My brother said... (about dress code and rape)

- and as for the problem of Power... I've written at length on that subject and I am with Nietzsche on that one. I think the Will to Power is inherent in all humans, whether they deny or not. From that point of view, I think it is more constructive to acknowledge it and use it wisely.

to the op- I will repeat what I said to you at the beginning- do not include yourself in such concerns. Your case was not of this type. That does not mean this type doesn't exist and should not be addressed.

Also, the problematic with calling yourself a victim for the rest of your life is that when you do that, you have created a persona of victimization that shall continue on. Not only in your head, but in your exchanges with others. Like I said, our body speaks without words, about itself. Continually saying to yourself "I am a victim" will keep communicating to others that you are in that role, and makes you a target.

It might be more constructive to think, "I was once victimized", instead. But I am a victim is a statement about what you are in relation to the world NOW. Be careful of falling into that trap. That is how you get some people that just seem to have terrible luck... man, one thing after another happens to them.

Or ignore that advice. But it is usually what people who want to reject the label upon are referring to.

a reply to: geezlouise

When i walk through the woods, i don't where a steak around my neck because i know that there are animals out there. If i did get attacked by an animal, would it be my fault? Or would you blame the bear?

No matter what you think you should be able to do safely, there are monsters and animals out there who will gladly prove you wrong.

The point is, that the world is not an ideal safe place for anyone. You should always be aware of that and your suroundings.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Restricted
Did I say that? No.

If you're half naked though, you're going to be treated like you're half naked.

The Original Post is about rape in relation to how women dress.

I don't think it's a shocker that people equate the two.

a reply to: geezlouise

When I first read your OP, I thought "everyone knows this." But I guess not. My bad.

Rape is a crime of power. It is forcing one's will on another. That anyone could make excuses for such is unconscionable. But we -- as a society -- seem to be increasingly devolving into the might-makes-right mindset, then blaming the victims for not being smart enough or strong enough or -- obviously -- just because they don't dress "properly." Folks on every side can point to someone or another trying to force their will on the rest of the society.

I guess the best we can do is pay attention when people tell us who they are. If someone will excuse forcing themselves sexually and physically onto another person, we have to assume they will force whatever on whoever they think they can get away with.

a reply to: Restricted

It would be a false equivocacy since most women are raped by someone they know. Manner of dress is not the major determining factor.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Restricted

It would be a false equivocacy since most women are raped by someone they know. Manner of dress is not the major determining factor.

I know the conventional wisdom. What I've posted is my personal opinion.

Women are nothing but meat to men. That, I know, is a fact.

originally posted by: Restricted
Women are nothing but meat to men. That, I know, is a fact.

Then the men you associate with are not the same men I associate with, including myself.

originally posted by: Restricted

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Restricted

It would be a false equivocacy since most women are raped by someone they know. Manner of dress is not the major determining factor.

I know the conventional wisdom. What I've posted is my personal opinion.

Women are nothing but meat to men. That, I know, is a fact.

I disagree. But most women being raped by someone they know is a fact - meaning the cases of children or women being jumped in a dark alley by a total stranger (though it happens) are not the majority, and all cases should not be assumed to be of this type.

originally posted by: Restricted

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Restricted

It would be a false equivocacy since most women are raped by someone they know. Manner of dress is not the major determining factor.

I know the conventional wisdom. What I've posted is my personal opinion.

Women are nothing but meat to men. That, I know, is a fact.

I'm so sorry and so pity you for feeling this way. Women are not meat to me. Never have been and never will be Let me tell you what I see and think when a gorgeous scantily clad woman crosses my path. I like to be realistic and honest

Woman walks by

I think in a rather primitive part of my brain "holy cow. She is gorgeous"

But then something weird happens....like REALLY weird

For some reason my next thought is, "moving on now" Strangely, against your scientifically researched opinion, I don't want to rape her. I know I must be some weird hybrid mutant male but yeah...no rape.

