Brexit? What Brexit?

a reply to: ForteanOrg
Have you found an answer to the control-freak mentality of the European leadership? Because Brexit is as much about that as anything else. We did not fight Philip II, Louis XIV, Bonaparte, Kaiser Wilhelm, and Adolf Hitler, to succumb at last to a Jean-Claude Juncker.
When you hear the Albert Hall singing "Britons never, never, never, shall be slaves", you should take that as a clue to the real meaning of what happened in that referendum.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ForteanOrg
Have you found an answer to the control-freak mentality of the European leadership? Because Brexit is as much about that as anything else. We did not fight Philip II, Louis XIV, Bonaparte, Kaiser Wilhelm, and Adolf Hitler, to succumb at last to a Jean-Claude Juncker.
When you hear the Albert Hall singing "Britons never, never, never, shall be slaves", you should take that as a clue to the real meaning of what happened in that referendum.

Fear.

a reply to: ForteanOrg
Being afraid of something that is dangerous is not a bad thing, but common sense.
Turning "lack of fear" into a virtue when there are dangerous things around is just being stupid.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ForteanOrg
Being afraid of something that is dangerous is not a bad thing, but common sense.

I believe you're confusing 'danger' with 'unknown'. Both should not be treated with fear, but with caution and communication. Keep calm, carry on.

a reply to: ForteanOrg
But the control-freak mentality of the European leadership is not something which is unknown. We have experienced it, we have seen it in action.
The childish vindictiveness of their reaction to the Brexit referendum only serves to prove the point and vindicate the way the vote went.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
... 'unknown'...

Well, the EU is getting real good at that, isn't it?

Brussels bigwigs to make swathes of EU lawmaking SECRET from voters

Critics blasted MEPs for showing "contempt for the electorates of Europe" after they voted for the anti-democratic measure designed to hand more power to unelected bureaucrats.

During a sitting at the European Parliament today representatives rubber stamped what on the surface appears a dry technical report - but one which contains an "explosively dangerous" catch.

The Corbett Report - named after the British Labour MEP Richard Corbett who drafted it - will remove massive chunks of EU policy making from the public view.

Instead, many Brussels laws will now be decided behind closed doors in 'trilogue' talks, which take place between unelected officials at the EU Commission and European Parliament and a handful of elected MEPs.

Good luck with that.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Brexit is based on fear. Fear for other people, fear for immigrants, fear for Polish workers, black people, fear for losing "the control of our nation", fear, fear, fear. We, on the continent, have actually suffered from fascism. It may well be that the Brits still have that lesson to learn, I don't know. But I sure hope not, and this commercial is touching and gives me hope.

[snipped] maybe it didn't occur to you but we have dealt with fascism we had to take it down the last time the Germans tried for a united europe. Maybe you should ask your fascist leaders for a history book.

As for fear My fear was with the eu leaders and their continued lack of sense, total ignorance and no way we had any say in their decisions.

You can come back with "but the EU is here to stop european wars" or even "you are better off with us" but for me they are the ones poking the russian bear and as far as better of in the EU... give me some examples because all I see is pain and misery since the EU started.

And before you start with free trade... we can get cheaper and better items from outside the EU. The make us pay more for EU goods by imposing tarifs on countries outside the EU and paying subsidies to EU farmers to keep their prices up.

And woe be tied if you think the UK will lie down for anything other than complete withdrawal from your corrupt, insane dictatorship. It has been almost 400 years since our civil war but tensions are high so stop sneering at the lions.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
But the control-freak mentality of the European leadership is not something which is unknown. We have experienced it, we have seen it in action.
The childish vindictiveness of their reaction to the Brexit referendum only serves to prove the point and vindicate the way the vote went.

You know if the EU was such a successful venture, the members would

be loyal and eager to stay in.

The fact that they need to be vindictive and bully boyish only goes

to prove the ineffectness of the complete project .... Lets see what the

2017 elections bring!!

