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My brother said... (about dress code and rape)

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posted on Dec, 26 2016 @ 11:35 PM
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a reply to: LordGoofus

I don't disagree- but where do we draw the line? Do you just bend over and adjust your own position and lives to accommodate criminal behavior?

I stopped going to school when I was raped in school. To eliminate that danger. So I understand.

And the reality is that if you have the power to take control of your own life... and if you have the power to manipulate the earth so that it produces crops for you, then the reality is that we have the power to move into a better direction where there will be less unsafe places.

Because while I may have been smart enough to stop going to the place where I was being assaulted, that place never should have been unsafe to begin with... or should it? Idk. Maybe I'm being too idealistic.

But in the same way that people "baby proof" their houses prior to a child entering the world? We should
constantly be "criminal proofing" our society and communities so that the people are discouraged from committing any crimes- and it's unfair in a way that good people have to completely rearrange their lives around because of some a$$holes. But that adjustment is a better direction to go into rather than putting on burkas which just accommodates criminal behavior. But I don't disagree, if a place has a bad reputation I wouldn't willingly put myself in danger. But I still think we could all work towards... baby proofing everywhere.

But maybe I'm being too hopeful.
edit on 26-12-2016 by geezlouise because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 01:17 AM
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a reply to: Justso

I can see why what I wrote was difficult to read. I should have waited to post anything until there was time to organize my thoughts and better articulate them.

Allow me to clarify the point because you clearly did not receive the message I intended to send - my fault.

First and foremost, rape is rape. The rapist is always 100% at fault, and real victims should never be blamed for the actions of the rapist. My entire post will be within the scope of this premise.

The context of my post is through the differentiation of types of rape. Forceful rape is motivated by physical dominance. Coercive rape is motivated by psychological dominance. Statutory rape is motivated by ephebophilia. Date rape is motivated by shear lust.

Predators typically choose their victims selectively. Many date rapists target women to whom they are attracted, and it's no secret that scantily clad women peak the sexual interest of men. Therefore, we can reason that how one dresses can easily draw the attention of a date rapist. It is common sense.

Should we shame the victim of rape? absolutely not. However, it is wise to acknowledge what catches a rapist's attention and take safety precautions against it.

Apart from rape, clothing really affects how one is viewed in general. We should encourage both men and women to dress modestly because modesty is a sign of classiness.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 01:28 AM
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a reply to: geezlouise
Saying that it's better to err on the safe side might sound too lame , too unimaginative or too uptight. Like the clothes one wear, we can also say as we please on certain occasions or situations, but we have to be open to the possibility of being misunderstood or receiving flak. The problem with the hard and fast rules, these rules of thumb is that they don't apply to everything.

Ladies wearing something provocative, revealing if they are feeling sexy, bold or want's to get noticed or to standout is they're decision when they are going to a club, music festival or a party if they can take the leering eyes, sly grins, cat calls and even the gropings which might happen... heck, all I'm saying is I hope all of you have maze in your bags like my eldest daughter... drops mic.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 01:48 AM
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originally posted by: geezlouise
that the problem with wearing short shorts and wearing revealing clothes is that there are rapists out there.


He's only half right but half wrong too.

The problem is that there are rapists out there. That's it.

Short shorts aren't a problem. Neither is revealing clothes.

The only problem is the rapists. One has nothing to do with the other.

If we got rid of all the short shorts in the world but left all the rapists we would have exactly the same problems. Only now we'd also have no short shorts too which would suck.

Only the rapists are the problem.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 02:01 AM
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Op's brother is in the wrong here. Her doctor does have a point. Many people miss the fact that rape is not about sex, it is about power. Do I agree with 12 year olds dressing like adult club goers or sex workers? Of course not, but it doesn't give a right for someone to act upon that child, considering the child is from a bad upbringing or what have you. Younger women with such upbringings, sometimes it's beyond them to know better and especially so if they have no guidance. Society should not perpetuate excuses for predators. That or you have a society that is rife with them.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 02:28 AM
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The rapist should absolutely be at fault for their behavior. Victim blaming doesn't fly. As others have pointed out in this thread discretion should be used. Perhaps you are a bit to idealistic. Truth is, there will always be some criminal elements to human societies and one should not be so naive.

Our society makes many strides in reducing crime and it's certainly better than say 300 years ago, or even 30 years ago. Yes sometimes justice comes slowly but it's important to allow for due process so that justice is indeed carried out. There are many cases of false rape accusation which, in my book is just has awful a crime as rape. How spiteful, selfish and sociopathic must one be to accuse someone of such a heinous crime knowing full well the consequences if they're actually convicted even though they are innocent?