Or maybe, sarcasm aside, you can admit that YOUR opinion is that men think women are meat...

originally posted by: geezlouise


So, we shouldn't continue to breed shame about our bodies via a stricter dress code... because if you keep going in that direction you'll just end up in a burka. And people will still be getting assaulted. Because rape isn't bound to any particular dress code and can't be prevented via dress code. That is all that I'm saying now.

Our world culture breeds perversions.

I agree we shame, ignore, and disrespect our natural bodies from birth, because that is what is taught to us. However hormones play a huge roll in male aggression's due to the 5 to 10mg of testosterone produced everyday.

Some people have extra challenges in controlling their bodies once they start introducing other drugs, alcohol, chaos, or mind altering situations, so yes rape seems to be a mixture of hormones, and trying to control a situation of sexual encounters, in their life.

But ultimately the person/attackers is ultimately responsible for his/her actions.

As a society we seem to be absolutely disconnected from each others emotions, feeling and also disconnected from our own, so it leaves us with sociopathic tendencies as a society. Most people will not admit it, but in order to get beyond issues we need to admit it to ourselves.

Being disconnected may appear to protect our individual self, but if there is distortions in one's life it will most likely cause massive ripples in the pond of life.

In conclusion, if we had a better road-map, modus operandi, teachers, and self-awareness of actions from birth, then most likely our society would be much different in the ways we treat, respond, and interact with each other.

Peace and love to you.

a reply to: tigertatzen

It is an easily proven crime. Physical evidence can be obtained and verified. There is no denying it when forced penetration occurs. And there is no justification for it, regardless of what the victim was wearing at the time. Rape is an opportunistic crime. It is about controlling, subverting another human being. Fashion has nothing to do with it. Sex actually has nothing to do with it either.

I was not going to respond to this post because I didn't think I had anything to add that would make a difference. There is no one or simple explanation of rape. Every single case is different.

I only posted to comment on the highlighted portion of your post. While what is posted is a common belief by many, it is not true. These misconceptions are the most common reason that rape is so difficult to prove, why victims end up not being believed, and why so many rapist end up going free.

As a Forensic Nurse, collecting evidence is the second most important part of my job. The most important part of my job is assessing the patient for physical and or mental injuries, that may need to be addressed, and may require priority treatment before the collecting of evidence.

Though I try my best to be as thorough in my examination and assessment as possible, I can only present for evidence the information and the material that is available.

All rape is not violent, and all violent attacks are not rape. A visual examination of a male of female genitalia will not confirm or disprove that a rape has occurred. The absence of injury to the genitalia does not disprove a rape occurred. The absence of DNA does not prove that a rape did not occur.

The lack of physical evidence is very common in cases of rape. The average female body was designed for penetration, and for the delivery of new life into the world. What do you think you will see from a forced penetration, that will be different from penetration without force, or no penetration at all? Forced penetration can occur without there being any evidence of the crime.

I could go into all the scientific reasons for why this is true. I could go into the neurobiology of trauma, I could go into the details of evidence collection and why DNA could be present and missed, or how easily it could be destroyed or removed, or even collected but not processed, but that would take days and it would cause serious thread drift.

How and why rape occurs can only be explained by the rapist. It often only makes sense to the rapist. I thank God every day that my mind is not warped enough to be able to make sense out of the some of the stuff I have been exposed to.

I don't want to understand how a man can find a 3 "day" old infant sexually stimulating. How a snotty nosed 5 year old child is seen as erotic. I am trying to rest my mind and body before I go back on call tomorrow, after having to care for a 18 year old boy and a 64 year old woman on Christmas Eve. Neither was provocatively dressed, neither were asking for it.

We need to be better educated about this crime. We need to change our way of thinking, and we need to start believing people when they say they have been raped. There is nothing beautiful, glamorous, or fun about the experience of rape, or the reporting process. The process itself is so long, detailed and embarrassing for many, that they never complete it, but the process has to be so detailed, because proving rape is extremely important, but it is also extremely difficult.

