Man arrested for using stun-gun on his 14 year old son

Originally posted by instar
I agree Ladyv, firm, loving and consistant disciplin are needed.

My youngest skipped school "once"....he got his butt spanked! I remember him telling me that if I spanked him.... he would call the police for abuse! I told him to go right ahead and when they got there they'd be on my side....he didn't skip school again. I had to be firm because I love them and I was alone....they couldn't think they could run over me cause I was a mom or they'd of ended up little mouthy brats in trouble all the time.

I have been discussing a shock collar with my daughter who is 15 and I think if I am reading the laws right I can do it as long as I do not leave marks. Any advise on this would be great if you have used these devises.

Originally posted by factfinder38
I have been discussing a shock collar with my daughter who is 15 and I think if I am reading the laws right I can do it as long as I do not leave marks. Any advise on this would be great if you have used these devises.

My advice is to test it extensivly on yourself for few months first, you want to make sure it works well right.

Sorry peeps, but your WRONG. First of all. This isnt little baby in the crib. He's 14. Not a mention of his size. The dad told them to stop. They wouldnt. You dont know how bad the fight was. If the 2 are rolling around the living room breaking stuff, the kid is beating the sht out of the other, your yellin to stop and its outta hand, what do you do? Talk to them nicely and explain that fighting is wrong? No. You take control of the situation. And if that make a zap, Im all for it.

Noone ever said beat em with hoses or cords. But if the cops can use it on GRADE school kids, why not a dad on his 14 year old.

Great grandpa---nice try, I saw that Keanu Reeves movie as well. Good try as your quote though...

My point: some kids are good natured, screw up only alittle here and there. Some kids are friggin aholes, and dont respond to the gentle talks to people suggest. Fear breeds respect. Kids need to be taught to fear the consequences, which, I feel they dont anymore. This kid wasnt only not afraid of what his dad would do, he as far as calling welfare on his dad.

The courts need to worry about keeping child molesters, and murderers locked up. When they can prove they can handle their own porblems, then, let them tell me how raise my family. Im sorry, but if my kid talks back to me ( not every time, mind you, but when it really counts) I am going to crack him in the mouth. Its my house, Im the boss. I feed them, clothe them and pay for everything they own. They are mine. The thing is, if you do this early enough, you dont have to do it alot. If your the weak, spineless type of parent, who buys the brat whatever they want to shut them up, then when they are teenagers, wonders what went wrong, its to late. Firm Fair and Consistant. Thats the key.

Do my kids hate me? Far from it. We get along good. Do they know what will happen if they F up? Oh ya. Theyve seen it first hand. They make a choice not to. Why? BEcause they know the consequences.

One thing yall might want to remember.

I have a 16 year old who at 14 was 6 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier than me. I could still kick his butt, BUT the gut might have HAD to use it to diffuse the situation.

Originally posted by Amuk
One thing yall might want to remember.

I have a 16 year old who at 14 was 6 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier than me. I could still kick his butt, BUT the gut might have HAD to use it to diffuse the situation.

What kills me, is the kid. He had to call welfare on his daddy. Well, whos he gonna call to make bail in 4 or 5 years? Welfare ???Me not thinks so. Oh, I hope daddy wins. I would love to be a fly on the wall in that house, after the trial. Ofcourse, the courts will offer him a plea, give him no time and order him into classes, and not to "abuse" his kids. This guy lost the last ounce of power he had in that house. God help my kids if they ever....

Originally posted by spliff4020
When she/I say "stop it!" and he replys, "what? Im just..." NO !! SLAP !!! right then and there. I didnt ask what you were doing. I told you to cease and desist. But noooooo, thats cruel, says mommie.

I do agree with many of the points you have made here. Having said that I would like to give you a personal piece of wisdom.

If your wife does not want you hitting her children, you have no right to. And if you persist in using physical punishment on her children when she doesn't agree, you may find yourself on the receiving end of a nasty divorce.

Don't get me wrong, I got more than my fair of smacks as a kid, and I probably deserved them. But if my step-father had ever so much as laid a hand on me, my mother would have kicked him out on his behind, first time, no exceptions. I was her child and if anyone was going to smack me, it was going to be her.

Originally posted by Duzey

Originally posted by spliff4020
When she/I say "stop it!" and he replys, "what? Im just..." NO !! SLAP !!! right then and there. I didnt ask what you were doing. I told you to cease and desist. But noooooo, thats cruel, says mommie.

