My brother said... (about dress code and rape)

originally posted by: Bluesma
You are not a child.

In comparison to you she is. She is certainly young enough to be your daughter. She hasn't had your decades of experience, despite her youth though she has experienced things that you haven't. You yourself admit, you have insufficient experience yourself to understand her experience, yet you lack the maturity and wisdom to recognise this and instead have the arrogance to tell her how she should feel and behave about something you have no experience and demonstrably no understanding of.

I have never considered geezlouise to be an attention seeker, have you ever made a thread where you weren't the central topic? What position are you in to judge? She's expressive, but then she is a very intelligent, eloquent and talented young lady. I don't always understand her, I don't always agree with her, but I admire her moxy and forthrightness and enjoy that immensely.

a reply to: geezlouise

I agree with you, but I have a caveat, it has been in the news how some refugee/immigrants that are used to seeing women fully dressed have been reacting poorly to western women and their style of dress. Not the womens fault at all.
But if you lived in a community that had a recent surge of these types people, caution would be advised, it's not fair of coarse.
But there are lot's of things in life that are unfair and unjust, just like when a thief breaks in and steals from your car or your house, a woman can have her dignity stolen.
I have the right to keep my car and house unlocked, but is it advisable ?

The counter point to this is what women wear at the beach, which is almost nothing, yet you don't hear of women being raped in huge numbers around beaches. So it negates the point of women wearing too little causing rape, maybe it's the atmosphere and vibe more than what is being worn?

I think people should be free even to wear no clothing if that is what they want. Don't see how this would cause any problem, usually, they only need a towel for when they're sitting in public locations.

That said, if you're in a bar with strangers watch your drink, and try to have others who have your back with you, people who're skilled with hands can easily slip stuff in without you noticing. I'd also suggest for a law to allow a cloud connected always recording sound and preferably audiovisual device on, in that case in the event of being alone with someone if that person takes advantage of you while drunk or uses force, it's caught on tape.

Regards victim blaming. I don't think sexy clothing places blame on the victim. That said for example if you go into a dark alley at 1 am with a reputation of muggings, or if you go into ISIS occupied territory, and perhaps even join ISIS, well that's on you.

a reply to: geezlouise

Interesting article to add to it if I may.

Bad things, happen to people sometimes. Sometimes bad things happen to some people, all the time. This has nothing to do with the person or their surroundings. (Speaking numbers wise and probability) So whether we are talking rape, hit and run or a full blown attack/stabbing. These are all crimes that happen to someone, somewhere in the world at some point in time. IT is, horrible that is happens. However it will statistically happen to someone, somewhere. So, with that in mind. Does this have anything to do with what someone is wearing? Nope. Rapists are opportunists, so those in that mindset are not likely to have the moment, the person they find (in lack of better taste, who they find attractive) and the ability to do something about it all in one fell swoop. So for those attacked, its about situation not always who you are and how your dressed. IF that makes sense.

Sad thing is, I could walk down the street and be attacked tomorrow giving someone the wrong look. Who knows. Best thing to do is to get on with your day. Otherwise, those horrible people have already won. We dont want that.

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: Bluesma

You are not cool.

Adults who are victims of crime have my sympathy. As well as adults who experienced childhood trauma.

Of course they have my sympathy too. Lots of adults have experienced childhood trauma. But they also deserve to know they can choose to stop continuuing to be victims as adults. It is not because one was once a victim that they are condemned to be victimized again and again the rest of their lives. (and not pertaining ony to being victims of rape - painting "Victim" on your forehead invites victimization of all sorts).

originally posted by: Anaana

originally posted by: Bluesma
You are not a child.

In comparison to you she is. She is certainly young enough to be your daughter. She hasn't had your decades of experience, despite her youth though she has experienced things that you haven't. You yourself admit, you have insufficient experience yourself to understand her experience, yet you lack the maturity and wisdom to recognise this and instead have the arrogance to tell her how she should feel and behave about something you have no experience and demonstrably no understanding of.

