as I am not even getting anywhere I go into the door widely , I usually deny that thread closures are helpful as they end an unfinished debate in the quickest and close minded way I have come to distaste, but this is getting nowhere and most arent even getting answers for the arguements of a few, I concur the thread is dead lay it to rest.

This thread would have been fine without all the personal attacks. If a topic is raised, discuss it. If you agree with it, express it. If you disagree, express it. Period. Seems pretty simple to me. I learned a lot in this thread from many people which means the thread has been worthy and it there is no justification to close it except for the few control freaks that aren't getting their way. With them aside, it's been a fine debate!