Rape culture is absolutely not a thing. Men aren't running around constantly trying to hold down the urge to rape. As well, men get raped too and NOT just by other men. Even worse is there are hardly any ramifications for a false accusation. When a man is accused his name is plastered all over the place and his reputation shattered even if he's found innocent people are likely to harass him, assault him and not hire him. All the while the false accusers name isn't published and she's not punished. She is then free to falsely accuse again if she's so inclined for whatever reason and other men would have no idea her history and to steer clear of her.

When two adults have been drinking and hook up if the female regrets it, she can accuse the man of rape. Even if he was more plastered than her. For some reason it's assumed under the law that only men have the capacity for agency, it's pure BS. I know plenty of intelligent women who can make proper choices for themselves, they shouldn't be treated like children. I know plenty of dumb women that make poor choices too, doesn’t mean a man should take the fall for her bad decisions she as an adult made. We all make poor decisions it's part of being human, the important thing is to learn from them.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 02:38 AM
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I don't like lumping all cases into one generalization.

As pointed out, there are different kinds of situations - rape of children, attacks by strangers.... then there is date rape, for example. Or cases in which a girl might go to a party dressed extremely sexy, drunk and dancing seductively on the pool table...
I would never say the responsibility is out of the hands of the offender, but in some cases, I do think there is some truth to the idea that the female could have used some common sense as well.

The way you dress and make yourself appear speaks to others. It tells of what you feel like today, what you are looking for. Why dress extremely provocatively if you are NOT in the mood for sex?


This is a very simple question that men can't help asking. Why put out an image of your intents and emotions that is false?

When young men have dealt with girlfriends who have "tested" them in various ways "I tried to break up with you to see if you would react strongly against that idea", for example- they walk away with the idea that women sometimes say no when they mean yes; or that they do things specifically to provoke him to "be a man" and oppose her.

There are gray areas in rape accusations, that perhaps, legally, should be dealt with one way- but between us women, I think we need to talk about such things. Maybe we need to let our sisters know- playing such games with young men could radically confuse them and cause them to force sex on a girl later.

Sure, we can say our young men need to grow up learning self discipline, but does that mean females shouldn't? The girls should be totally free to do whatever they feel in public, but it is only guys that need to learn some self discipline and respect for others?

Don't confuse your situation of being a child victim to others of different circumstance.
I understand it is a sensitive issue though, and hard not to equate your experience with those of others.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 03:05 AM
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originally posted by: Bluesma
The way you dress and make yourself appear speaks to others. It tells of what you feel like today, what you are looking for. Why dress extremely provocatively if you are NOT in the mood for sex?


Because it is fashionable to do so?


originally posted by: Bluesma
This is a very simple question that men can't help asking. Why put out an image of your intents and emotions that is false?


It would depend upon the man, but I believe most men, assuming no mental defects, know that how a woman is dressed does not constitute consent.

You may express your consent through your mode of dress, but most young girls are just following fashion and trying to be attractive to whoever they want to be attractive to, or otherwise expressing themselves, or their desire to belong. Inviting attention is not consent to have sex.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 03:21 AM
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originally posted by: geezlouise
But in the same way that people "baby proof" their houses prior to a child entering the world?


Good friends are how we make each other attack proof. Or trustworthy people in general. And there are lots to be found of both sort. Good friends do not leave you alone when you are too drunk to think straight. They don't let you walk home on your own when you shouldn't. Girls can be girls and have fun, celebrate their physicality, display what they want to their hearts content if they look out for each other.

Good men do not think like your brother, and if I was you, I'd straighten him out sharpish.


edit on 27-12-2016 by Anaana because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 03:23 AM
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originally posted by: Anaana

originally posted by: Bluesma
The way you dress and make yourself appear speaks to others. It tells of what you feel like today, what you are looking for. Why dress extremely provocatively if you are NOT in the mood for sex?


Because it is fashionable to do so?


originally posted by: Bluesma
This is a very simple question that men can't help asking. Why put out an image of your intents and emotions that is false?


It would depend upon the man, but I believe most men, assuming no mental defects, know that how a woman is dressed does not constitute consent.

You may express your consent through your mode of dress, but most young girls are just following fashion and trying to be attractive to whoever they want to be attractive to, or otherwise expressing themselves, or their desire to belong. Inviting attention is not consent to have sex.


This is what I mean though- perhaps us mothers could teach our daughters that choosing their communications to the world according to what is fashionable is not the best way to live your life?

