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EC Voting Almost Over, Can We Talk About Russian Intervention Now?

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posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 12:19 AM
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The problem is that sort of binary blindness propensity I've mentioned elsewhere.

In my opinion the reality is, a lot more went into Trump's election than just the attempts - however successful or unsuccessful - by Russia to influence our political process. But attempt to influence they did. Both are true. The two are not mutually exclusive, and only the cognitive dissonance of "Russia is the only reason Clinton lost!" vs "Clinton is wholly evil and Trump is a hero who will save our nation and Russia are our friends!" would dictate that we think they are contradictory.

Many ingredients played into Trump's victory.

The failure of the DNC to respond to a rising populism or take it seriously; their equal failure to cop to their own culpability in the erosion of the middle class and increasing impoverishment thereof, despite this being the most prosperous nation in the history of the world; the erosion of public confidence in the political establishment - regardless of party - that has been ongoing for decades, and finally reached critical mass; the disturbing emergence of misanthropy as perfectly acceptable evidently to many, even in political discourse, which ideally should always be civil; a burgeoning wave of populism, both on the left and right, which since the left failed to capitalize on it, and traditional conservatism failed to grok, left only the alt-right for a desperate and hurting rust belt to turn to.

The essentially admitted, documented, avowed sandbagging of a candidate who actually stood a chance against Trump by the DNC establishment, in collusion with their nominee; the corporatist nature of many in the political establishment on both sides of the isle no longer being something only the fringe conspiracy theorists perceive; the decline in public civil awareness, and the rise of civil ignorance with regard to our government and how it functions (e.g. as Justice Souter opined, "people do not know who to blame" anymore) and with that distrust of authorities (including scientific authorities) an increased reliance by the public on memes and social media for news; the many perceived threats (ranging from very real, to exaggerated) that many felt neither party's establishment had answers for; and the rise of this "friendlier" neo-authoritarianism or populist authoritarianism - whichever you'd like to call it - throughout Western Civilization, as if by outgrowth from trollish meme culture almost overnight; all equally pertinent among them.

But the thing is... all of that can be true while at the same time Russia absolutely, positively has tried, is trying, and will try to influence our political process in any way they can. Of course they do. Is there any reason to think otherwise? There was an opportunity, and they sought to exploit it. What's shocking to me is not that they do. That's just how the game is being played, and if anyone honestly, truly believes Russia doesn't or didn't do this (just as we have, and do) ... I'm not sure what to say. What's shocking to me is that we've slid so far in terms of even the pretense of morality or ethical compass on the world stage, that our own citizens now see Russia as somehow innocent as a dove in contrast. (Our current president acknowledging and then allowing to stand literal torture by the previous administration doesn't help, as one example.)

While I see no reason for Russia and the U.S. or Europe to be perpetual adversaries, and would very much love for the opposite to be true... Vladimir Putin governs over an oligarchy (not unlike the emerging oligarchy right here in the U.S. Sanders always talks about... which is really just the Military Industrial Complex we were warned about ages ago,) and is a former KGB agent who regards the collapse of the USSR as the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of modern times. He has very deftly risen to power and hung on to it with equal skill and intrigue, and is, sadly, at least in my view, not a friend to liberty. Granted, in my opinion neither are the corporatists in either of our political parties, and while I do believe Russia has sought to influence our political process... I also don't trust the CIA or FBI as far as I could throw them. So reading between the lines is required.

Therein lies part of the problem, though. No one knows who to trust anymore, and no one wants to read between said lines - not in a world that demands 140 characters or less... so people have started trusting absolutely anything and anyone that seems "non-establishment." Even if that means Russia. At least it's not "the liberals," or "the New World Order," or (insert title.) Just as those on the other side don't care about the underlying reasons WHY Trump won, they only know they think it's a terrifying disaster and that absolutely anyone would be better in their eyes.

Whether on balance and after careful analysis and consideration, that's warranted or not. Because no one wants balance or careful analysis and consideration. People want what is salient, what is compelling, and what stirs emotion in their gut. This is true on both the left and the right.

Everyone automatically assumes if you suspect Russia has sought to influence our political process, you must be a Clinton supporter and believe the only reason she lost were Russian machinations. This isn't true of me - on the contrary, I believe the DNC lost this election far more than it was lost because of Russia, though I do believe they had some influence or sought to. Likewise, if you say the DNC lost the election and failed to respond to the demands of the people and are responsible for much of what ills this country - and helped Trump win - you are assumed to be a Trump supporter or part of the alt-right. This is likewise not true of me. On the contrary, Trump - or at least what I fear he represents, not personally, but in terms of underlying social dynamics and what they could portend throughout Western civilization in the long term - frankly terrifies me, despite my willingness to TRY to give him the benefit of the doubt until he actually does anything worth being concerned about.

