Trump: The USAF, F-22,F-35 Vs 6th Gen.

a reply to: darksidius

If you buy everything that's been de-classified. The truth is the performance numbers we have are the baseline figures that haven't changed since the X-35 days. The F-35 does way more than the F-22. Sees way more, tells the pilot way more, and some have suggested it is harder to see than the F-22.

a reply to: Caughtlurking

The -22 has better stealth from some angles, but the -35 is probably a little better from the frontal aspect. The big advantage to the -22 stealth is rear aspect.

Well just a tidbit here..

First the F22 was on the drawing board when I joined......it was called the ATF then. It was stretched and stretched out for years. When it finally flew it was the Cats Ass and still is. I have seen what it can do...

Could we have used 400 F-14D's then? How would they stack up today? I would bet better than the F-18E/F to some extent.

What people seem to forget it that in the 90's when it was in the late stages 100 million bought you something. Today 300 million is probably close. F-15s are 70 mill now...Inflation is a bitch.

The $800 toilet seat comments crack me up, $75 was for the seat and the $725 was hidden, but that is beside the point.

I am torn with this decision, the F22 has NO peer at this time and when folks bring up the PAK and the Chinese #, then I giggle a bit but understand the ignorance...they are 10-15 years behind what the F22 was 5 years ago IMHO. The F35 has promise but it would not necessarily be able to tangle with Flankers these days. I mean do not forget the Russians are practical folks and they use pencils in space not million dollar ink pens. They have tricks up there sleeve and there electronic warfare skilla are pretty damn good if you ask me.

Think of it this way, a PLC5 is a beast, they just freaking run and run. However you find it comes a point in time to move on to a Control Logix, 100 times faster and 10X cheaper. How you say...numbers. Economies of scale is the ticket and with our Business's on board and the bull# red tape out of the way we can have the F42 for the Navy in less than 10 years and the F43 in about 12 for the AF and that is a stretch in time...1/3 that if needed but no one lines the pockets then.

Look, the F22 is the Cats ass right now but there is only 120+ of them. Against Su27s 10 -1 they might stand a chance but that defeats the purpose.

DOMINANCE - that means that what ever the Russians have on the boards now is already outdated.

How do we do this? Well # 1 quit limiting industrial companies with bull# regs. A good example is Boeing and the 787, seems like Airbus got the shaft on that one..We can do it if ALLOWED to do it.

Still NO one can compete with US Technology and we need to keep it that way, we just need to have good managers in place to make sure the cost overruns are avoided...easy to say it I know but I have done it, not to that scale but in the 7 figure range with 40% left OVER after extras.

I think we already know that there is stuff on our boards that will make the F22 regulated to low threat environments. Just get the red tape out of the way and let us do what we Americans do, we design # and when needed the best stuff.

SR71 anyone? How over budget was that one? You see now that would be impossible to do under the present climate.

The Navy needs a Superbug replacement and soon...do not waste any more time. Bid it and hold them to it..Vought and Fairchild went out of business, why?

So I would like to see the F22 upgraded and if need be by a couple hundred F-15X and F16Z for now....Stop gaps..

If we want the F22 line reopened let the Japanese pay for it and we will take a few while waiting for what is next. They want 200 of them, sell them to them..

It amazes me when you thing the F22 has Pentium 3 technology on board..

I wonder if Power Plants and NASA still want 8086 chips?

We can do better and Mr. Trump I expect you to make it happen....Reagan got the B1 back and some sit in the boneyard now so it is possible.

Btw...You think Boeing could make some more BUFFs for $5 mill a copy nowadays?

I need another beer

a reply to: edsinger

200 more to Japan still wouldn't be profitable! In the end the USA is still a capitalist country regardless of it's national needs. If the government puts out a request saying we need 200 F-22 online with a blank check for the lowest bidder then someone(everyone) will show up. If congress says we want someone to build 200 F-22 for 200m a piece you're going to get crickets. No profit, no motivation. The F-35 will work because they're guaranteed to build 2600 of them. In ten years they're going to be rolling off the lines like clockwork and they'll be available for purchase. They'll be profitable pretty soon too I'd bet.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yes it's unfortunate that the F-22 nozzle system didn't make it to the F-35. There is always hope for updated variants at least on the As. If the F-22's big advantage is rear aspect than the F-35's big advantage would be never having anyone behind them uninvited anyway. At least that's the plan from everything we've heard lately about the planes ability to provide awareness.

Forgot to add....That big ol plant in Ft. Worth is still making 16's right? That is 35 years of them...that's pretty good.

I want the 35, it will get cheaper and better but in 10 years there will not be enough 22's to get them there..

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: darksidius

Have you read the latest reports? It's already out performing everything else flying, including the F-22.

All I've seen is it's a beast in the sub-sonic range. Including the F-22?? Link please.

a reply to: edsinger

They're down to the last 15 or so.

a reply to: nwtrucker

They haven't put them against each other in ACM yet, but the radar and electronic systems are far ahead of where the F-22 is.

a reply to: darksidius

NO they are NOT.

The basic designs do not appear as well designed for stealth.