You don't have to believe in evil to support a person being incarcerated for rape.
Incarceration if looked at as a way of protecting people , requires a different form of logic.

There was a boy I knew in my neighborhood and school. He was sixteen, and one day broke into a womans apartment and violently raped her.

He was mentally retarded, still in elementary school, and probably had the mental level of a nine year old.
He had also had a growth spurt which made him tall and huge. View the muscles he had, he was most likely flooded with testosterone.

He simply did not have the mental capacity to deal with those urges. He was arrested and put in prison.
A month earlier, he had snatched me up off the sidewalk and pulled me into a empty storage room. I was ten. I had on those heavy metal skates and was able to give him a well placed kick and escape.
But when I told adults about it, they said he probably just wanted to give me a hug (despite his huge hard on ). They told me I was not being nice in telling on someone so obviously not totally accountable.

My mom had to take that back when the event happened afterward... but there is no reason to determine who is evil or not... in my mind, that just complicates the whole question. Some will rape on purpose with clear intent, some are simply not capable of controlling their urges, for reasons that are beyond their power to overcome. They need to be incarcerated whether they meant to or not, because they are a danger to others, period.

It comes out the same in the end. No hate needed. Recognize and acknowledge not everyone is strong willed, sane, well meaning, and capable of intelligent decisions, and be aware. If you are a young female, maybe make sure to be with someone else when you are out at dusk. It is just plain common sense. It doesn't excuse or give such people the right to do this. But hell, just be aware. I cannot imagine what this boy would have done if a women purposely decided to be provocative in front of him just for fun.

It's just common sense.

a reply to: Edumakated

And what about those who get raped while wearing lots of clothes? I promise you there are no set of clothes in existence that should lead to rape. Anyone who disagrees lacks the self control necessary to be out in public without being a danger to others.

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: filthyphilanthropist

I would rather live in a world where we all get to walk around naked if we wanted to, knowing we are relatively safe doing it- than live in a world where we need to cover up and still fear being assaulted. That's my personal direction though. I'm tired of the shame of having a body and being human.

Fear and common sense are not the same thing. You would rather live in a world where you can walk around naked without the fear of being raped, but we don't live in that world. We live in this world, and in this world exists different kinds of rape. One of those kinds of rape is encouraged by the way people dress.

I would rather live in a world where I can leave my money laying out on the table and walk away without the concern of anyone stealing it, but I have to keep it on me at all times while away from safe places. It's common sense.

Firstly I want to thank everyone that contributed even though I can't respond to everyone I want you all to know that I read every word and it goes straight to the heart.

a reply to: mOjOm

I absolutely agree and I think that's largely my original point. Like, there's no location, dress code, age, or nationality that can keep you safe from rapey people. Rape isn't confined to any location and etc so it's different.

a reply to: Anaana

I agree with everything you're saying basically.

I do want to quickly point out that I love my brother and I respect his viewpoint. My family basically agrees with him which is probably why I've felt largely invalidated my entire life, lol. But I admit I've always gone a little against the grain and challenged ideas and beliefs and pushed for new ideas, new art, new beliefs. For a better understanding. And for the most part yeah I think people are lacking in understanding.

a reply to: Bluesma

What's wrong with being sexy? Or wearing a bikini? Or showing off cleavage? What's wrong with sex, between two consenting adults? Or a sexy dance? What's wrong with wanting to be beautiful and desireable?

Also I think the human body does not always have to be sexualized- but it seems like if you're even remotely attractive then even your armpits will be sexualized, which is the kind of attitude and opinion that you, my dear bluesma, are reinforcing. Which I disagree with whole-heatedly.

a reply to: tigertatzen

I love you and I'm so sorry you experienced it too. I can tell you were hurt, and were forced to come to terms with some uncomfortable truths about the world we live in that most people want to instinctively deny because it's just too painful. You "get it" and I'm sorry that you do. But I'm glad you're here for me and ATS.

