Halfafone, to reply to your question....

Yes, the unborn child has a right, but it is not given due to the lack of education that we have....

Right now, we have many reasons that prevents this... the number one would be the stupidity... And the lack of insight, without it, the unborn will be taken away by abortion, or suffer the result of birth and live alife by a unfit parent. There needs to be a policy/law that depicts your ability... it's fair to ask that question. Otherwise, the results of not asking are obvious.

But of course your question is far more reaching then I can go into right now. But a quicker answer would come from a child that has gone through the uglyness that you or others that have not experenced and what could be told by them. It only opens the doors for it to be repeated, it will not be the childs fault... it would be the parents, or lack of! Sorry, this topic just takes me to the edge......

Being a new father myself to a 13 month old son, I have a new perspective on this issue. 5 years ago I may have said that these parents need to go to jail for a long time, or something like that. Now, I say take them out in the street and shoot them in the head. I have no sympathy for anyone who results to abusing a child. I don't care what your upbringing is, what your parents were like, what kind of social traumas you have gone through. You don't get any excuses when it comes to your children.

How about psychological abuse? You can see the bruises, the wounds and act.But what about those kids that have been so traumatized by their parents, that they are scarred for life? A classic case: imagine a six-year old watching his/her parents quarreling. He hears all those disgusting, vile arguments a child should never hear. Then the two parents start fighting and they beat up each other for good... a good example of marital life. Imagine the kid seeing this show each week, a little bit like Sesame Street... what will become of that child? He/she's too young to go live on his/her own, is afraid and alone, knows that can't even trust the parents anymore, doesn't know who to call for help, because he/she is too ashamed. I've been through it and I can assure you that it's one of the most terrifying experiences you can have: I still have nightmares, sometimes horrible memories pop to my mind and I get chills just at it. I simply can't get over it, even with professional help and I know I will be haunted till the last day of my life. While I sympatize with physically abused child and pray for them, I also ask you to spare a thought on this issue. A wounded body can heal, over time. A broken soul will bleed forever. Thanks for the attention.

In Sweeden you have a year in which you can "return" your baby to what they believe is non-existance. I suppose sending the child to the Lord isn't a bad punishment, but it is for us still here on Earth.

Originally posted by junglejake
In Sweeden you have a year in which you can "return" your baby to what they believe is non-existance. I suppose sending the child to the Lord isn't a bad punishment, but it is for us still here on Earth.

I'm afraid to ask, but how does one return a baby to "non-existence"?

Originally posted by junglejake
In Sweeden you have a year in which you can "return" your baby to what they believe is non-existance. I suppose sending the child to the Lord isn't a bad punishment, but it is for us still here on Earth.

No thats wrong, you are alowed to have an abortion up to the 18e week of the pregnacy, after that you have to get a special approval from the state, and you can't return=kill the baby after it's born...

[edit on 1-2-2005 by The Todd]

mpeake, you write with passion regardings this.... Yes, there is no excuse, we have the ability to make a decision to stop what has happen in the past, regardless of "One/Many" have gone through. But It comes from within.... some can find it, others... well, maybe it's a pending thought, but still repeating their past on the same child that you were... No Defence Or is there, The concept of Non-Excistence... could be looked at two ways... I like the latter... At least the child stands a chance!

Jess

My queston is, Should HAVING children be a right or should the government give "permission" to become parents.

I don't think so, but I'm curious to see what others think.

Halfofone, To some extent I'd would have to agree with a control... Whatever that would be... At this point in time, it's out of control. As a result the child takes the blunt of it when the parents are unfit, there are many. You can tell those that wish to be parents, and could provide well for them, and those that are not....

Originally posted by Halfofone
Jess

My queston is, Should HAVING children be a right or should the government give "permission" to become parents.

I don't think so, but I'm curious to see what others think.

I actually stopped to comment on this post and haven't finished the whole thread, so apologies if I am jumping the gun. I am single and have no kids. I come at this from the angle of someone who has trained as a primary teacher (5yr - 13yr olds approx) and has since moved on to adult education.

I agree with a lot of what has been said above. So many times you see things that make you just shake your head.

I believe that there are many reasons for this type of behaviour and in some cases it seems plain that there are no reasons. Poverty, previous abuse whatever. Personally I don't find any of those plausable excuses, and don't think there is one. However sometimes I guess - like or not - they can be reasons.

I believe one of the biggest factors is ignorance. Ignorance of how to raise children and also of the ways to get them act and behave in the manner you want. Also I think that right down a the heart of things, a lot of children are simply unwanted. Sexual freedom - whatever your moral views on it - is rampant. That tends to lead to prenancy and babies - that might seem obvious to us, but I have met and taught people to whom it wasn't.

