really sure that it would be cheaper than the low wage earners anyways.


Exactly. I don't see complete industry automation ever happening. Sure, in high volume areas they might because those places can handle the cost because of their customer base. A town of a few thousand people with a couple fast food places could never support it. In the long run it would likely help with overhead, but the short term it would be very expensive to undertake, especially being on the cutting edge of it.

It would likely work as most IT manufacturing and 3rd party contracts do, where the 3rd party companies house parts and have engineers on hand that can service multiple different types of machines. They would have a service contract that gave them the option of a few different response times and there would be a list of the most often replaced part, such as hard drives.

The real money in this is the service contracts and the software that runs the machines. I am wondering if there will be another transaction processing company that will standardize how these machines operate transactions in order to skim a few cents off for services here and there. You would have a lot of revenue from that. The machines themselves will always be scrap after a few years and can be reproduced quickly, likely having plenty on standby for shipping at multiple warehouses.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 03:54 PM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

LInk, please?

Oh, nevermind; I found it: www.sackoftroy.com...

Those are children starving because they have no parents and no income. That's what you propose, not me. I want everyone who wants a job to have a job, and to have the best job they can get.

(See? I knew very few would actually get it.)

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 03:55 PM
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a reply to: MagicCow


Can we include serial numbers for these paper clips to ensure those that purchased them are the ones using them?


Works for me. I should have included that.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 03:58 PM
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a reply to: dawnstar

If it's not cheaper then they wouldn't do it. It's not like they have something against people. They just want bigger profits. The fact is that automation is cheaper in the long run. That's why they're doing it.

People are more expensive than a mindless soulless machine. Our Technology gets better faster and more importantly cheaper the more we advance. It is inevitable that machines replace people as work force. It has been happening since people started working. That's the purpose of Technology.

However, that doesn't have to be a problem in and of itself. It's good to have machines work for us. Our problem however is that our technology has advanced very rapidly while other areas of society haven't. Those areas need to catch up to a different world. We need to evolve better ideas of how to run society, economics, community, etc. Our population is another issue and these are all tied together. We need fresh minds thinking about how to make these things work in the future. Too many people think we can go back where things made sense and worked smoothly. We can't. We need to adapt to the changes instead of fighting against them because we can't stop our progression in certain areas.

I've read a lot about this and what some of the best minds are talking about and it is a real problem without many good solutions. Some of them are kinda freaking out too because without any positive solutions the default ones that we'll be forced into having aren't too good. People are working to solve this though, but it's a very difficult problem. There are so many different perspectives and differences in ideology that implementing solutions is difficult even if one is found. Sadly if we don't come up with any good solutions, like it or not well be dragged into the future kicking and screaming whether we like where it's headed or not. That is what most of them are trying to avoid.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 04:28 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm
in time yes. I've worked in mostly manufacturing environments. some like my last job, didn't have much automation at all.. others were more automated.
machines break down... and usually when they do, you end up having a human or humans standing in that spot of the production line doing the job of that machine or the whole line is shut down. and even when the machines work just find, usually you have quit a few people still needed to ensure that the machine is stocked and constantly watching what is being produced. where a printer can detect a problem within few prints, well, an automated machine can print out many more before the problem is found if it's not watched closely.

so, yes, given more time we might be at a spot where a significant number of workers will no longer be needed, I don't think that we will ever be at the point where human involvement in the process isn't necessary anytime soon. the duties of the jobs might be different but there still will be jobs.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 04:44 PM
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a reply to: dawnstar

Probably not completely but it will be significant. Some industries are more effected than others too. Take print media for example. What used to require whole buildings full of people and press machines were all but destroyed and rather quickly by the computer and internet. Digitizing things has a huge effect on the markets that deal with them. This isn't a total loss as there are still specialized jobs happening. But the digital makeover has largely removed the business of print media.

At the same time it's effecting other industries like music and entertainment. Video rental and theaters have had to change and when was the last time you actually had to buy a cd?? It's not all bad though as long as you're able to adjust for the change. We can now get any music or film quickly and easily with almost no cost. However this removes the normal way of marketing it as well.

It's more difficult to make money as a musician or artist because selling it when there is so much out there for free makes the profit hard to come by meaning less motivation to get in to that business. However, it's made it more free and accessible for anyone with talent to become heard by others. No longer is it the big promoters who make those choices for the people. If you have talent you can youtube it to the world and become famous and known all by yourself.

It's a matter of reinventing what aspects of society progress it forward. Making never ending profits and growth have become dysfunctional to a large part. Cooperation, crowd funding and sustainable business models seem to be the better options now and less destructive to society at large.