"Sex actually has nothing to do with it, either." So true!

One of the issues with rape is the obsessive need people have to try and oversimplify it and find some blanket explanation for it. Not all rapes are the same, nor are they for the same reasons, nor are all the factors involved the same.

Rape isn't JUST about power. That's oversimplifying it and in doing so making understanding it and doing anything about it impossible.

a reply to: Bluesma

If you are a young female, maybe make sure to be with someone else when you are out at dusk.

Unfortunately, this is will not always work.

I have had far too many men and boys that have been victims of rape, it doesn't just happen to young females. Being in a group didn't help some of them. Way too many victims have been in groups, with people they trusted, and in situations where they thought they were safe. Most of these became victims because of bad choices, misplaced trust, or being drugged.

Common sense can help in preventing some rapes, but some rapes are not the result of bad judgment or even being in the wrong place at the wrong rime. It has nothing to do with age, gender, amount of clothing, or lack of clothing. Rape is the a crime that has to stopped at the source, with the rapist.

originally posted by: Anaana
a reply to: Bluesma

You seem to be completely incapable of stepping out of your gray little area and appreciating that there is a whole wide swathe of black and white.

I don't believe that sex is a commodity, therefore I don't believe in teaching those values to either sex. I presume that in your social circle sex is a commodity, since you think of it in terms of having and controlling that power. This may explain to you your feelings and experiences of what you believe to be rape, but as you point out, they are not, they are commodity trades. Nothing to do with rape. Outside of those kinds of socio-economic dynamics, rape is something quite different, which is not to say that rape does not occur in those socio-economic circles.

If se, isn't a commodity, then how do you explain the world wide phenomenon of prostitution and sex slavery? Why is it such a lucrative industry? Explain to me why men and women yearn for the love, affection, and pleasure that result from it. Why are there so many ritualistic pracrices for courtship across the entire world? Of course it is a comodity. Sex is both useful and valuable thing. No sex = no procreation. Sex provides intimacy - a deep connection with another. Intimacy is one of the most precious things in the world. Sex is beautiful and precious. It's value is almost unmatched in our world.

Just because you believe it is not a comodity doesn't make it any less of one. Should it be exploited? No. Instead, it should be cherished. Therefore, everyone in this thread agrees that rape is wrong. Rapists should be held responsible.

Now, you accuse bluesma of being stuck in the grey area while there is a whole array of black and white. From what I can tell, you seem to be projecting. Bluesma seems to be stuck in the whole color spectrum while you are stuck in black and white. You seem stuck in the "rape is bad. Clothes don't matter" mentality. Bluesma has greatly surpassed you intellectually by recognizing and agree with you that the rapist is at fault and we ought not blame the victim, and then she moved the discussion foreward by challenging the notion that everything is so cut and dry. She sought to evaluate the types of rape. She sought to figure out the variables of what creates a rapist. She sought to acknowledge the wicked games some girls will play because they know how the witch hunt goes. She sought to provide answers as to how one can minimize the risk of being raped under certain circumstances.

Not once did she even come close to victim shaming. Never did she try to blame the victim. She only acknowledge that women would be wise to take precautions because of the world we live in.

You : 'Short short good. Rape bad. Me Tarzan. You Jane.'

Bluesma : 'Rape is wrong. Now that we agree let's figure some things out. Maybe we can develop a better understanding of rape, false accusations, and determine the neccessary precautions to reduce the risk of being victimized.'

a reply to: Cinrad

I want you to know that I really appreciated this post. Thank you.

a reply to: Anaana

I too appreciate your interaction here so much. Once again I thank you.

a reply to: Humbaba

I think you're confused.

I understand that we do not live in a safe world, and I very much understand that achieving a safer environment takes time, and effort. And my point is that I am willing to spend my time and energy on going into that direction, instead of tolerating and accepting a toxic environment. I accept the truth that we are in danger and because of that I seek solutions and accept that our environment can change and get better.

a reply to: Bluesma

Thank you for sharing your views here.