I do agree with many of the points you have made here. Having said that I would like to give you a personal piece of wisdom.

If your wife does not want you hitting her children, you have no right to. And if you persist in using physical punishment on her children when she doesn't agree, you may find yourself on the receiving end of a nasty divorce.

Don't get me wrong, I got more than my fair of smacks as a kid, and I probably deserved them. But if my step-father had ever so much as laid a hand on me, my mother would have kicked him out on his behind, first time, no exceptions. I was her child and if anyone was going to smack me, it was going to be her.

I dont hit hers. That was areference to my own.

I have kids. Only one of whom has been spanked more than a handful of times. Not that I believe in astrology or anything, but he is a leo and a real handful, as well as a pleasure. He only needs about 5 hours of sleep a night(!), and is a boy-genius. Literally.

If I had a 14-year-old loose in my house who is outta control, one of my own or a friend of theirs, I'd probably call the cops. Basically, as someone who used to work in law enforcement, I'll tell you that whoever calls the government first usually wins.

So the kid gets an evening at juvenile hall. I'd show up (not to make bail) and tell him:

Look kid. you're getting too old for this. But you're also becoming a man. You are responsible for your actions. If you are gonna live in my house with me an mom, you're going to have to show some respect. You are old enough that I'm not asking too much. If you think I'm a monster or something, I guess your choices are either living with us, living with the state, or living on the street. Right now, I'll tell you that the last two choices pretty much guarantee that you be poor all your life, unemployable and probably the victim of all kinds of violence.

Now, I can't "Make" you do anything. I don't control your brain. But I do legally control my property. If you can behave, then you can come home. If you ever pull this crap again, I promise before God that I'll swear out a restraining order against you. I love you, I always will. But I am not about to let you destroy my life, the rest of our family, or my hard-earned property. I'll give you a moment alone, to make up your mind. . . .

As an aside, it's funny how a social worker has all kinds of authority of you, as long as she's on the clock. But legally, once she clocks out at the end of the day, she's just a citizen and not viewed as any smarter or wiser than the next taxpayer. So why does her being on the government clock magically transform her(or him) into a genius???? Are there "9-to-5" geniuses??

Originally posted by spliff4020
I dont hit hers. That was a reference to my own.

Good to know. Then I guess I pretty much agree with you. The only thing more effective on me than a good smack, was making my mother cry.

Once, when I was 14 I got arrested for shoplifting, bad me, never done it since. When the store asked me if they should call my mother or the police, I chose the police. They weren't as scary as her. Didn't think it through long enough because the police phoned her, but oh well, lesson learned.

[edit on 29-1-2005 by Duzey]

Originally posted by ben91069

I have a step son who behaves the same way. He is untrainable. He will not listen to anything other than what he believes sounds good to him. The only way to teach him is through long suffering, and unfortunately no one with any sense can take any action - less they go to jail. The sad part is, he will cross paths with someone with nothing to lose and perhaps be on the end of a gun or a knife because of his foolish ways.

I know where you are coming from, Ben. I have two stepsons. Both violent, one manipulative. One is eighteen so he's no longer a kid anyway, the other is fifteen. I've tried my normal tactic - treating them as mature adults in a civil manner - but it just doesn't work. The only thing to do is walk away.

I'm right there with you Pisky. I am on my and Frau Dr's. original one-&-only marriage, but most of our friends have "blended" families.

I think you always to train people how to treat you. Every response you have to them teaches them subconsciously what works and what doesn't. So you must train everyone in your life on how to treat you. Adults included.

For that to work though, you have to have some kind of ability to enforce consequences in their life for their bad behavior.

People would used to ask me what my definition of a "criminal mentality" is. Here's my short answer:

Criminals always mistake mercy for weakness.

Originally posted by Pisky
The only thing to do is walk away.

I dont play that in my own home. THEY can walk away..... or be carried away.

Three of my four are grown, two live out on their own and I treat their home with the same respect I demanded they treat mine

Originally posted by Amuk

I dont play that in my own home. THEY can walk away..... or be carried away.

Three of my four are grown, two live out on their own and I treat their home with the same respect I demanded they treat mine

Exactly, Amuk. The problem is that I'm living in my Mother-in-Law's house and they have had the run of it for so long they think it's theirs. Next month, when Kay and myself get our own place (as last !), things will be different. Until then theres little I can do.