We need to change the motivational veins in society which is also growing exponentially too. Consumerism cannot continue the way it has been going. While at the same time the power of economics has to play a huge part in it as well.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 05:01 PM
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originally posted by: MagicCow

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: MagicCow

originally posted by: watchitburn
The OP has become too partisan to function.

So we're going to have a Dept of Labor that isn't going to chase businesses out of the country with ridiculous regulations.

Oh nos, you means we's gonna have to do works at our jobs? That's racist!


Was that your attempt at under the table racism?
Comments like yours are the norm for GLP and stormfront members.

Let me put it in a way you may understand - Let's say CPS was hiring a new director and the person
they hired was a convicted child pedophile. Would you see a fundamental clash in interests?




No idea on the comment, but I took it as trying to portray a low wage worker at a fast food restaurant and it is pretty accurate. The majority of the ones I've ordered from are not well spoken. If you look at the comment as racist because you personally are associating a specific race that you believe speaks like that then it would be your own racial bias you're imparting on the comment.

As far as your example....you're comparing a business tycoon (who wants technological advancement in an industry known for poor performance by its employees, who complain they want more money despite poor performance) to a pedophile? How is that logical? And I would say that comparison is more distasteful than your claiming the other poster is a racist.


I don't care how you took it - I know the root place it came from.
You may not visit those sites or maybe you do - but those comments are the order of the day.
The comment you know damn well where it comes from in that phonetic and you trying to blanket it
shows me more about you than the poster I commented on.
The other poster is racist - defend him as you might it doesn't change. it.


I'm comparing for his sake so his understands what conflict of interest is.
We're trying to bring jobs back to the United States and you're more interested in defending
a "tycoon" that's only interested in automating them.
Go wash your mouth out if you don't like the truth.

There are plenty of sites that will cater to your echo chamber needs.



WOW! Another mind reader right here at ATS! One who "knows" what others are thinking and "knows" they are trying to hide the truth. I'm constantly amazed at the numbers of psychics we have here in our little group. Funny thing is, if someone claims some psychic ability, most of these "knowers" will bash them quickly and call them all sorts of nasty names. Oh, the irony.

I'm sitting, just waiting for the day that they develop robots to do the plumber's job. Perhaps then getting a plumber on Christmas day won't be an impossible task.
Automating the fast food world won't bother me one whit---I don't eat that stuff.
I'm sure there were cries and howls just like the one posed by our erstwhile OP when the automobile began displacing the carriage and buggy manufacturers. Lots of folks lost their jobs in that fiasco. Horse and mule dealers were made poor when farm work became mechanized. It was horrible for the entire first world! Oh, the horror from which we've never recovered....



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 05:08 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm

okay, let's take print media. I worked for a screen printing company that bought a digital printer, nice machine, could really print out some nice banners. although...
we also have three to four other machines, plus another press that we would use sometimes that was so old that I wouldn't call it a machine. the old machine, mainly because of it's size, took four people to run... at least.
the others, including the digital printer, required two people on hand.
sometimes more.
that is just to operate the machine and produce the print, it doesn't include the finishing of the product, the prepress artwork, ect. you would still need someone to prepare the artwork for the press, weather that be scanning the image or breaking it down for four color process or whatever, you would still need someone to watch the machine run to ensure quality and that it didn't run out of ink or whatever, and you would need someone to ensure that the machine was stocked with paper, which was why our digital printer needed two people on hand... it was used to print large banners and well, it took two people to load the heavy rolls onto the machine. the major advantages of the digital press was that it completely cut off the screen room, and that it was much more consistant in it's print. the draw back was if it wasn't watched and there was a problem, be it from a programming error, misaligned stock, or just dirt on the printhead.... it could throw out a heck of alot more garbage before it was detected.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 05:08 PM
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originally posted by: diggindirt

originally posted by: MagicCow

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: MagicCow

originally posted by: watchitburn
The OP has become too partisan to function.

So we're going to have a Dept of Labor that isn't going to chase businesses out of the country with ridiculous regulations.

Oh nos, you means we's gonna have to do works at our jobs? That's racist!


Was that your attempt at under the table racism?
Comments like yours are the norm for GLP and stormfront members.

Let me put it in a way you may understand - Let's say CPS was hiring a new director and the person
they hired was a convicted child pedophile. Would you see a fundamental clash in interests?




No idea on the comment, but I took it as trying to portray a low wage worker at a fast food restaurant and it is pretty accurate. The majority of the ones I've ordered from are not well spoken. If you look at the comment as racist because you personally are associating a specific race that you believe speaks like that then it would be your own racial bias you're imparting on the comment.

As far as your example....you're comparing a business tycoon (who wants technological advancement in an industry known for poor performance by its employees, who complain they want more money despite poor performance) to a pedophile? How is that logical? And I would say that comparison is more distasteful than your claiming the other poster is a racist.