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Brexit is based on fear. Fear for other people, fear for immigrants, fear for Polish workers, black people, fear for losing "the control of our nation", fear, fear, fear.

I've yet to see this fear.

There are practical considerations. Population density, housing, sewers, roads etc. Seeing the overloaded sewage system approach failure and discussing the future of that sewage system is practical.

To see practical considerations described as 'fear' makes me wonder where the 'fear' idea has come from. Is it just fear-mongering?

a reply to: Kester

Yeah, 'fear' is just a silly emotional label to distract from reasoned considerations of leaving a political union.

By the OP's reasoning it is fear preventing people from outside the EU having access to the single market and free movement of people.
Why exactly does the EU control immigration from the rest of the world? Ah, that's right, it's sensible to control immigration based on need.

On a side note I still chuckle when I remember the OP saying we'd never vote leave prior to the referendum

a reply to: grainofsand

Well .. you're not out yet

originally posted by: eletheia
You know if the EU was such a successful venture, the members would be loyal and eager to stay in.

I believe we have 28 nations in our union, none of them were forced to enter the union, all of them WANTED to be part of the EU. The Brits actually BEGGED to get in. Alas, soon after entering everybody simply forgets how it was before they entered the union - it soon becomes very normal to have peace, free trade, free travel, a more and more uniform legal system. And then it is taken for granted, and later still it is seen as an achievement of the nation and it is assumed that what has been achieved hence will remain.

Well, dear friends, might you really leave you will soon learn that what the UK has achieved could only be achieved because they were part of the Union. If you had not entered the EU, you would probably continued the path you already were on - a path leading to poverty. You Brits soon forget the struggles your people had with your government, how "well" you were treated by them when they were the only masters you had.. bah, humbug..

But even now the majority of the Brits voted to leave, I don't think the British government shows much eagerness to LEAVE the Union, really. Probably because it would soon become painfully clear that nothing would change for the better and you would soon be back where you were before you entered the Union. Nobody wants to see that happen. So, they want to vote on it, the judges say they can, and so they will and vote - in.

Which, all in all, would be a good thing. I'd rather have you in than out, because - in all fairness - we all would benefit from it. However, if I had to choose: live in an isolated UK or live on a united continent, I would not have a moments doubt. It's the continent then.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Lol, I never said we were, I was just mocking your previous prediction.

Now why does the EU itself have external borders controlling immigration from the rest of the world?
Maybe because it is sensible for strategic planning?
Is the EU to be criticised for defending its border?

Nope, no fear from me just reasoned consideration of controlled immigration for EU citizens same as we do for the rest of the world.
Now defend those external borders of the EU...are they there because of fear as well or sensible planning?

a reply to: grainofsand

Actually, borders should not exist at all. In the end we will indeed laugh at the idea that there used to be "borders" on this tiny, tiny planet.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

It's your opinion of course.
I assume you also believe EU external borders to be based on fear then yes?
Is it not sensible to consider the practical challenges of mass movement of people from poor to affluent areas?

I would suggest that if the EU opened its borders it would be overwhelmed.
Do you disagree?

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
I believe we have 28 nations in our union, none of them were forced to enter the union, all of them WANTED to be part of the EU.

At least 24 of those nations are not economically healthy.... Greece is on its

knees Spain, Italy and Portugal are not too far behind. The euro is a failed

currency and project.

The Brits actually BEGGED to get in.

British PM Ted Heath didn't give the British people a referendum over joining the EU

because opinions polls in 1972 showed that the British people were hugely opposed

by a margin of 2 to 1 against joining the common market Instead Heath

merely signed the documents that took Britain into the EU on the basis that

Parliament alone had passed the European Communities Bill 1972.

He obviously held the same views as the current remainers who think the Brexiters

are *racist idiots* Well he paid the price for those views as he didn't stay PM for long.


www.vernoncoleman.com...