I have never considered geezlouise to be an attention seeker, have you ever made a thread where you weren't the central topic? What position are you in to judge? She's expressive, but then she is a very intelligent, eloquent and talented young lady. I don't always understand her, I don't always agree with her, but I admire her moxy and forthrightness and enjoy that immensely.

She isyoung enough to be my daughter, and so I respond to her as I would my own daughter.
I did not tell her how to act , I exposed to her other potential choices of behavior and the ways they can be useful and beneficial to her.

Despite my being a very open person, you do not know everything about me either. I was raped at five years old. I made a conscious decision at some point to stop holding onto victimization as a definition of who I am. I got to see firsthand, experiencially, the benefits of such a chnge of mind, so I can speak about that. When she asks, "Why decide to stop calling oneself victim? What is the interest in that?" - I am in the right position to answer Why.

I did not tell her she must, I explained to her why some people decide instead "I was once a victim, in a specific event in the past. I am not a victim right now." She asked why, on a public forum.

I never said anything about her NOT being an eloquent and intelligent person, that has nothing to do with anything I said. (stop trying to put words in my mouth to paint me as a villain)

You yourself admit, you have insufficient experience yourself to understand her experience

That also, is just a blatant lie. I never said such a thing. Not once. I did say, from the beginning, and many times, that she should separate HER experience from being ALL experiences concerning rape. There is a wide variety of contexts and situations, and hers is not of the most common type in the USA. So what might pertain some, does not necessarily pertain to hers. Her therapist was right about HER experience, and was speaking to her of HER experience in particular. (which yes, I have had also - that does mean I no longer recognize the whole wide array of differing experiences as existing). Part of why my mother turned to specializing in such crimes was because of what happened to me.

originally posted by: KyoZero
a reply to: Bluesma

ok straight up question

If a women dresses scantily clad and is sexually assaulted at a club....what percentage of fault do you lay on the attacker and the victim?

ALL fault goes on the attacker.

I am male and a parent. I am also a heterosexual. I can tell you that I have seem a woman wearing a Burkha and notice her beautiful eyes. I then wondered what she looked like underneath... I only make this confession to point out that it has nothing to do with how a woman dresses. As a man and an adult human being I also reject the implication that because a woman wears something revealing I as a man cannot control myself and must immediately rape her...

There is something called see and don't touch. If a woman is attractive and revealing some skin it is not even an invitation to go and chat her up much less rape her.

originally posted by: Tiger5
I am male and a parent. I am also a heterosexual. I can tell you that I have seem a woman wearing a Burkha and notice her beautiful eyes. I then wondered what she looked like underneath... I only make this confession to point out that it has nothing to do with how a woman dresses. As a man and an adult human being I also reject the implication that because a woman wears something revealing I as a man cannot control myself and must immediately rape her...

There is something called see and don't touch. If a woman is attractive and revealing some skin it is not even an invitation to go and chat her up much less rape her.

But the question is not about a normal man. (it is not about wearing burkas either, which no one has suggested to be a good idea). The question is - do abnormal men, with psychological and mental disabilities exist in public places?

The studies all suggest they do. The statistics prove they do. They are 100% responsible for their behavior, but it is wise to counsel your daughter on being highly aware of their environment, and their role in it, in every moment. Just common sense. Don't you think?

a reply to: Bluesma

As a parent of three girls of course I had to tell them some home truths like "Stop showing so much thigh on the way to school". "Don't trust men!!!". There are very dangerous people out there and people should take reasonable care out there. However thee implication is that a woman is raped because she asked for it and that is wrong. In fact this "Uncontrollable male urge" defence has been successfully used to defend men again charges or rape.