I don't care how you took it - I know the root place it came from.
You may not visit those sites or maybe you do - but those comments are the order of the day.
The comment you know damn well where it comes from in that phonetic and you trying to blanket it
shows me more about you than the poster I commented on.
The other poster is racist - defend him as you might it doesn't change. it.


I'm comparing for his sake so his understands what conflict of interest is.
We're trying to bring jobs back to the United States and you're more interested in defending
a "tycoon" that's only interested in automating them.
Go wash your mouth out if you don't like the truth.

There are plenty of sites that will cater to your echo chamber needs.



WOW! Another mind reader right here at ATS! One who "knows" what others are thinking and "knows" they are trying to hide the truth. I'm constantly amazed at the numbers of psychics we have here in our little group. Funny thing is, if someone claims some psychic ability, most of these "knowers" will bash them quickly and call them all sorts of nasty names. Oh, the irony.

I'm sitting, just waiting for the day that they develop robots to do the plumber's job. Perhaps then getting a plumber on Christmas day won't be an impossible task.
Automating the fast food world won't bother me one whit---I don't eat that stuff.
I'm sure there were cries and howls just like the one posed by our erstwhile OP when the automobile began displacing the carriage and buggy manufacturers. Lots of folks lost their jobs in that fiasco. Horse and mule dealers were made poor when farm work became mechanized. It was horrible for the entire first world! Oh, the horror from which we've never recovered....



I'd buy a plumber robot in a heart beat.

And yeah...the fight between Uber and taxis is still going on and not even automated yet. But nobody cares about the folks that drive taxis...besides Uber is progressive and all.

It's kind of funny to me that progressives want progress, but only in the manner in which they want progress....not across the board. For some reason some industries should progress while others remain as they are...the picking and choosing still has me baffled as there seems to be no rhyme or reason....it's like someone picks a topic to be upset over and suddenly that's the topic, regardless of how many other similar topics are happening at the same time.

Why is the fast food worker suddenly it? What's next...automated street cleaners and garbage companies?
edit on 12/29/16 by Vasa Croe because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 05:19 PM
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a reply to: dawnstar

I worked in that industry for a while too. I'm not saying it takes people out all at once. But each new advance removes them more and more.

That machine that took 4 people to work replaced how many 10's of people that used to do that job by hand???

Each time it advances it shrinks the need for human interaction a little more.

Truck drivers will be automatic driving trucks. Delivery by Drone. Etc. Etc. It doesn't take people out all together. Not until really advanced AI that is. But it does remove us from some things. Which is why we make it in the first place. Machines do the jobs that kill us too. Which is a good thing.

That's why I'm saying it's not a bad thing unless we don't figure out how to deal with the side effects of our own advancement. We just need to adjust society to function within the new ways instead of thinking we can keep doing other connected things the same way we have in the past. Society is a multi function machine itself and supercharging certain parts of it and leaving the rest as the same antiquated stuff as before won't work. You have to keep everything working together properly.

Sometimes that just means upgrading some parts. Sometimes it means removing them. Or replacing them with something better. But you can't have half your car made for fomula 1 and the rest be from a 1930's ford pickup.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 05:39 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm
actually, that "machine" that took four people to operate because of it's size, and the size of what was being printing... it took one person to actually do the printing, it took four of us to put the banners on the press and then move them to the dryer...
I've also printed on strictly manual printers... no electricity needed... unless you wanted the ink to dry quicker...
they only took one person. no, you aren't gonna print alot of items real fast, but it was fine for our small orders and to be honest, we spent more time setting up and tearing down than we did printing them. but the only thing that was "new" in that shop was the automatic cutter that they bought. which, again, had it's advantages, as well as some disadvantages.. mainly advantages since it was a pain in the neck trying to line up the print on misformed pieces that would have to be later trimmed into the correct shape because the cutter wasn't consistent.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe


No those are not the only governing factors and not any old schmuck can do it. I would say that any old schmuck can work in fast food and that is pretty evident. If there are a finite number of jobs at any moment and progressives are calling for non-progress in tech that is automating jobs, then why are progressives pushing opening borders for menial laborers to take away the menial jobs that these people could have when automation DOES take their job away? It's really funny to me the complaints of keeping borders open to everyone while at the same time complaining there are no jobs for people. I know of a fast way to make around 11 million jobs open up, but the left doesn't want that option either....this applies to your ladder analogy and the number of climbers as well.


Now you're just being ridiculous. Progressives are calling for "non-progress in tech that is automating jobs" and pushing for "open borders?" That's news to me. Sure, there are some progressives who are for open borders just as there are some conservatives (including many libertarians) who are for open borders. Then there are others who believe that in the future, some degree of "open borders" policy might be a good idea.

