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You can be fined $250,000 for not calling people ‘ze’ or ‘hir,’ pronouns if they demand

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posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:22 PM
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Alright, this thread is making me laugh.

As a former business owner and now manager I never address anyone as 'he' or 'she', I use their names, as in, 'Bill, can you hand me that?', or, 'Noodledongler Liversplork, can you please tell Mary to stop screaming, it doesn't hurt that bad'.

Use their damn names and spare yourself the agony, and who calls anyone Mr. or Mrs. Whomever these days anyway? What are we, living on Walton Mountain?




edit on 5-12-2016 by AugustusMasonicus because: Zazz 2020!




posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:23 PM
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originally posted by: angeldoll
I'll just avoid those situations. Being around people I know to be very litigious makes me nervous.



I am out, I wish to avoid those again, that lack basic reading comprehension skills.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:24 PM
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originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: kaylaluv

Hey if you miss the target, "penis or vagina" I guess you can always say, "sorry I can to tell what the hell you are".



Or here's a thought: you could politely ask. To hell with manners, though, right?


How the hell do you ask without offending? Politeness has nothing to do with it, and I can see them being offended either way.

As a famous admiral once said, It's a trap!


How so?

Applications have titles to circle and sometimes a line to fill in. Women are often asked Mrs. or ms.? It is NOT that difficult.


It's becoming more difficult with all the titles and labels, not to mention trying not to assume anything.

Everyone should just wear signs, that way nothing has to be said, asked or assumed and we can all just go about our lives


Learning a few more words should not be difficult. In the case of the OP, there is no reason to assume. The article states clearly you will be asked to use a certain personal pronoun. Depending on your relationship with that person it may be legally required or not.

Don;t act like this confuses you to death.



Don;t act like you have all the answers.

Nothing about possibly legislating pronoun use is wrong to you?


I don't have all the answers. I am trying to give a reasonable response.

I wouldn't want it legislated any further than what I stated before :

If someone I had a professional relationship with kept addressing me with 'Mister' and I asked them repeatedly to not do so and told them my preferred title and they would not stop, it would be harassment.

I am obviously a Ms., Miss or Mrs. If a different person said 10x, "I am a Zie" it should sink in, even if the word is not common.


Well if you look like a woman (feminine as opposed to hairy smelly man) I don't see why someone would call you Mister.

That has nothing to do with whatever the hell Zie means.


But if they do, it is harassment. It certainly does. If someone has chosen a different pronoun, and you are told what that is, yet refuse to use it when referring to them and use one they do not identify with, it is harassment.

If you don;t think so, I will from this point forward, address you as Miss Wardaddy. If I become your employer or we somehow form a professional relationship, I will be fined. As I should be for being a dumbazz.


You can call me whatever you want, it doesn't change anything and I'd just go around assuming you were a moron


And that's fascism. Let the company handle it as they've always done.



It's not fascism. It's inappropriate and a jurisdiction also determined it is a fineable offense in certain circumstances.


It's bull and you know it. Because what stops someone from cashing in on one mistake. If the legal system is gonna go that far over a word, they sure as hell won't care if it was one time in a he said zie said case.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:25 PM
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Do you people even think about whether public policy needs inherent logic?

So let's assume a man (let's use white for this hypothetical) identifies with BDSM and therefore insists from his black or female landlords, employers or businesses call him MASTER.

Does that work?

...waiting for heads to explode.




American Psychological Association (APA)




APA: Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions.

APA: Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others. People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing.



See also:

Harvard abolishes 'master' in titles in slavery row

Aft er Protests, Yale University Gets Rid Of ‘Master’ Title


edit on 5-12-2016 by loam because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:26 PM
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originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: Annee
Don't know if this was covered in the first few pages, but this is not new.



In 1789, William H. Marshall records the existence of a dialectal English epicene pronoun, singular "ou": "'Ou will' expresses either he will, she will, or it will." Marshall traces "ou" to Middle English epicene "a", used by the 14th century English writer John of Trevisa, and both the OED and Wright's English Dialect Dictionary confirm the use of "a" for he, she, it, they, and even I. This "a" is a reduced form of the Anglo-Saxon he = "he" and heo = "she". en.wikipedia.org...


Also Spivak



The Spivak pronouns are a set of gender-neutral pronouns in English promulgated on LambdaMOO based on pronouns used by Michael Spivak. Though not in widespread use, they have been employed in writing for gender-neutral language by those who dislike the standard terms "he/she" or singular they. en.wikipedia.org...


It's not new and it didn't catch on, so what's your point?


Now is the time.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:30 PM
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originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: mamabeth
a reply to: reldra

What this boils down to is someone figuring out how much money
they can get from getting their feelings hurt.


No, it is not. You clearly did not read the article.

The fine includes INTENT and REPETITIVELY and a business relationship.

You would have to do it on PURPOSE over and over to be fined.

I cannot help those that lack reading comprehension skills.


I learned to read during the Kennedy administration.I did see that the article revolved
around business type relationships...tenant,customer and whatever.That does not
change the bottom line...it is always about the money.People will use any excuse they
can to get whatever they can from others.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:34 PM
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a reply to: Metallicus

There was a thread recently asking "why all the hate?", implying it was all from the left.

Thanks for your post: it gives me yet another example to refute that thread.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:34 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

Alright, this thread is making me laugh.