My point regarding burkas is valid. If all women covered up there would still be rape.

originally posted by: Tiger5
a reply to: Bluesma

As a parent of three girls of course I had to tell them some home truths like "Stop showing so much thigh on the way to school". "Don't trust men!!!". There are very dangerous people out there and people should take reasonable care out there. However thee implication is that a woman is raped because she asked for it and that is wrong. In fact this "Uncontrollable male urge" defence has been successfully used to defend men again charges or rape.

Personally, I didn't choose to say to mine "Don't trust men". It doesn't feel accurate to me - some men can absolutely be trusted. I told her, "there are some people, of both gender, that should not be trusted to have normal and respectful responses to others (for various reasons). Be highly aware of that and use discernment at all times."

The argument being used in this discussion, that any mention of being careful and discerning is relieving rapists of fault is just a reducto ad absurdum (appeal to extremes).

My point regarding burkas is valid. If all women covered up there would still be rape.

Absolutely. I agree. Especially since I feel it is our extreme morals concerning sex being bad that is partly the source for perversions of this sort. Also, I highly suspect that the french idea of mystery as more exciting than exposure, might be more general to human beings...
The message of what is expressive of sexual expression and arousal in dress is not only different according to environment and culture, but mixed in with body signals in movement (it's not all about what you wear, but what you do with it - hence examples of certain behaviors in certain contexts).

originally posted by: Bluesma
I was raped at five years old.

What were you wearing when you were attacked? Were you dancing or behaving in a way that could have been construed by your attacker as "provocative"? Could your attacker have perceived your actions as consent to rape?

originally posted by: Bluesma
I made a conscious decision at some point to stop holding onto victimization as a definition of who I am. I got to see firsthand, experiencially, the benefits of such a chnge of mind, so I can speak about that. When she asks, "Why decide to stop calling oneself victim? What is the interest in that?" - I am in the right position to answer Why.

You may have made a conscious decision but, from your posts, I get the impression that you are closed off from your emotions and in need of external validation in order to affirm that your outwardly perceived behaviour is normal. I find your posts to display an intense and deep seated insecurity. Having now heard from you that you were raped as a child, I suspect that far from putting victimhood behind you, you are in denial about and unable to access your true feelings for fear of what will happen if you actually let go.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I did not tell her she must, I explained to her why some people decide instead "I was once a victim, in a specific event in the past. I am not a victim right now." She asked why, on a public forum.

I never said anything about her NOT being an eloquent and intelligent person, that has nothing to do with anything I said. (stop trying to put words in my mouth to paint me as a villain)

No, I just think that you are a better example of what not to do.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I never said anything about her NOT being an eloquent and intelligent person,

I never said you did, I was expressing my opinion of how she comes across on the boards to me.

I was not accusing you of anything.

Really, not everything is about you, you know?

a reply to: KyoZero
I think your missing the point. We should classify rape into two categories, the real ones, and the joke ones. Most of the second seems to be females who are so twisted in there mentality and have the communications skills somewhere between a cabbage and a bag of rocks, that for whatever reason even there reverse reverse psychology is reverse.

And off course the real ones, as in the real situations of rape, and yes in certain situations how you dress will invite unwanted attention. Even in the video I posted like I said mind your surrounding, I was not talking about her jogging clothes. That's just silly, you and I know most now a days most guys wont even be bothered with that #. I would not even be bothered to turn my head, as its a waste of time. But I cant speak for others now can I?

What I was talking about that girl should have picked a better jogging route, one away from 8 feet height grasses and bushes and so many potential hiding spots were so many things can happen. In fact she would have been better off running in the middle of the city buck naked, or at least her survival rate would have skyrocketed because no potential rapist or murderer would act with so many potential eyes around.

You see what I am getting at? Unless you know the mind of a rapist and know were there going to be and who there going to attack and how, and when at what time and day. Your just arguing about clothes, may as well argues about the methods or drugs they use to achieve there ends, it would be more productive and less silly.