Let's set all that aside though and examine the crux of your assertion — reducing population increases jobs.

Well gee. I guess we can thank our lucky stars for all those abortions then right? Oh, wait! That's not how economies work! Like other people, illegal aliens purchase goods and services from businesses that *gasp* employ people.


As far as poor, I do not believe being poor constitutes a lack of education or drive. To your comment, if we magically endowed everyone with a 4 year degree and drive to work, no I don't think there would be enough jobs currently to handle the seekers. I DO think it would give a major advantage in creating jobs and ideas for new industries to create new jobs. Companies hire people who are educated and have drive at the top so they can grow a company through ideas which creates jobs.


Hold on there Bernie Vasa Croe Clinton! I'm all for education and there's certainly nothing wrong with producing more engineers and the like but that's not really a solution to the problem of human labor being phased out by technology. Creating new industries certainly isn't a bad idea either but unless you're creating jobs that robots can't do and making a good or providing a service that other countries are unable to provide, the net result in the long term is no change.


I don't really see anyone blaming the workers or forcing them to accept anything. It isn't like every fast food restaurant in the US is suddenly going to become automated overnight.


That is in fact what many in business are doing and have been doing, including Puzder. No, it won't happen overnight but once it happens, it won't take long.


As far as threats of progress, I also don't see anyone threatening progress either. The industry isn't telling them get better at your job or else we will replace you with a machine, though I know that is what most want to see. It is the industry realizing it can be automated and cut down on overhead and certain aspects of issues with employees. This is what progress does unfortunately. If we continue to advance our civilization on the pace we are then things like this will continue to happen as they have. Automating fast food is still a really strange thing to be arguing when so many have lost actual skilled jobs from automation and outsourcing in the past.


There are almost 4 million people working in fast food now. Leisure and hospitality in total? 15 million. Retail? Another 15 million plus. The jobs that have been lost to automation and outsourcing aren't coming back, at least not in any sort of numbers that are going to make much difference. It's weird that you basically seem to be agreeing with me on many points now but here's you in the post I was replying to:


People don't seem to understand they have a choice. If you don't like your job then do something else. If you have put yourself into a position that you HAVE to work that job then maybe look at yourself to figure out a way to get out of that position.

The majority always expect someone else to figure out an answer to their problem. I hear the cries of school debt, living expenses, having kids, etc...well...these are all things that the person themselves brought on themselves. These are not decision I, or anyone else made them make.


If we all agree that progress is reducing the need for human labor, wtf are you going on about with "these are all things that the person themselves brought on themselves?" That's some kind of crazy conservative cognitive dissonance.

Just to reiterate: progress isn't a bad thing. I'm not anti-automation. In fact, I'm very much pro-automation. The problem is technological progress, it's that we're not progressing the employment model accordingly so instead of the benefits of that progress trickling down through society, the wealthy are simply making more money than ever while we're eliminating people from the workforce and supplementing employment deficits with social welfare.

I think our positions are probably closer than they appear but you seem intent on holding on to some outmoded conservative rhetoric that I interpret as blaming the unemployed/underemployed.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 06:02 PM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

Bingo!!! Someone who understands.

I honestly have no idea how fast workers became the most important class of workers in our civilization. Like most others in my youth, I worked in the fast food industry for about 10 minutes---back when the very idea of "fast food" was still relatively new in our town. I really thought having a "real job" with a pay stub would be superior to the farm work I'd been doing all my life. I thought it would certainly be better than babysitting somebody's brat children (one of the few jobs open to teenaged females back then) but once I found out what it was really like, I couldn't wait to find something else. As other posters have pointed out, it is a choice that we make---where we work, if we work for others or for ourselves. I suppose that's the part that some just don't get.

In the end I found that I preferred working for others and leaving the headaches of running a business to them. I was always able to negotiate for my wage and working conditions. That was because I made choices to get me to the point in my life where I was in charge.

I listened in something akin to awe and revulsion just a few days ago as I listened to a 28 year-old relative of mine who dropped out of high school and is working fast food/convenience store jobs whining about how he's a slave because he has to work two jobs to pay his baby mama and avoid going to jail for not paying child support. He actually believes, apparently, that because he doesn't like the baby mama anymore, he shouldn't be responsible for the baby he helped to create. In all honesty, it was all I could do to sit there and let him go on and on. But I didn't take him to raise. I didn't point out to him that nobody held a gun to his head to make him buy a vehicle that was out of his pay grade. Nobody held a gun to his head to make him spend the thousands of dollars he claims to have on his body in "ink." Nobody forced him to pay $700 for a little yappy dog. But he sees himself as a slave nonetheless---and thinks someone should free him. Oh the horror!



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