But again, no one wants to hear that because it isn't black or white. All I can say is of a more personal nature: I hate none, and wish peace and hope for the future on all, irrespective of political or other persuasion. That's all I can say. That, and I hope people can try to remember that the enemy of your enemy (if they even are your enemy) is not always your friend. And that things are rarely as simple as a single defining factor, or moment.

Peace.




posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 01:04 AM
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a reply to: theantediluvian


Sigh...to be fair AD i like most of your posts elsewhere on the site, so please dont take this too personal, with my usage of the rhetorical " you"... but i legitimately can not wrap my head around this claim and conspiracy, especially since less than 4 months ago saying that trumps idea of Voter Fraud was laughable. www.factcheck.org...

How did they get past the NSA undetected?

How did they access machines that were not supposed to be connected to the internet or capable of communicating with other networks?

I am close friends with the people who run the polls in Columbia SC. Should i believe they are agents for Trump and Putin?


We're told that Russia hacked the election however we're not allowed to see any of the documents that actually prove it because "security", and then conveniently we are told even if russia did manage to "hack" an election ( BTW people: stop conflating "Hack" with "Crack", if russia did anything it was "cracking" ) nobody would be able to prove it anyway because apparently computers are magic and we are all too stupid to understand that russian IT specialists are basically Wizards.

So Did clinton win the popular vote or not? Why did you mock the last person who asked you this instead of answering with a quick fact based response? What is with the obsession with turning Republicans words against them, I.E. the whole "safe Space from safe spaces" meme and ironically calling them "triggered" Which is, well ironic since the people who said Trump was insane for suggesting fraud, refusing to accept results if he lost, are now suggesting Crypto-russians "hacked" the vote and brainwashed over 40% of the nation... Yet for some reason clinton won the popular vote.... with the aforementioned in mind, how did russia " hack" the election in trumps favor?

Because of e mail leaks between an unlikable candidate and her even more unlikable photoshopped supporters?

Why do i have to adopt a xenophobic attitude and a conspiratorial mindset towards russia, instead of accepting that the dems put forward a CATEGORICALLY UNLIKEABLE old white lady embroiled in an FBI investigation, and a blatantly padded and condescending media.

Why would russia take that risk ? Why would they "hack" the only nation that can nuke them back to Ancient Novgorod?


The NSA IS archiving nearly the entire internet, yet not the connections that we're going in and out from federal and state facilities, or state officials laptops and home servers; the places you would expect the NSA to be snooping....and electoral entities are all of a sudden less secure than a freaking Itunes or paypal account.


I'm sorry but in order to believe what you are saying and in order to believe what VP Pence is saying, I would have to accept that our government is criminally incompetent and is apparently storing their information on a wordpress server.



I mean.

It couldnt possibly be that you guys put forth a crappy candidate, could it?


Nah...that would make too much sense, and wouldn't require an anachronistic McCarthyist conspiracy theory about how a crappy person got elected.
edit on 22-12-2016 by DeathShield because: RUSSIA MADE ME DO IT.



posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 01:28 AM
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a reply to: theantediluvian




posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 02:16 AM
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a reply to: AceWombat04


I disagree on a few points. That said...
Extremely well reasoned. The whole " ZOMG RUSSIA
HACKED THE GIBSON." Or " OH GOD HILLARY IS ACTUALLY SATLER: THE HITLER OF SATANS", Narrative always comes from a painfully myopic stance.


Why cant it be that Hillary is awful, trump sucks but won fairly ? Cant it be that "Russian Hackers" got their hands on legitimate information AFTER it had been released to Wikileaks and given to them by ACTUAL americans in the DNC who are less KGB and more about stopping an even worse plutocratic monster?



posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 05:30 AM
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originally posted by: everyone
a reply to: theantediluvian





The left have completely shed their dignity, so brazen hypocrisy no longer holds them back.



posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 02:38 PM
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a reply to: theantediluvian

I agree, there should be an investigation based on some of the information you have posted in other threads. I truly hope the GOP do not bury their heads in the sand and act as if this is behavior is acceptable between sovereign states because it helped them into power. But part of the issue is the claim that this "hacked" the election. How plausible of a claim is this? Polls show HRC at 48.2% before the emails became public and then 48.0% on election day. The only other issue I would bring to the conversation is that the "hacks" weren't nefarious in the sense that they exposed top secret info or put people's lives in danger, they simply exposed the corruption with the DNC. Sometimes, companies/government uses a lot of discretion if they are hacked. They usually try to communicate with the hacker to help them close up a loophole, employ them, or sometimes even give them cash reward for exposing a weakness in their system. Russia has not been a friend of ours for a long time, but this could possibly be used as an olive branch to MAYBE mend diplomatic relations. Im not sure what the answer is, but I hope something positive comes from this election season.



posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 03:54 PM
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originally posted by: UKTruth
The left have completely shed their dignity, so brazen hypocrisy no longer holds them back.