As you can see what this thread is about is peoples emotions and some bizarre points they want to bring across, some have succeeded in doing that, others have failed miserably and some in between. But in all there is a big difference between regretting a one night stand with some stranger or ex boyfriend and actual rape. One is just a personal matter of two dinguses who cant decide there minds, like a room full of teenagers on there first binge. While the other is serious and can and does lead to serious consequences even death, and not a pretty one at that.


This talking about clothes is pointless, more often when rape happens its about other things and what she was wearing is just kind of a cliff note, even if it is what at first attracted the rapist. It should stop, its beyond pointless actually. People can wear any clothes they want, and in certain situation, yes it may be a factor and can lead to things. There are so many factors involved in any thing that it becomes almost pointless arguing about it as a bland statement without pointing out details.

Its just that simple, this whole blaming the victim and women who whine about is all just balcony by those who can not more accurately express themselves or have a chip on there shoulder for whatever reason, or any number of things. What it is? Is besides the subject, and painting with a broad brush.

Its likely to lead to more stupid issues which could have been dealt with if people were more clearer to begin with. Well have you ever heard the saying...."Play stupid games! Win stupid prizes."

Which is why in truth you cant really come to any conclusion to such things. Context and case by case is key, they have systems put in place for such things. There have been rapes with both situations involved, both cases exist out of a myriad of likely hundreds of other things and situations. And in most rapists mind just so you know, sex and power are the same thing.

This is all fine...but what are we doing for prevention from the attacker's side? Because that in and of itself is a sign that we are still placing the burden on the victim. It's essentially saying that you, the victim, need to protect yourself.

No its saying that you, as in everybody needs to be aware and take measures to protect themselves least such things happen, because such things do happen, have happened, and will happen. They are only the victim because they did not heed or take such protective measures or were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, as its always the things you don't see coming and blindside you that mess you up. they were ignorant of the situation they were in, or even got themselves in and may have lived to regret it. Simple as that.

Its not about blame, its just humans being humans, miscommunication and were emotions are involved, are capable dance partners. They do so like to twirl in circles endlessly.

Thank you for sharing such a personal issue with us geezlouise to help us discuss issues that face our society today. Could it be that your brother was being a guy and mentioned his thoughts with the minimalist amount of words?

Before I make my case, I want to set a foundation to build upon.
One thing is sure and that is: males and females are wired differently. Science, novels, experiences and history agrees. The society today is also much different from societies before. Technology, information, globalisation, the amount of access to everything is also greater now than it was before. Now I haven't made my case yet but one may be wondering, how does this have anything to do with the topic of rape?

Here is my case.
First a perspective from the male point of view.
Men are proven over and over again to be visually. Whether it is their car which looks immaculate or a women who is beautiful they are proven to be visual.

From a womens perspective or point of view.
Women enjoy attention of being wanted. Nothing sexual though some it may be the case but generally speaking, women love to know or feel that they are wanted.

Now society today gives different advice on what it is to be a man or a women. Everyone is raised up a different way, in different environments, with different advice with different consequence from parents, society, culture or religion.

Men today are know to have a weakness towards pornography and masterbation. Women too but it's not like men.
And what is well known among women is their weakness towards the fashion. For some it's the latest, for others it's to look a certain way, whatever it is, fashion in it's whole scope is what I'm talking about.

Now you have these two worlds clashing with each other. Men are taught by porn on what women are like and want and women are taught by fashion on how to dress for certain reactions and attentions.

Note: no child is born with the desire to rape the oppersite sex. Society, movies, pornography and the pressing on the weaknesses of a mans/women's pleasure buttons lead them to become overtaken by the pleasures of their hearts making them give into making bad decisions. Now a rapist is someone who has lost control and has fallen into going full speed pleasing themselves no matter what.

Now the soulution to this problem should be a "prevention is better than cure" approach. Before someone jumps to my conclusions, let me explain my prevention approach beginning with a question. Is throwing someone in jail a prevention or a cure? Now some may say it's a prevention from the rapist doing any more harm but the actual reality is that the rapist has already committed the despicable crime. Which means the act is a cure process. Though hard this may be and most likely it'll never happen in society, we as a society need to stop young boys AND girls from heading down a path that leads them into being unable to control themselves in the first place. Repeat.. No child gets the thought, I want to be a rapist when I grow up. It's usually an external influence that makes him follow a path of unimmaginable atrocities.

