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Cardinal Burke, conservatives theorize about 'heretical' pope...

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posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 01:43 AM
Cardinal Burke: A Pope who commits formal heresy ‘would cease, by that act, to be the Pope’

Cardinal Burke said he is not accusing Pope Francis of "heresy" by submitting the five dubia for him to answer. He also explained that if a pope were to "formally profess heresy he would cease, by that act, to be the Pope" and that there is a process within the Church for dealing with such a situation.

"The faithful and priests and bishops have the right to have these questions answered," he said of thedubia. "It was our duty as cardinals, when the Pope made it clear that he would not respond to them, to make them public so that the priests and the lay faithful who had these same doubts might know that their doubts are legitimate and that they deserve a response."

It "could happen" that a pope would formally profess heresy, but "I hope we won’t be witnessing that at any time soon," Burke told Catholic World Report (CWR). 

Canon law tradition says a pope who commits formal heresy ceases to be pope: expert.

According to Peters, who holds the Edmund Cdl. Szoka Chair at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, canonical tradition has dealt with the possibility of a pope falling into personal heresy and promoting such heresy publicly and what should be done if this happens.

Peters notes that while it is true that, as Canon 1404 states, “The First See is judged by no one,” thus making it impossible for anyone to remove an erring pope from his office, this does not mean that a pope in error retains his office.

That statement is not the first one of cardinal Burke, an opponent of the reform of pope Francis who saw himself as retired conservative in the process. Indeed the cardinal himself doesn't accuse Francis of heresy, not yet. However, that is practically done by ultra conservative groupings within the Catholic church who believe they hold the authentic belief unlike the modern majority.

Recently another cardinal Sarah, originally from Africa, prefect of the office of liturgy, went on to propose going back to pre- Vatican II council reform in mass. His suggestion All the roman catholic priests to revert back to the old style mass, starting this Christmas, were directly confronted by pope Francis. The old mass is permitted, he said, but as an exception not the rule.

Apart of liturgical discussion, the current statement of cardinal Burke, ex-prefect in Vatican office and leading conservative opposing the reform, could lead to standoff between reformists and traditionalists right after Christmas celebrations that end on January 6.

The trouble maker questions vary in large spectrum, from giving communion to divorced and remarried heterosexual couples, to admitting the homosexual persons, to issues like should the pope speak on global warming agenda etc. Therefore, the latest spark by card Burke is likely to ignite a bigger fire within the billion plus wide church. The biggest religious organisation on earth finds itself overstretched between rich and poor countries and their different needs, phenomena like mass immigration to traditionally catholic countries such as Italy, gay marriage civil laws in traditionally catholic countries like Ireland and Spain, etc.

Do you think the reform of pope Francis, 80, will succeed and at what price and time frame? Do you think the pope is always right when speaking of so different issues like Climate change, migration waves, family planning, and gay people? Do you think the Roman Catholic church should remain in the current status quo or it should update its doctrine to some degree, and what should that degree be in practice?
edit on 22-12-2016 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 03:54 AM
a reply to: 2012newstart

I have no respect for the office of the Pope, since all the office really amounts to, is the head of an organisation that puts itself between the people and Christ. Yet Christ said "None come to the father, but through me", not "through me and my perpetual army of flawed, petty mortals with delusions of minor divinity". Therefore I view the entire clergy, on all sides, with deep suspicion. Christs very word makes them unnecessary to a faithful person. The word, and Christ himself are all one needs. The supervision of (often deeply morally and spiritually detestable) ones faith by an overseer, appointed by a human hierarchical structure? No time for that at all I am afraid.

However, all of that being said, Francis is the first Pope I have read of, leave alone lived during the Papacy of, who actually appears to be an ACTUAL Christian. He is not prone to judging the lost, does not cast stones, preaches peace, is heavy with compassion and light on wrath. He is every bit a Christian by his word and deed, which is something sorely lacking in many members of the heights of the Catholic Church, more interested are they in their dogma than in the faith itself, or the living word of Christ.