As a former business owner and now manager I never address anyone as 'he' or 'she', I use their names, as in, 'Bill, can you hand me that?', or, 'Noodledongler Liversplork, can you please tell Mary to stop screaming, it doesn't hurt that bad'.

Use their damn names and spare yourself the agony, and who calls anyone Mr. or Mrs. Whomever these days anyway? What are we, living on Walton Mountain?



That's kind of why it's silly to freak out about it. You will not goof up and get fined. To get fined, you have to be using a person's pronouns incorrectly as a form of repeated harassment.

But yes, many members here live on Walton Mountain. Or at least they larp as the Waltons online.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:35 PM
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originally posted by: Abysha
But yes, many members here live on Walton Mountain. Or at least they larp as the Waltons online.


G'night, Hir Abysha!



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:35 PM
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a reply to: kaylaluv

Quite right. Let's just fine or lock up everyone's speech we don't like.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:37 PM
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originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Krakatoa

And if no one sues over this, then it's a non-issue, isn't it? Who's making a big deal about it? A conservative writing an opinion piece.

This law is really put in place to help combat serious harassment and bullying. Anyone that isn't interested in harassing or bullying a trans person doesn't have anything to worry about.


Tell that to TrueBrit.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:38 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Abysha
But yes, many members here live on Walton Mountain. Or at least they larp as the Waltons online.


G'night, Hir Abysha!


And to you, good Ze Augustus!



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:39 PM
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originally posted by: Abysha
To get fined, you have to be using a person's pronouns incorrectly as a form of repeated harassment.


WRONG.

You'd think you people supporting this would at least look it up.

Gender Identity/Gender Expression: Legal Enforcement Guidance



The Commission can impose civil penalties up to $125,000 for violations, and up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct. The amount of a civil penalty will be guided by the following factors, among others:

The severity of the particular violation;
The existence of previous or subsequent violations;
The employer’s size, considering both the total number of employees and its revenue; and
The employer’s actual or constructive knowledge of the NYCHRL.

These penalties are in addition to the other remedies available to people who successfully resolve or prevail on claims under the NYCHRL, including, but not limited to, back and front pay, along with other compensatory and punitive damages. The Commission may consider the lack of an adequate anti-discrimination policy as a factor in determining liability, assessing damages, and mandating certain affirmative remedies.


So a single violation can get you a $125k bill.



edit on 5-12-2016 by loam because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:39 PM
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I remember read this in my newspaper--this is local:
portlandtribune.com - They/them/their: A story of transition in Portland's transgender community...
www.oregonlive.com - Gresham-Barlow School District agrees to pay transgender teacher, add gender-neutral bathrooms after complaint...

Soell said coworkers responded by intentionally calling Soell "lady" or "Miss Soell."

"Another teacher yelled at me openly in the school hallway, saying that my gender is a 'belief system' that I do not have the right to make other people follow and that God is on her side," Soell said in a complaint, obtained by The Oregonian/OregonLive.

Soell and the teachers union filed a grievance last school year. Over the summer, union representatives negotiated a deal that allowed Soell to go by "they" at school.

Last September, district leaders also hired nonprofit TransActive Gender Center to lead a training for Hall staff.

Still, Soell said, the harassment continued through last fall. Soell said a group of seven teachers and educational assistants used the wrong pronouns intentionally in front of parents and students.

So it does matter. It's not happening in another universe.
edit on 12/5/2016 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:40 PM
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Can someone sue their boss for calling them moron everyday?

Would "moron" be covered?




posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:41 PM
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a reply to: Abysha

Any time I get mail, snail or electronic, addressed to 'Mr. Scurve Wallower' (my legal name) I just toss that s*** since it is always junk mail.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:41 PM
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originally posted by: loam

originally posted by: Abysha
To get fined, you have to be using a person's pronouns incorrectly as a form of repeated harassment.


WRONG.

You'd think you people supporting this would at least look it up.

Gender Identity/Gender Expression: Legal Enforcement Guidance



The Commission can impose civil penalties up to $125,000 for violations, and up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct. The amount of a civil penalty will be guided by the following factors, among others:

The severity of the particular violation;
The existence of previous or subsequent violations;
The employer’s size, considering both the total number of employees and its revenue; and
The employer’s actual or constructive knowledge of the NYCHRL.

These penalties are in addition to the other remedies available to people who successfully resolve or prevail on claims under the NYCHRL, including, but not limited to, back and front pay, along with other compensatory and punitive damages. The Commission may consider the lack of an adequate anti-discrimination policy as a factor in determining liability, assessing damages, and mandating certain affirmative remedies.


So a single violation can get you a $125k bill.


From what you just quoted: "result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct"

That's harassment.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:41 PM
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originally posted by: burgerbuddy
Can someone sue their boss for calling them moron everyday?

Would "moron" be covered?



It depends on the state, but I think verbally abusive bosses do fall under hostile work environments in some of them.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:42 PM
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originally posted by: burgerbuddy
Can someone sue their boss for calling them moron everyday?

Would "moron" be covered?



Ask Gary Dell'Abate.



posted on Dec, 5 2016 @ 07:42 PM
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a reply to: Abysha

It's the typical fear mongering from the right. The world's gonna end because we try to stop bullying and harassment.

I wonder how Melania's efforts against cyber bullying will be received? Because it's her, the right will probably be all for it. But if it was Michelle doing it? Oh my God, she's trying to stop free speech on the internet.




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