Now for those who do not have the struggle of fighting with themselves against constantly thinking, desiring, wanting to fulfill you own pleasures no matter what... Help them who are struggling with such things in whatever way possible. Now how you define how you could help such people is up to you yet remember, most of them don't want to do it when the thought is FIRST planted in their mind. Yet as farming proves, with water, sunshine and nutrients that thought will eventually produce its evil fruits. While it's time, we need to do what we can to stop feeding it, watering it and giving it sunshine. It must be hacked down before it's too late.

A wise man said "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."If someone constantly thinks about sex sex sex dominating torturing and more sex, he'll eventually become such a person. I haven't lost hope in society yet so my thought is, help people think morally right, kind, pure and loving thoughts. How one should do it? A wise proverb says, "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend." We all have brains and access to so much information in our hands so use your brain to figure out what you yourself can do to help them before they make a monster out of themselves.

originally posted by: ZMarawa

Men today are know to have a weakness towards pornography and masterbation.

Nothing new there then!

Now you have these two worlds clashing with each other. Men are taught by porn on what women are like and want.

*Education* and growing up with *respect* for others,

something somewhat lacking and being thought 'uncool' in this day and age.

Society, movies, pornography and the pressing on the weaknesses of a mans/women's pleasure buttons lead them to become overtaken by the pleasures of their hearts making them give into making bad decisions. Now a rapist is someone who has lost control and has fallen into going full speed pleasing themselves no matter what.

Here I'd like to repeat .....

Education and respect from an early age.

Is throwing someone in jail a prevention or a cure? Now some may say it's a prevention from the rapist doing any more harm but the actual reality is that the rapist has already committed the despicable crime.

Its vindication for the victim ..... and a time for the rapist to reform and

reflect in his crime.

we as a society need to stop young boys AND girls from heading down a path that leads them into being unable to control themselves in the first place.

At the risk of sounding repetitive .......

Education and respecting others and oneself.

Eletheia and ZMarawa

I think both of your are on the right track. Keith Edwards does a nice job of packaging the issue and looking at solutions.

There is no one or any simple solution to this problem. It is too complex and individualized for a one size fits all solution.

I second everything Anaana said there (and also thank you for the nice things said about me).

Bluesma, I am so sorry that you were raped at 5 yrs old.

That must have been so terrifying. And I am so sorry that you have had to carry that experience around with you for so long, without proper validation of the feelings and total affect that it had on you, and without having anyone there to truly validate and acknowledge that pain.



So sad.

It's really no wonder why you are the way you are now... constantly flailing your limbs and raising your voice and trying to be seen, heard, and acknowledged at any chance you get. It's really... awful.

I bet you'll tell me now that it's actually a blessing in disguise and it's ok because now you are stronger in whatever ways you've deluded yourself into believing that you're stronger, and I just have this last thing to say. You are lying to yourself and everyone here. You do not convince me that you are strong. You are just lying to yourself about it and have become accepting of poor conditions. I can't really blame you for it... so sad.

originally posted by: geezlouise

originally posted by: Bluesma
Some of that is relevant here in the part of the OP concerning considering oneself a victim, over a long period of time, after an event. "Victim" gets across through non-verbal communication.

I never mentioned anything about being a victim in the OP. The OP is about the misunderstanding that dress code can invite or prevent rape. But you've made it clear that you are un-sympathetic of people who are victims of crime. Un-sympathetic, and generally lacking a basic understanding of the underlying psychological impact that crime has.