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
Only mistake the guy made was not using a real gun. That would have got his attention.

People who bring their kids up properly dont need to shoot them because they know right from wrong! I havent been hit, shot, beaten with sticks by my parents but i know what is right and have respect for them.

For a father to have to shoot his son shows that someone had screwed up somewhere along the line.

IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO PROPERLY RAISE YOUR CHILDREN. I was only hit one time by my parents, and it was only necessary one time. You cannot wait until your kids are teenagers to do it though. I am sick of social workers and tv talk show hosts trying to tell American how to raise it's children. It doesn't take a damn village, all it takes is parents who love and care about what kind of people they are gonna be when they grow up.

Originally posted by instar Once grandparents were considered a valuble source of family wisdom, but now young parents shun the grands except if they want a sitter, they think they can "handle it" better than their parents did.
nuclear familys and single parent familys are missing out on so much. [edit on 083131p://36018 by instar]

Not always. If my father actually listened to my Grandmother, I'd have been the type of whore my a few of my cousins were (sleeping with men 2-3 times their age, family members, whatever by the age of 10, sometimes 15, latest, lol). Grandma can't hurt her kids or see them doing anything wrong. All are angels. The silly woman showed my cousin who ABUSES CHILDREN where we live (youngest bro was 7/8). You should have heard the argument my father and grandma had after that.

Also, each child is individual. You raise them as if all children are from the same mold, you break them. Some children you cannot spank because it will break their spirit. Other children, if you do not immediately squash their behavior, NOW, they will never live to see their adult years. Qualifications: Never birthed a child...helped raise my youngest brother....(quite literally...he's just now starting to treat me like I'm his sister and not an extra mommy... a little more than 10 years age diffrence)

Also, some parents DO bring this upon themselves in other ways. If you pressure your kids in whays that they can't bear and they snap, they do some crazy things.....

Early on, my father didn't understand that some people need to cry and if you take that from them, they become a bit unstable. Now here I am, at 23, almost 24 years of age, and I can't let go and cry. You have to literally put me through hell before I cry, and if you don't stay there and see it through, I quit crying, quit resonding at all really. My dads likes to pick. If I'm grumpy, I'm going to be a little...mean in speach, then we get into this 2 hour lecture with the threat of being kicked out the house....and a lot of other rather upseeting things....all of it triggering memories, times when I've just shut down, and all of this with the urge to tell him off, maybe beat the # out of him, and walk out of his life forever. This is something he screwed up on. Other things he didn't. In spite of being just enough screwed up to be able to complain, I'm rather well off for what he's done with me...and actually rather thankful. And I've been spanked. I've always known when he's meant business. At times, I defied him. Some kids are not the fault of their parents, lol...

Just be glad we aren't living under Old Mosaic law here, lol.... Kids get stoned to death for not honoring their parents.....and I don't think they put anage cap on that.

Oh, and at the age of 16, my dad picked up his father and pinned him against the wall, in the middle of roughhousing and asked him what he was going to do about it. Luckily, he was stubborn enough to keep himself relatively in line enough to have some physical respect for his parents, but they had not contorl over him since that age, whatsoever....lol, that wasn't the strongest my father got either.

Fear breeds respect. Kids need to be taught to fear the consequences, which, I feel they dont anymore.