I like the man. He is trying to persuade the flock in general, to understand the word and deeds of Christ in context, to be the best they can be, to do the best they can for those around them, and to spread the love of Christ, not the wrath of man. What more noble cause is there than that?

posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 08:29 AM
a reply to: 2012newstart

the actual letter, its awfully wordy.

posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 11:52 AM
a reply to: NobodiesNormal

Pope responds in his Christmas message to Curia, warning some clergy motivated by the devil...Burke present at the speech
The Pope, who was elected with a mandate for reforming the Vatican, talked about a “hidden resistance” to change which comes from “hardened hearts content with empty rhetoric of a complacent spiritual reform” and a malicious resistance inspired by the devil and dressed up as tradition, accusation and self-justification. 

Francis has lambasted the “diseases” of the Curia in previous speeches at this time of year and after delivering this one gave his collaborators a Christmas present: a book written by a Jesuit, Claudio Acquaviva, titled “Curing the Illnesses of the Soul”.  

Among those listening to Francis’ address inside the Vatican today was Cardinal Raymond Burke, who has threatened to make a formal “act of correction” to the Pope’s modernising plans on giving Communion to the divorced and remarried. After the Pope finished speaking the cardinal was seen briefly greeting Francis and taking his copy of Aquaviva’s book.  

In his speech today the Pope called for more lay people, particularly women, to be given roles in the Church’s central administration, an organisation where all the top jobs are currently held by ordained men. He also wants people representing the global Church to have roles in Rome to better reflect the universal nature of Catholicism. 

edit on 22-12-2016 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 12:00 PM
a reply to: TrueBrit

Hope Francis will have boldness, time and support for all that? What we see at the moment is lack of widespread support. Not just at the level of top cardinals but also on the level of common bishops and priests who could've voiced stronger support to the long delayed reforms. The clock is ticking, not only because of his advanced age. German bishops warned, better do the reform while Francis is pope, it is not for granted the next one will be as much willing to do so.

What the non Catholics hardly understand is, today's catholic church is everything but dictatorship. If a hundred years ago the pope could do almost everything now the voice of advisers and opponents may be as strong as to practically block any substantial reform. Exactly what we see happening for those 4 years after his election.

Hope the reforms will be a done fact by the 100th anniversary of Fatima (may-oct 2017), a milestone in recent church histiry.
edit on 22-12-2016 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 15 2017 @ 04:34 AM
a reply to: 2012newstart

The row bet ween cardinal Burke and pope Francis took a new level by involving the scandal with the order of Malta. I will not retell all the story that is posted online
Apparently the controversies between the souvereign order of Malta, and the souvereign Holy See that supervises all orders including that of Malta, did not start with the condom scandal and will not end with the firing of the grand chancellor.

What is interesting for me, as outside observer, is the grouping of opponents of Francis, such as Burke, having one well organised and pursued common goal, however different otherwise they might be. That is, to stop any reforms. Will they succeed?

Seems the majority of 1 bln faithful leaded by the majority of priesthood do not support that ultra conservative course set to bring back pre- Vatican II status quo ante. Still, the very powerful structures and personages could do a big enough stirr. Will they reach to the point to openly "correct" pope Francis?

The CDF prefect card. Mueller who supervises dogmatic issues, supported the pope recently, saying nothing endangers the faith from the controversial encyclical Amoris Laetitia and therefore no Correction is needed.

If such occurs though, as card. Burke intended to make after Christmas season, shall we see the rise of a second power structure parallel to that of the Vatican? If so, it would enjoy much lesser support estimated in numbers followers, but those would be the most fundamental and zealous part of the Catholic church, those who make up the everyday masses and various lay groupings. Leaded by few but convinced in their righteousness hi clergy as cardinals Burke and Sarah who may think they keep intact Catholic faith breached by the reformers...

However, I think many conservative sincere Catholics will prefer to stay with the canonically elected pope, even if they do not agree everything.
edit on 15-1-2017 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)

posted on Jan, 30 2017 @ 05:53 AM
a reply to: 2012newstart

As far as I am concerned, no pope has entered office the last few centuries, without consent from the Knights of Malta AKA The Johanite Order.

posted on Feb, 6 2017 @ 01:36 PM
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
can you elaborate please?

For now, pope Francis reigns in the dissent order thru his special delegate, as his only representative until election of new grand master. That is, the role of cardinal Burke is eliminated.

If there is a punishment for Burke for his role in Malta scandal, we may see the conservatives in the Catholic Church separated even more.

Let not forget this year is the 100th anniversary of Fatima. Pope will be present there on May 13. Highly symbolic having in mind the official released text of the third secret.

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