Women and equality

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Men went to war to fight for their women and children, not to abandon them.

You don't go away to defend your women and children, you stay and stand your ground. Women and children are abandoned for the purpose of conquering more property so that someone else can say they own it now!

That's right. And women and children can be handy to keep that property. No one that evil would do anything to them. And if they do well they are evil and I hope the women and children were taught how to recognize danger and run away.

Men may have fought for self rule from other men, but men didn't shed blood for women's right to vote. Women's rights are fought right here at home, in courts and through legislation. Bullets and bombs are rarely used.

That's true too. Unless you would say the Middle East and all wasn't about oil, or terrorists but love and the men and women thought everything was unfair in the Middle East and decided to intervene. Which btw isn't fair to have Russia and the US there against only one. Which is why they keep standing. But honestly I haven't figured out why for example that war happened in Iran, I still don't get why they are fighting over there.

But those men went away that is for sure and they left most of the women behind, plus they took women with them so things are different.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: windword

That's not what I said. I said the right to vote, the right to own property, and so on, was a war first fought by men.

Men went to war to fight for their women and children, not to abandon them.

Allright, but that means they also fought for everything else. They should be fighting for themselves ofcourse because if they are gone than women and children don't make any sense. So they fought for an idea, that of Good.

a reply to: johnnyjoe1979

many in the past fought because those men in power made them go and fight!!
ya know, draft, conscription??

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: johnnyjoe1979

many in the past fought because those men in power made them go and fight!!
ya know, draft, conscription??

Men and women in power made men go fight. Pharaoh, empresses, queens etc.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

there were more kings ruling than queens, emperors than empresses,
and most of the females that were ruling had to put up with the men around them pressuring them to give up that power by getting married. protestant leaders as well as the vatican were busy trying to undermine them, overthrow them, ect... heck it was probably those religious leaders that caused the aminousity between queen elizabeth and her cousin queen mary.

a reply to: dawnstar

They had to put up with men? It's tough being queen isn't it.

originally posted by: johnnyjoe1979

originally posted by: snowspirit
a reply to: johnnyjoe1979

And what responsibility has every woman forgotten about?
I've been responsible for lots of things through my life, you're being very vague.

I don't see too many responsible women in society.

Oh dear mate..i really hope you are very young. Otherwise, there is no defending such a dumb, baseless, false, ignorant comment.

I signed back on here to look at the further thoughts.

I find it interesting that this thread has been moved from "Social Issues" to "General Chit Chat".

Yeah. We don't want to piss off our Corporate Overlords nor the right wingers who this site now seems to cater too.

GAWD FORBID anyone does any ACTUAL THINKING or engages in any thoughtful discourse.

No, shove such things into the miscellaneous forums so people don't think to much about it.

I'm sure your advertisers don't want anyone questioning the Status Quo.

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: johnnyjoe1979

In my corporate experience, women still make less money than men even when in executive positions even in their capacity as "trainers" for the males.

Your company sucks and should get sued. it is illegal for people to discriminate based on gender, race, etc etc..been this way since the 60s

I expect lawsuits will be happening in the gender discriminatory policys of your company...surely...I mean, if you are saying they are paid less because of their gender, and there is evidence of this, then get the lawyers

Men and women will never be equal. Hear me out.

Physically we're different
Mentally we're different
Emotionally we're different

There are some things men are naturally better at ( most everything physical, fighting, anything involving conflict ). There are some things women are naturally better at ( nurturing, communication, running a household ).

3rd wave feminism and the various movements that have muddied the waters on relations between men and women, as well as helped break down the family unit have only made things worse.

Too many people don't understand the difference between equality and equal opportunity.

Keep letting "them" divide us and it only makes it easier for them to win.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

Too many people don't understand the difference between equality and equal opportunity.

I think the misunderstanding is that "equality" isn't "sameness". Men and women aren't the same, but IF they do the same job, they should be paid equally.

Not withstanding, some people can command more money based on their experience, connections, notoriety, etc., and can negotiate their salaries. But women shouldn't have to tolerate sexual exploitation to get or keep a job, like what was happening at Fox with Roger Ailes, for example. That demonstrates gender inequality in the work place.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: cynicalheathen

Too many people don't understand the difference between equality and equal opportunity.

I think the misunderstanding is that "equality" isn't "sameness". Men and women aren't the same, but IF they do the same job, they should be paid equally.

Not withstanding, some people can command more money based on their experience, connections, notoriety, etc., and can negotiate their salaries. But women shouldn't have to tolerate sexual exploitation to get or keep a job, like what was happening at Fox with Roger Ailes, for example. That demonstrates gender inequality in the work place.

You're absolutely right. People ought to be judged on their individual merit, not what equipment hangs between their legs.

The Roger Ailes situation merely demonstrates that Roger Ailes is a scumbag. Not that gender inequality is widespread.

I've seen women scream false sexual harassment and discrimination as a form of advancement when none exists. Is that not just as bad as real sexual harassment? It wrongly ruins a man's reputation and can harm him by loss of income.

Not making light of sexual harassment, but pointing out that it is a sword that cuts both ways.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

I used the sexual harassment example of a "woman of notoriety" that can command a high salary through negotiation, higher than many of her male peers, but she still had to deal with gender bias, in that her superior, Roger Ailes, thought he had the right to impose his sexual desires on her, and that attitude permeated his network. Of course sexual harassment goes both ways, and doesn't only happen to women.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Men also had to fight for "equality". The right to vote, the right to own property, and so on, was a war first fought by men. Maybe a little gratitude is in order.

Men have always fought for women, but the same cannot be said of women fighting for men.

Our modern human rights (such as the right to vote) have a common origin: the French Revolution. It's well known that women fought as hard and as much as men then, but when the first republic was created only men were given the right to vote. Women did ask for equality and demanded the same rights, but the Jacobins (all male) abolished all the female revolutionary groups and arrested/killed their leaders and women who opposed. So no, men have not always fought for women.

Physical strength is one of the reasons males have always dominated females, and that's still clear in certain regions (where women are raped and killed if they are not obedient). Women would also shut up to being a second class citizen just to make sure her children were provided for and were allowed to grow up with her (as we all know women were given rights over her children only at the end of 19th century, and only if they were deemed to be of 'good character' whilst males didn't have to prove anything). Religion also played a major role in women's oppression throughout history.

Luckily most men in secular developed countries have become better men, by appreciating the value women have and how much they can contribute to society.