You have it WRONG, twisted and F8cked up! NO child should ever fear their parents, ever! fear is not nessesary, clear understanding (education about)
consequences of poor choices, is.
Im betting your parents treated you the way you treat your kids/step kids Spliff.
As i said before, violence teaches violence, thats a fact, theres no getting arounding it. Kids learn by what you do, more than what you say. Kids raised with violence end up violent adults/violent parents and the cycle continues.
If you were brought up with violence and you cant get your thick skull around the idea of creative non violent disciplin, then your doing no better than your parents did, you do your kids disservice and eventually your grandkids, because your kids will learn your methods and raise your grandkids the same.
What [p's] me off is grandparents who flogged the crap out of their kids, made them fear, because they were too entrenched in fear based parenting by their own parents, then mellow as they age and interfere when they realise their own kids are treating the grandkids the same way.
You reap what you sow.
Many of you are waxing lyrical about out of control kids, but you dont question your own techniques/whatever that made them so. Instead you stubbornly stick to your fear/punishment agenda, despite it not working and even exabberating the problem. Then you have the gall to claim THEY cant learn???
No wonder its such a problem. On the other extreme are the hopeless "Flanders in the 60's" cases ("we just cant do it man"/disciplin)
who do follow the fruitloops on tv like dr phil and the like. What they fail to see is that technique alone is useless, unless your really communicating with your kids, not "physc speak" crap either, just "get real" understand the kids veiw and get the kid to understand yours, communication, then the DR phil crap wont wash.
Your kids need to trust you, trust your judgement, respect you, respect your judgement, and not just be your son/daughter but your freind aswell.
All kids hate and rebell against authority, the trick is to make sure that the authority comes from respect, not from fear of a belt, or stun gun. Too many parents seem to inherit the "I own my kids" mentality, expecting unconditional respect, but fostering none. These are the folk who still beleive you can get something for nothing.
How can I expect any respect from my kids, if I havent taught them with respect from the very start, and taught them right from wrong and whats expected without fear. I teach them respect and trust by giving them the opportunity to learn its value by example, rather than by threat of consequences. The earn my respect and trust in kind. if they make a poor choice, I show them (without violence) what the consequences of that choice are, my dissappointment is apparent, from this they learn.
If they make a good choice, I show I am pleased by extending my trust and respect. I tell them Im pleased and proud they have made the right choice and the consequences of that are positive in their favour.
In this way I foster that trust and mutual respect.
too many parents tell their kids how bad/wrong/stupid they are when they do wrong, but are very reluctant to praise positive behaviour/choices.
Its this positive reinforcement thats builds a strong bond with your kids, it builds on trust and respect, They do the right thing because they want your love, trust and respect, not because they fear what you will do to them if they dont.
This is My experience, not some mindf*ck crap I heard on Oprah.



[edit on 123131p://390112 by instar]

Originally posted by spliff4020
Fear breeds respect. Kids need to be taught to fear the consequences, which, I feel they dont anymore..

No....it doesn't work that way at all, or shouldn't anyway! There has to be respect. It also has to start in infancy. You can't spoil a child rotten, let them do whatever they want till they hit ten or eleven and then decide to lay down rules that have to be followed. It's also about example. Kids learn by example, you can't pull that stupid "do as I say not as I do" bs. Kids will learn what they live! Children are not naturally considerate.....things have to be taught, to be gentle with animals, not to make fun of those with problems or those with less than yourself, right from wrong! These things are part of parents responsibility

I agree with LadyV.

I also think different posters mean different things by different words and labels. "Respect" and "fear" can mean different things to different people.

I treat my kids with respect. In some ways, I treat them as small adults. Not in the realm of allowing them to make adult-level choices, but I understand that their feelings are legitimate, as intense as any adult's, and perhaps more so.

Here's a short list of our rules for spanking.

1. The child has gotten more than one warning already about that specific bad behavior.

2. The child is "given a chance to get it right," and yet still CHOOSES the dangerous/unacceptable path.

3. The child understands that they are getting a swat for a specific act, and not just cause Daddy has steam coming out his ears.

What merits a spanking? How about two of them getting together and sticking a nail in each hole of an electrical outlet, and then laying a pocket-knife across the nails? The "pop" melted the blade, and caused a bubble on its edge, which left the knife ueber-sharp. Basically, they invented electroplate steel!

Is fear bad in that scenario? Mommy told them they could die like bugs in a bug zapper, and they laughed at her. So. If they don't fear death, maybe they can be made to fear the paddle. . . .and the old man.

Don't misunderstand me. I don't want them afraid of "what will Daddy do next?" That's abuse. I don't want them wondering what my response will be. And, sure enough, they were confident, even CERTAIN that they could predict my behavior when I found out.

In other words, the HOW of discipline is less important than the fact that it be rock-steady. I believe kids can survive overly-strict parents, as well as over-lenient parents.

What makes children cruel is when the discipline is unpredictable. In that case, they grow up to believe that bad things are unavoidable, and that they cannot influence their own environment.

I give my kids choices. They may not like all, or even any, of the choices. But there is always a chance for you to avoid punishment; whether it is the paddle when you are young, or being grounded and losing allowance when you're older.

We have rules at my house. They are the same for everyone, all the time. And that includes mom and dad. Mommy has spanked daddy for throwing a football in the house, and hitting the antique china cabinet. (Boy did they love that; and she really HIT me, too!)