Neither plane has an engine that can provide the power to make them competitive. Russia and china share the engine issue.

There are 8 prototype J-20 and 5 Pak-fa's. there are 178(?) FLYING Raptors in service right now.

There are f-35s flying right now.

By the time Russia and china get Close to being competitive with the raptors the US should have hundred of F-35 to target for the Raptor Or they could simply shoot them down Pak Fa on their own.

We've got it covered.



edited fer spellin' and gramear (lol)

a reply to: nwtrucker

NO , NO , NO.

Focus on a timely 6th gen aircraft.

We have the numbers and time VS the Bear and the Dragon.

Focus on building lots of f-35.

a reply to: darksidius

Not everthing is about pure speed.
one example the f35 carries more missles and a greater varity.

originally posted by: 727Sky
The cost of military items is stupidly insane. If I were POTUS I would put real bean counters looking at itemized cost. As soon as I was told each helmet for each pilot of the F-35 was going to cost 1/2 million I think I would have told them something they would not have wanted to hear. MIC has forever just told the government what stuff would cost and why... 500$ hammer and 700$ toilet seats were approved with a nod and a wink.. Let us all hope those days are over and we start getting more "BANG" for our buck.

The $500 hammer and the $700 toilet seats are an urban legend. Those numbers are technically correct, but, they are a gross misrepresentation. The military procurement system at that time was responsible for those numbers. Say the Navy wanted to buy a 16 oz. ball peen hammer with a fiberglass handle. They would had to have come up with a specification for the hammer and then put it out for bid. The winning bid might come back at $10 dollars per hammer. So the Navy buys 10,000 hammers at $10 each. Once delivered, those hammers had to be placed in storage until needed, requested and then delivered to the unit that needed them. All of the overhead, the creation of the specification, the bidding process, storage and delivery, costs money. When you add up that cost, plus the cost of the hammers and divide by the number of hammers, you get the $500 hammer. In the late 80's they changed that. When a unit needs a hammer, they send a guy to a hardware store with a government credit card.

Aviation in general is weighed down by government regulations. A certified thermal couple (several years ago) was 129$ yet the same exact device made by the same company was 17.95$ ... The only difference with the 17.95$ couple was it did not have an aircraft serial number..

The thermocouples may be the same, but, if the one with the "aircraft serial number" fails, the manufacturer may have to pay to have an expensive aircraft replaced.

I hope everything in the new government is looked at from a business stand point and the fraud and waste to include onerous regulations and departments are trimmed or done away with.
Well one can wish ....

There is more waste, than there is fraud and abuse. I agree with you if we can cut out some of the waste, we can save billions. If it was me, I'd start with Medicare and Medicaid. My mother used to get the exact same paperwork from both the State and Federal Government. How about we eliminate one or the other. My vote would be to eliminate it at the Federal level.

originally posted by: SmilingROB
a reply to: darksidius

Not everthing is about pure speed.
one example the f35 carries more missles and a greater varity.

That's because both platforms were designed for different purposes.

originally posted by: SmilingROB
a reply to: nwtrucker

NO , NO , NO.

Focus on a timely 6th gen aircraft.

We have the numbers and time VS the Bear and the Dragon.

Focus on building lots of f-35.

Really? Then what's going to defend the 2,000 plus F-35s while we wait, what? 10 years, plus, for the technology, design, testing and finally building a sixth Gen.? Less than 200 F-22s? Spend billions keeping the F-15s in the air? All the while the F-16 are falling out of the sky, as we speak?

At least, AT LEAST, full upgrades for every Raptor we have with every toy available.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Uh, F-35s. They're quite capable of protecting themselves.

a reply to: SmilingROB

Oh the F22 has an engine, a nice one at that. I have seen with these old eyes what it can do...I was in AWE....

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: nwtrucker

Uh, F-35s. They're quite capable of protecting themselves.

Well I saw them in Florida and was impressed.

The question one should ask is why are countries lining up to buy them at $150 mill a copy? You can get 2 Flankers for that? I will tell you......

Systems.....systems.....and them there systems....


I remember when I was playing on a brand new 133 Pentium, best money could by or so I thought. Someone slipped up and mention the 800Mhz they were using in 1998.

The F35 is NOT an air dominance fighter and it wasn't meant to be..think of it this way, the F35 is to the F22 what the F16 is to the F15 except lets make that a F16XL vs a F15A..

They will do fine, and they will only get better. They will still be rolling off the line in Ft Worth 20 years from now...the F35K etc...

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: nwtrucker

Uh, F-35s. They're quite capable of protecting themselves.

Then why bother keeping the expensive F-22s? Park 'em if the F-35 is that good. Better yet, sell 'em. Use the money for more 35s...

a reply to: nwtrucker

Why do we fly F-16s in the air to air role when we have F-15s? Why do we fly B-1s, when we have B-52s and B-2s? The same reason we keep them around is the same reason we keep F-22s around. You don't rely on one aircraft to do everything, or you end up like the Navy and Marines, where the only type of aircraft they're flying is in serious trouble, and there's no backup.