Everything we do communicates something to others about ourselves. From the way we move to the way we dress. It is normal that young girls don't quite understand at first their power and they revel in the way they can impact others in their environment so strongly with so little effort!
It is a real high at first. Just like young men who discover their new testosterone pumped muscles can have a mighty impact upon others when they simply swing their fist, wow! Suddenly you are no longer a powerless kid!

I truly believe that just as we teach those boys to take their power seriously and learn not to abuse it,
I think we should teach our daughters also to take their power seriously and use it conscientiously.

I have discussed with many men their confusion about how women communicate non-verbally, versus verbally.
It is not rare for them to be confused! How often do women get upset when their partner doesn't "sense" what they needed or wanted, without being told explicitly?? "You should have just KNOWN... I shouldn't HAVE to tell you!"
-This, if done enough, makes for a man that tries to guess through the non-verbal expressions, what you want.

It doesn't seem fair to insist they read body language and subtle signs, then say those signs shouldn't be read.

I would be out of my mind with fury if my son did any such thing. On the other hand, I explained to my daughter and my sons that sometimes people of their age are inexperienced and send off the wrong signals or lack understanding of their own power. Because someone else may be weak and not good at using that power is not an excuse for you to take advantage of that. (on either side)



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 03:33 AM
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a reply to: Bluesma

I don't think that you understand the nature of rape if you are equating it with inter-personal relationships in general.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 03:50 AM
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originally posted by: Anaana
a reply to: Bluesma

I don't think that you understand the nature of rape if you are equating it with inter-personal relationships in general.
think I have seen a very wide array of situations labelled "rape" throughout my life, and I first pointed out very clearly that there are differences.

I KNEW personally a girl who decided to bring rape charges against a boy she was dating because she got pissed off at him for something. It was not rape, but she was able to make others believe that. This had a big impact on my view. It happens.
Blindly deciding that ALL females who claim rape are necessarily victims of rape is simply choosing a fallacy to believe.

I also was counselled once by a respected adult figure to bring charges of rape against a guy. Because he was an ex I hadn't seen for a long time and we ran into each other at a party, I drank too much and he ended up pulling me into bed. Because I had mumbled some "no... no... I don't want to... " in front of others, I could have on, I think.

But the truth inside of me, that I knew, was that I was conflicted inside. I did want to be with him and experience that affection again, but another part felt it was a bad idea and not appropriate, seeing our circumstances.

I had an inner conflict with myself, and HE should pay for that? I might have said no, but I was also sort of dragging myself along and giving off confusing signals.

I even admitted this to the person giving me this advice, and she just insisted on the appearences- I said the word no, so he should have backed off right then. He needs to be punished and learn about that.

I was disgusted. I couldn't disregard my responsibility. So I know this happens. THIS is what is being talked about when people want to touch on the subject of female responsibility. NOT children being attacked by pedophiles, not women being attacked in dark alleys by strangers....in fact making a blanket generalization of ALL rape accusations is actually demeaning and disrespectful to those people.

That is why I suggested she take such views as not applying to her case at all, and yet still having some value in others.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 03:54 AM
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a reply to: Bluesma

Again, you're drawing far too much from your own limited experience which is totally unrepresentative of rape. It is rape if it felt like rape. For those for whom it felt like rape, there is no quandary. Your experience did not. Many women have experiences like yours but it is not the same as you yourself have pointed out.
edit on 27-12-2016 by Anaana because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 04:19 AM
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a reply to: geezlouise

First off, I am sorry that you even know that pain at all. I too, am a survivor...and was subjected victim blaming as well. It is a horrid practice, and it is appalling that people still think that way.

It is also the number one reason that victims drop charges--or fail to bring them at all--against their attackers, and the number one reason why child molestation is still so prevalent today...especially if the abuser is a family member. It is possibly the most insidious form of of abuse itself, because it acknowledges that a wrong was done, but justifies it by blaming the victim.

And truly, though there are plenty of blatant cases of people "playing the victim" to get attention, considering rape to ever be one of them is preposterous. It is an easily proven crime. Physical evidence can be obtained and verified. There is no denying it when forced penetration occurs. And there is no justification for it, regardless of what the victim was wearing at the time. Rape is an opportunistic crime. It is about controlling, subverting another human being. Fashion has nothing to do with it. Sex actually has nothing to do with it either.

