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Why the Russia thing is absurd

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posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:09 PM
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a reply to: Puppylove

Except that this discussion DOES exist, IS important, and it should not be ignored. Besides, pointing out that everyone is a hypocrite is just stating the obvious. There is no conversation involved beyond, "Yep. I agree we are all hypocrites and in a perfect world all these things should be addressed". Yeah too bad the world isn't perfect and there are scales and levels for misbehaving. That goes the same for international behavior for countries. Thus we need to create a hierarchy of misdeeds so we know what should be tackled first and where the biggest international problems are coming from. Nuance is important and shouldn't be ignored. I know that is a popular position to take these days but it isn't smart. Pretending like everyone does it so we are all equally guilty is just shallow thinking.




posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:10 PM
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a reply to: olaru12

If they're at the point where they need to do that, they've failed horribly at their "jobs" as it means it's become a situation they can no longer contain internally and has gotten out of control.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:11 PM
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a reply to: Puppylove

You said it the way you meant it


That's all that counts.

edit on 13-12-2016 by PillarOfFire because: 2up



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:13 PM
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originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: olaru12

If they're at the point where they need to do that, they've failed horribly at their "jobs" as it means it's become a situation they can no longer contain internally and has gotten out of control.



Don't sell the 3 letters short. They too have agendas and plans and They have the methods to carry them out.

This isn't Mayberry RFD! More like Jason Bourne only real, very very real, believe me, really real!
edit on 13-12-2016 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:17 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm not advocating everyone does it so let's ignore it. I'm arguing everyone does it, so lets put a stop to it, full stop. Our governments are horribly corrupt the world over. I'm sick and tired of we the people just playing their stupid #ing games. The entire worlds misery is caused by a very small percent of people. We KNOW they do wrong, but we just let it go on.

All this is is one big cock fight. In this corner US in this corner Russia who will win? You're choosing to bet on the fight.

My war is with the assholes creating the cock fights in the first place while you want to help keep the game going strong.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:24 PM
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a reply to: Puppylove

Here's the thing. Corruption is a part of human behavior. Everyone wants the most for themselves. Sometimes that involves cutting corners and even breaking the law. Trying to battle corruption like it is this single minded entity is impossible. Corruption takes all forms and one person being corrupt doesn't mean he is allied with another person who is corrupt, which is what you seem to be implying.

Spying is another can of worms. We COULD stop spying but we'd have no assurances that other countries weren't spying unless we were spying on them. It's a Catch 22 where the current BEST practice of dealing with it is to just prosecute the people caught while trying to smooth over the diplomatic relations with the country in question so as to prevent a war. Again this is all nuance and very delicate work. It's not a simple solution of just "Lock up all the corrupt people and stop spying on everyone!".

This again cycles back to my point about Russia. Russia is heavily implicated in messing with an American institution. Our election. In days of yesteryear this would have been a SERIOUS offense that many Americans would have taken VERY personally; but right now it is common hat to try to either sweep it under the rug, pretend like the Russians didn't do it, or even pretend like what the Russians did was for the benefit of the American people so it can be excused. NONE of those things are true.

You brought up domestic surveillance earlier in the thread. Did you know that the NSA has lost its ability to use its spying program because of public outrage? Granted I'm not being naive here and trying to suggest that all domestic spying was ended when this was stopped, but it's not like things don't change for the better when people stand up and demand answers for them.
edit on 13-12-2016 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:27 PM
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originally posted by: Puppylove


My war is with the assholes creating the cock fights in the first place while you want to help keep the game going strong.



So we elect a lightweight, ego centric, businessman to come to our rescue. When politics and surrealism merge...it's time to GTFO, really, really, very, very, very, time.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:32 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Puppylove

Yeah that's why there are TONS of other countries that have recently annexed parts of other countries and then invented propaganda (which was later exposed in a hack) saying the country wanted that to happen right? Say what you want about the US' international campaigns, but at least the US leaves the country with its autonomy.

Leave them with their autonomy? That's precious, bless your heart. I bet Santa is real too.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:33 PM
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a reply to: StrizzMatik

So which countries that we recently invaded is the US still governing directly then?



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:35 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

The funny thing is I'm seeing a lot of people that claim the current Ukrainian government has no authority due to perceived US influence are also claiming that the US elections are 100% legit despite perceived Russian influence.

Personally I think both elections are legitimate. Yanukovych was as corrupt as they come and his people ousted him. Even if Russia is behind the DNC hacks it was still the will of the people reacting to the DNC's actions.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:37 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: StrizzMatik

So which countries that we recently invaded is the US still governing directly then?

Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Ukraine and soon to be Syria and Iran, unless you call those laughable excuses for puppet governments "autonomous". Not counting the influence we hold in countries like South Korea, where we have a permanent military presence.
edit on 13-12-2016 by StrizzMatik because: Added info



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:38 PM
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a reply to: Xcalibur254

Russia’s involvement in Ukraine conflict ‘revealed after hackers leak emails linked to Vladimir Putin’s top aide’

But then again, believe whatever you want. Don't let facts or reporting stand in the way. That appears to be what people do these days anyways.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:40 PM
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originally posted by: StrizzMatik

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: StrizzMatik

So which countries that we recently invaded is the US still governing directly then?

Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Ukraine and soon to be Syria and Iran, unless you call those laughable excuses for puppet governments "autonomous". Not counting the influence we hold in countries like South Korea, where we have a permanent military presence.

Someone clearly doesn't know what they are talking about. We handed control of all of those countries back to their owners (not to mention we didn't even INVADE the Ukraine).
edit on 13-12-2016 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:41 PM
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originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Krazysh0t

The funny thing is I'm seeing a lot of people that claim the current Ukrainian government has no authority due to perceived US influence are also claiming that the US elections are 100% legit despite perceived Russian influence.

Personally I think both elections are legitimate. Yanukovych was as corrupt as they come and his people ousted him. Even if Russia is behind the DNC hacks it was still the will of the people reacting to the DNC's actions.

There is literally zero evidence other than assertions that Russia hacked us, and the hit-pieces are quite obviously politically-motivated and propagandized to de-legitimize Trump's win. Couldn't be anymore obvious.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:42 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: StrizzMatik

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: StrizzMatik

So which countries that we recently invaded is the US still governing directly then?

Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Ukraine and soon to be Syria and Iran, unless you call those laughable excuses for puppet governments "autonomous". Not counting the influence we hold in countries like South Korea, where we have a permanent military presence.

Someone clearly doesn't know what they are talking about.
nice ad hominem. Try actually refuting something?



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:44 PM
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a reply to: StrizzMatik

You caught me mid-edit there because I didn't like what I said originally.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:46 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

It's not a big deal because our system and so many others has become so clogged up with corruption, our own government doesn't feel to many, any less an enemy than Russia itself. There's so much corruption everywhere, from inside, outside, and who knows where influences things are so tangled up, it's hard to pinpoint a real enemy.

The US isn't the US, and Russia isn't Russia, as both are so entangled in non their own interests, we're all jumping at shadows.

The point is even if Russia is implicated at this point due to the overwhelming rampant corruption clogging the system it's impossible to untangle things enough to really understand what that means, and who's actually benefiting from this angle, and if those pushing it aren't truly the enemy.

Clearly we can't remove and stop all corruption, but in order to fix this situation, we clearly need to clean our own house first, cause in our current state going down the road towards war is horribly irresponsible as we can't truly be sure who or what we're actually fighting for at this point.

Stopping corruption completely is impossible, but we must start pushing back against it, and stop enabling it. Seeing as the exposure of corruption is what caused this, I'm a bit hesitant to go anti-russia as the result. I'm more inclined towards, ok, well if we've found that, what else is there to find that "Russia" didn't expose. Clearly our house needs to be cleaned. This was the DNC what about the RNC? What about others? We need to stop enabling our corruption and allowing them to point us at external enemies every time we begin to realize our own # stinks and start looking into it.

These groups have goals and purposes. According to some the real leaks were from insiders and not the Russians. If that's the case and the goal is to maintain the status quo an external enemy is the number one go to as a solution to this problem. Since it cannot be proved for a fact who did it, they can heavily imply it was Russia, because we can't prove it was insiders either, so it becomes a he said, she said sort of thing. Reasonable doubt.

We'll never really know who did it, nor do we all need to be convinced either way. Just need to implant enough reasonable doubt, we stop looking to closely and things can continue as normal. Convince enough of us to look outward and enough of us to have reasonable doubt and the threat is removed from the status quo.

We NEED to stop letting them distract us every what way and clean house.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:48 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Oh I'm well aware of Russia's role in the current Ukrainian civil war. I personally think that when Trump is forced to establish his position on that whole situation we'll get a pretty clear idea of how beholden he is to Putin.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:49 PM
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a reply to: olaru12

I didn't vote for Trump, I don't think he's the solution. Hillary, however, was clearly not the solution either, as she was literally groomed to fulfill the role of puppet.



posted on Dec, 13 2016 @ 12:52 PM
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a reply to: StrizzMatik

And we have no evidence that the US influenced Ukrainian politics. That hasn't stopped from people claiming that the annexation of Crimea was justified and that the current Ukrainian government is illegitimate. And let's not also forget that such claims have been used as justification for the downing of MH17.



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