Honestly bluesma I wasn't going to say anything to you but you really do think you have a lot to say, don't you? And I can't stop myself now that I'm on a roll so I'm going to have to give you the straight skinny. And here it is, this is what you are really saying with every novel length post you enter (and it's really not much at all):

You are jealous and angry that anyone else might gain pity or sympathy for being a victim of crime(maybe because you yourself was once a victim, but no one gave you sympathy for it). And you also come off being incredibly invalidated, and you're desperately trying to be heard and gain control and you put up this appearance of being strong and you give us all so many words but really you're small, and scared, and deep down inside you're just screaming for some acknowledgement.

And there it is, I acknowledge you.

Takes one to know one.

You go girl!

originally posted by: Anaana


What were you wearing when you were attacked? Were you dancing or behaving in a way that could have been construed by your attacker as "provocative"? Could your attacker have perceived your actions as consent to rape?

Since there is no such thing as consent to rape, the last question is completely irrational. That doesn't exist.

Now, let's recap. I am tired of answering the same question over and over, so I just went to back to all of my posts and copied :

Don't confuse your situation of being a child victim to others of different circumstance.
I understand it is a sensitive issue though, and hard not to equate your experience with those of others.

think I have seen a very wide array of situations labelled "rape" throughout my life, and I first pointed out very clearly that there are differences.

to the op- I will repeat what I said to you at the beginning- do not include yourself in such concerns. Your case was not of this type. That does not mean this type doesn't exist and should not be addressed.

Yes, there are many different situations and contexts in which rape occurs.

My case was not the most prevalent kind, (and hers wasn't either). Pedophiles are excited by different stimuli.
Let's look at the stats:

Source

No I did not do anything that might have stimulated a non pedophile. Either did she, I bet. I knew the person, it was my uncle.

You may have made a conscious decision but, from your posts, I get the impression that you are closed off from your emotions and in need of external validation in order to affirm that your outwardly perceived behavior is normal. I find your posts to display an intense and deep seated insecurity. Having now heard from you that you were raped as a child, I suspect that far from putting victimhood behind you, you are in denial about and unable to access your true feelings for fear of what will happen if you actually let go.

Well you are welcome to analyze as you wish. But I've spent most of my life going through shrinks and working on self knowledge. Who knows, maybe a layperson who has read a few posts on the internet might suddenly prove them all wrong!

What a professional might say is that I am seeing in her a state of being I have been in the past, and interacting with her as such. Because she asked "why stop being a victim??" I know the answer, I know the benefit. I've seen her talk about all this before, and I did not offer any input. If she is happy with her current state of mind, then there is no reason. If someone starts to wonder and ask.... that is when it is appropriate to offer some of your own experience.

I am not cut off from my emotions.

This is the thing that makes a big difference:

When you realize, OP, that while you are seeing yourself as a victim in each moment, the role of victim MUST have a tyrant or "victimizer" right?

So this is how witch hunts happen. This is how you become totally sure someone is "out to get you" or trying to hurt you... and you cry out to those in the vicinity, who would like to enjoy the role of "rescuer" the third important role in the play, and they join you in pointing fingers. If anyone peeps up about this , you accuse them of protecting a tyrant and threaten with guilt trips. You and your rescuer claim they said and did things they didn't, and rally forces together in the name of victimhood.

THis sounds like a horrible accusation, and yet it happens in complete innocence and ignorance! The victim REALLY believes they are victimized, they are not consciously faking anything. But in order to be a victim, in a constant way, as WHAT YOU ARE in all moments, this is necessary. There must be a bad guy.

Realizing you do this feel terrible- you don't want to hurt anyone, god no! Honestly! So it might be when you are really a full grown adult and strong enough to face really hard truths that you finally come out of denial, but in that moment, you will see- choosing to be a victim at all times is damaging to others. Delve too deeply into any extreme, and you come into the other extreme. Then you might decide to stop proclaiming yourself the everlasting victim.
Because you are a caring person, and don't want to do that to others anymore.

You are maybe too deep in your victimization right now to hear this. But I am betting that one day you will remember it.