If someone has committed a crime against another person, the one it was done to is a victim. It doesn't have to be OK. It just is. If someone steals a nice car, should the owner be held responsible because he or she decided to purchase a nice vehicle rather than a beater? Of course not. So how in the hell does a crime like rape, which is a physical assault...not remotely on the scale of stealing a car, somehow become the fault of the victim simply because he or she happened to be wearing a certain type of attire? That is stunningly preposterous. Absolute madness.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 04:22 AM
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originally posted by: tigertatzen
And truly, though there are plenty of blatant cases of people "playing the victim" to get attention, considering rape to ever be one of them is preposterous. It is an easily proven crime. Physical evidence can be obtained and verified. There is no denying it when forced penetration occurs. And there is no justification for it, regardless of what the victim was wearing at the time. Rape is an opportunistic crime. It is about controlling, subverting another human being. Fashion has nothing to do with it. Sex actually has nothing to do with it either.


Very well put



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 04:25 AM
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originally posted by: Anaana
a reply to: Bluesma

Again, you're drawing far too much from your own limited experience which is totally unrepresentative of rape. It is rape if it felt like rape. For those for whom it felt like rape, there is no quandary. Your experience did not. Many women have experiences like yours but it is not the same as you yourself have pointed out.


So what you are saying is- we should all just assume all rapes are real rapes, and give the girls a free pass on whatever they want to claim?

Besides the cases of girls feeling conflicted and decided to take a side in mind during or after the event,
there is the cases of girls, like I said, who simply are really enjoying the impact their body has upon males.
Walking into a room full of males, and having them all drop their jaw and spill their drinks is awesome to a young person who has felt mostly young and powerless up until then. To wear sexy things, bat their eyelashes, and watch how their lose their ability to speak correctly- it is power.

But to do that on purpose to a room full of strange men is notan "inter-personal relationship" with all of them. (though unfortunately some will interpret it like that- she wants to have an impact on me, she must want an inter-personal relationship with me then).
It is just a self absorbed abuse of power, as they are discovering it.
A guy who finds he can suddenly scare the bejesus out of others because of his size and strength, he's abusing his newfound power in bullying. I guess there are some that say he should be allowed to explore that in that way.
I simply disagree. Boys should be taught to use it responsibly and with clear intent, as should girls.

The girl in my first example, who comes in like that, and ends up dancing on the pool table, twerking and rubbing against the drunk males around....they are not free of responsibility if they lose control. I pointed that out. But as other here have, girls would be better off be taught that not all young men have yet gained total control over their new physical force. It isn't realistic to think they can be played with like toys just to get high off that new power they have upon emotions.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 04:33 AM
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originally posted by: Bluesma
So what you are saying is- we should all just assume all rapes are real rapes, and give the girls a free pass on whatever they want to claim?


Where do I say anything of the sort? Do they not have a legal process where you come from?



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 04:37 AM
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Women should wear what they like. Women should challenge some male attitudes that curtail their liberties. Women should not be cowed by male attitudes, although appreciate that that is easier said than done.

Rape is unacceptable. Using the "... she was dressed for it" excuse is no longer accepted in most civilised courts.

Education and precedent is reducing misogyny in the West, including the US.

To the OP. Your brother is right, but also wrong. If he cares, then he should support your choice.



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 04:54 AM
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originally posted by: Anaana

originally posted by: Bluesma
So what you are saying is- we should all just assume all rapes are real rapes, and give the girls a free pass on whatever they want to claim?


Where do I say anything of the sort? Do they not have a legal process where you come from?


I come from California, and yes there are courts. And yes, they rely upon the facts that are visible and provable. Like that I said "no" that others could hear, would have put my ex behind bars- if I had followed the advice I was being given.

But then, I wonder why every social problem is immediately refered back to courts and legal action in a discussion???

Should all parents just stop discussing, analyzing and thinking about how they educate their children, because "the court will deal with it"? I'm not a judge, nor a lawyer... are you?
If so, then I get your focus upon giving up the whole question to the court.

But some of us here are parents. That means considering the future, and how to help these things not happen in the first place. Just tell the girls to do whatever they want, because if it happens, they can go to court and win.Sure there are guys out there who are stupid, retarded, confused, and sadistic- but go ahead and tease them. You'll come out a winner if they react. Okay, that's one way of handling it.

But I can't stop thinking- even if you go to court and win, does that really heal the pain? Knowing you won, you are officially a victim of someone else... does it make the nightmares and the physical reflexes of fear go away?


edit on 27-12-2016 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2016 @ 05:00 AM
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originally posted by: Edumakated
You dress like a hoe, you will get treated like one.

Im not saying that rape is ever justified, but if you go out in public looking like a two dollsr hooker, that is how you will be treated.


That could be called plying your trade....

The exchange of goods for cash?

Helping yourself is ..... theft with goods/rape with person




This goes in all walks of life. There is s reason for the saying "dress for success".


Only IF you are looking for success ..... not everyone is on the constant search

for success



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