I think that people who seek to retraumatize themselves are actually just trying to overcome that trauma and/or process it and understand it so that they can mentally overcome it... and so, people who are in that victim mode shouldn't be shamed for it as though it were a personal choice. It is not a personal choice. They were put there and now they're trapped and lost in the labyrinth and are just trying to find their way out again. Sometimes it's like they seek out familiar situations to even reinforce and validate that experience- because we all seem to want to deny that sometimes bad things happen and nothing good ever comes from it. So it's like people are just trying to convince themselves of something... in exposing themselves to it over and over again.

Anyway my point here is that it does seem like you're trying to shame and blame people for being a victim or for getting trapped in that victimhood place. You lack empathy. People do not go around wanting to be a victim... and if they are being the victim all the time, there's reasons for it. You are generally invalidating but that's ok, that's your right.

a reply to: KyoZero



a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

!!!!!!!!!

Love you and I'm so glad you did take the time to respond.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Bluesma

If you are a young female, maybe make sure to be with someone else when you are out at dusk.

Unfortunately, this is will not always work.

I have had far too many men and boys that have been victims of rape, it doesn't just happen to young females. Being in a group didn't help some of them. Way too many victims have been in groups, with people they trusted, and in situations where they thought they were safe. Most of these became victims because of bad choices, misplaced trust, or being drugged.

Common sense can help in preventing some rapes, but some rapes are not the result of bad judgment or even being in the wrong place at the wrong rime. It has nothing to do with age, gender, amount of clothing, or lack of clothing. Rape is the a crime that has to stopped at the source, with the rapist.

I will repeat what I have already said, many times, many ways.
Yes, there are many different situations and contexts in which rape occurs.
I have acknowledged - in some cases there is no possible way the person could have lessened their chances of being targetted.
In some others, there were things they could have done to make it less probable.

The ones in which nothing could be done - what more is there for us to discuss? The subject ends there.

For those which could have possibly been deterred, THEN there are things we can think of and discuss!

The fact that a rapist should be prosecuted is not up for question (never was)

The idea that all rapists are simply sadists who are completely in control of their actions and pre-meditatebased on non-sexual factors is a blanket statement which I think is not completely realistic. It is true in some cases, and not others.

You can try to teach a brain damaged person to control their body, but it is not always possible.
You can try to heal a mentally ill person, but it is not always possible.
You can try to educate a person who has become very confused and full of resentment concerning women for various reasons, that doesn't mean it will necessarily change their state.

It doesn't ultimately matter what the individual state of the rapist is, and whether they are "accountable" when it comes to being aware that such individuals exist and in some cases, it might be wise not to attract and tease them.

There is nothing wrong with nudity, with sexuality, OP. There are places you can walk around naked - we go to nude beaches and camping sites. These places are set up to protect you from danger when you do so.

I think that being seductive when you want sex is good, healthy, and sane. If you want to have sex with strangers, there are places for that too. I have been to such clubs and frankly, the people are MORE respectful than in normal open public clubs. They make it very hard for questionable people to get in, the rules are clear and there are security forces who watch for the slightest sign of disrespect and get them out.

And on that note, when it comes to the slightly dishonest claims of rape that happen, I partly blame the American idea of sex as being something bad, which causes people to feel mixed and ambiguous feelings. They get into conflicts with their morals and their natural drives, and try to choose the "good" side (and have it confirmed by the society) after the fact.
So no, I don't support more idiotic anti-sex BS. It is an antagonzing factor. I think, if you want sex with someone, show it honestly with your verbal and non-verbal communication. If you don't, show it honestly with your verbal and non-verbal communication!

Because not everyone is perfectly able to separate your "play" messages and "real ones".

For those that will attack anyway it makes no difference. But there's a bit of everything out there.