Alas, soon after entering everybody simply forgets how it was before they entered the union - it soon becomes very normal to have peace, free trade, free travel, a more and more uniform legal system. And then it is taken for granted, and later still it is seen as an achievement of the nation

and it is assumed that what has been achieved hence will remain.

What planet are you on? NOTHING is free when you don't have a choice!

I travelled freely before the EU .... and our legal system and civil services have

been copied by many countries.

Well, dear friends, might you really leave you will soon learn that what the UK has achieved could only be achieved because they were part of the Union. If you had not entered the EU, you would probably continued the path you already were on - a path leading to poverty. You Brits soon forget the struggles your people had with your government, how "well" you were treated by them when they were the only masters you had.. bah, humbug..

I have to repeat .... What planet are you on!!!!!

But even now the majority of the Brits voted to leave, I don't think the British government shows much eagerness to LEAVE the Union, really. Probably because it would soon become painfully clear that nothing would change for the better and you would soon be back where you were before you entered the Union. Nobody wants to see that happen. So, they want to vote on it, the judges say they can, and so they will and vote - in.

They who interfere with the *WILL OF THE PEOPLE* will do well to remember

what happened to Ted Heath.

Which, all in all, would be a good thing. I'd rather have you in than out, because - in all fairness - we all would benefit from it. However, if I had to choose: live in an isolated UK or live on a united continent, I would not have a moments doubt. It's the continent then.

The EU is falling apart..... just wait till the elections in 2017 it will all be down

hill for the EU after that.

Not to blow my own trumpet but against the odds I was right about

# the Scottish referendum

# the last British election

# the referendum

# and Donald Trump

The peasants are in rebellion

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
Well, dear friends, might you really leave you will soon learn that what the UK has achieved could only be achieved because they were part of the Union. If you had not entered the EU, you would probably continued the path you already were on - a path leading to poverty. You Brits soon forget the struggles your people had with your government, how "well" you were treated by them when they were the only masters you had.. bah, humbug..

After reading your post I came across this letter from yet another disenfranchised

Brit, put very succinctly, in the 'letters to the editor' type page of the Financial

Times ..... read it and weep!

Sir,
Your pages overflow with predictions of disasters brought on by the
Brexit/Trump axis.
Leaving aside the depressing and repetitive pointlessness of this mass
guess work and the underlying assumption - that things were better
when *People Like Us*were in charge - is at its best dubious, at worst
delusional.
Under *P L U* rule, we have two failed wars, and the Middle East in
flames, China expansionist, Europe enfeebled, America
ineffective and Russia resurgent.

At home we have banking crises, stagnant median incomes,
uncontrolled borders,record indebtedness, profiteering
by the "professional" classes, and general social polarisation.

This is the Utopia from which the rude and licentious electorates have
expelled us?

Face it .... We the FT readers had our decades in charge and we blew
it for everyone but us. Time for us to do what we've been telling the
rest of them to do for years - suck it up - or go forth and earn the
respect that regains power.

K.Craig.
London UK.

I think ^^^^^that^^^^^ really puts paid to your assumptive

post on the value of the EU?

ATS gremlins!!!!

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ForteanOrg
Have you found an answer to the control-freak mentality of the European leadership?

This made me laugh. As opposed to the control-freak mentality of Theresa May, you mean?

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
I believe we have 28 nations in our union, none of them were forced to enter the union, all of them WANTED to be part of the EU.

At least 24 of those nations are not economically healthy.... Greece is on its

knees Spain, Italy and Portugal are not too far behind. The euro is a failed

currency and project.

The Brits actually BEGGED to get in.

British PM Ted Heath didn't give the British people a referendum over joining the EU

because opinions polls in 1972 showed that the British people were hugely opposed

by a margin of 2 to 1 against joining the common market

The UK didn't join the common market. It didn't exist back then. The UK joined the European Economic Community, effectively the customs union plus the free movement of people and capital.