Voting fraud is not the same as vote rigging.

Put simply, I see the words 'electronic voting fraud' and read 'electronic fraud that affects voting'.

But you see the words 'electronic voting fraud' and read 'fraud that affects electronic voting'.

Breaking into a website, email system, or any other online service is illegal and fraudulent (re: "electronic fraud" see the US Computer Fraud and Abuse Act), even more so when the system contains sensitive US classified information.

Between the DNC breakins, HRC/Podesta leaks, election system attacks, and the ShadowBroker NSA disclosures (ShadowBrokers: Message #5) it's hard to say there hasn't been rampant computer fraud during this election cycle.

No matter how you spin it this is electronic voting fraud, no getting around it.

en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 22-12-2016 by ThingsThatDontMakeSense because: links



posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 04:23 PM
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originally posted by: ThingsThatDontMakeSense

originally posted by: UKTruth
The left have completely shed their dignity, so brazen hypocrisy no longer holds them back.


Voting fraud is not the same as vote rigging.

Put simply, I see the words 'electronic voting fraud' and read 'electronic fraud that affects voting'.

But you see the words 'electronic voting fraud' and read 'fraud that affects electronic voting'.

Breaking into a website, email system, or any other online service is illegal and fraudulent (re: "electronic fraud" see the US Computer Fraud and Abuse Act), even more so when the system contains sensitive US classified information.

Between the DNC breakins, HRC/Podesta leaks, election system attacks, and the ShadowBroker NSA disclosures (ShadowBrokers: Message #5) it's hard to say there hasn't been rampant computer fraud during this election cycle.

No matter how you spin it this is electronic voting fraud, no getting around it.

en.wikipedia.org...


A fair enough point and i won't wholly disagree, but don't you think we are splitting hairs at this point? I mean, yeah, fraud and rigging can be reasonably considered separate entities, however they are both rooted in dishonesty and achieve the same goal. Plus, the google definition uses the word "fraud" to describe "rigging"

I know, definitions are not 100% solid, but it seems odd that you would try to divorce the two concepts. I'm not trying to rip on you, i am just genuinely perplexed.



posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 04:59 PM
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originally posted by: DeathShield
A fair enough point and i won't wholly disagree, but don't you think we are splitting hairs at this point? I mean, yeah, fraud and rigging can be reasonably considered separate entities, however they are both rooted in dishonesty and achieve the same goal. Plus, the google definition uses the word "fraud" to describe "rigging"

I know, definitions are not 100% solid, but it seems odd that you would try to divorce the two concepts. I'm not trying to rip on you, i am just genuinely perplexed.


The fact we agree that fraud and rigging can be seen as separate entities is enough to warrant a distinction in meanings. Otherwise we'd just talk past each other.


Fraud [frawd]
noun
1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds.
3. any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time.
4. a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.

www.dictionary.com...


Now let's unpack "electronic voting fraud"...

"Electronic" broadly means anything done through computer, telecommunications, or other forms of electromagnetic or digital conveyance.

Thus if we put the three words together we can now extract the following meaning:

"Electronic voting fraud is any event that uses computer, telecommunication or digital devices to convey information that aims to deceptively change the outcome of a vote -- either through modifying voter records, such as who can vote, or the vote itself; or that deceives or tricks people into thinking about a particular subject related to the vote causing either disenfranchisement or that's geared to manipulate a voter through incomplete or distorted inaccurate information."

I don't know of anyone who is saying the vote was directly electronically hacked by Russia modifying the votes themselves. So while there's overlap between 'fraud' and 'rigging,' the distinction is that the vote was manipulated by releasing information to steer the direction of the electorate.

The question in my mind is how many of the leaked documents were deleted or removed to create a false narrative? To what extent do people have any understanding of what it is they are reading (imagine reading Shakespeare's Othello by starting from the middle of the book)? How much of the US-Russia saber rattling was actually Russia trying to scare the US public into voting for a pro-Russia candidate (AFP (2016-10-10): Gorbachev warns of 'dangerous point' as US-Russia ties sour) ? These are all questions that really should be answered.

A bipartisan independent investigation into the claim Russia had any involvement would shine a light onto what happened.

edit on 22-12-2016 by ThingsThatDontMakeSense because: commas!



posted on Dec, 22 2016 @ 05:05 PM
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So how did that Russian election recount work out for ya's?What next the FBI,CIA and electors are all Russian agents?The entire left are exhibiting psychotic behavior.Im sure these loons with do something assinine to market the inauguration.I also hope those involved are punished severely.



posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 12:27 PM
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posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 12:27 PM
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posted on Dec, 29 2016 @ 10:00 PM
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