My comment is about government giving permission to have children. I think that procreation is a natural event and a right that the government does have the right to remove. I almost agree with your suggestion though.

I would modify it to say that anybody has the right to have children as they wish as soon as they are qualified to do so. For example, I can drive a forklift, not much call for it my job, but there you have it. I cannot drive a forklift legally because I do not have a license. Is there anything stopping me getting a license? Nope, I just have to study and sit a test if I want one. BUT in the meantime no one is going to hire me as a forklift driver because I have nothing to show that I am competent at it.

I believe effective, safe and enjoyable parenting is a skill. Some people come by it naturally, some don't. I would suggest it would help in general if parenting theory, parenting skills, child behaviour were taught as part of a regular secondary school education. Let people have all the kids they want when they can show they are qualified and have to knowledge required to be successful at it.

That might be a slightly idealistic viewpoint, but whats wrong with a little idealism?

Good thread junglejake.

[edit on 2-2-2005 by whita]

whita, Your correct, Many children are un-wanted... There is the problem, Right behide not wanting to be a parent. But it continues to be repeated because it's unfair not to allow everyone this right to procreate... Sorry I have a problem with that... I perfer to give more rights to a unborn child, then to those worthless Boneheads that care less as long as they get their rocks-off... But we all pay for it in the long run.

there are times when a kid should get tossed out a window...if they don't do their chores, talk back, curse, out past curfew etc... the only way to get the kid to learn is by showing them you are the HNIC

Yeticha, Your a classic result of what the end results of what I'm concern with.. sorry your life has taken the direction that it has...

whita,
I agree. Many good points. I have often come to the same conclusions.
Unfortunately it is hard to enforce such a policy without some sort of orwellian nightmare.

Indeed there is a need to reform our practices in this matter, but resrictions on child birth is something I cannot accept. The possible abuse outweighs the benifits for me.

Having said that...

I think that our children are being cheated. Our society is one of missplaced blame. It seems that when our children act out, everything but the parents are to blame. It's Marilin Manson, or Judus Preist, or videogames, or a naked breast (come on they never hurt anyone ) or the drugs.
It is true that the world is violent, sexual, and crule place, and our children are confronted with these things no matter how vigilant the parent.
Denying this reality and protecting our children, IMO, only serves to feed the hunger to experiance such things once the wool is ripped from their eyes. If we were to give the child a base of understanding of these things, and articulate to them the dangers, benifits, and realities, then they would be more likly to make good choices.
Also I must say that I am increasingly fustrated with education, we need more teachers like you, but more importantly more funding.
If only we held ignorance in the same light as terrorism.

Originally posted by Azza

I'm an Australian, and watch fox news for a laugh sometimes, bill is a closeminded fool, i'm sure no one takes him seriously

[edit on 26-1-2005 by Azza]

I am Chinese, I live in a very international community......One of the best relax time for joking after work is to watch fox news with other friends from east europe, and we always change or switch very few words from Bill's comments, then we can mimic it , all his style of talk and foolish comments can be exactly put on any Communist's central newspaper.

It is true but funny that you see this news station is quite like a communist's cetral news station (almost exactly match). It is sad most American not aware of it------they shall travel to North Korea or some parts of China and see how their newspaper or Central TV news port work--then they will know Fox much better.

Yeah I concur Halfofone.

The main gist of what I was saying is that we in a sense fail young parents (and others I guess) by not giving them the skills to cope with raising a kid(s). Used to be that everyone pretty much grew up in a family unit so learned many of the appropriate skills as part of that. Don't see that as much now.

While condemning these abusive actions like those outlined in this thread, a little voice in the back of my head asks what caused the behaviour in the first place and what can we do to eliminate that cause of the behaviour rather than look just at punitive measures against them.

Some heart felt feelings coming out in here my thoughts are with all of those who have had to endure these hardships, and being legally a child it makes me think just how lucky i am to have had the childhood i had/have. thanks for sharing guys

Proteinx, mate I do the exact same thing, me and my mates make fun of bill day by day, i'm a conservative and i think hes an idiot , but my teachers are worried that a country that powerful can be so ignorant... ahahha today he was demanding that the pope NOT not give his blessing for the Quote "war on terrorism" WITHOUT giving an alternate plan on the Quote "War on Terrorism" BAHAHAHAH cause the Vatican is a house of war strats now, and its there place to wage crazy wars lol .

Originally posted by mpeake
I have no sympathy for anyone who results to abusing a child. I don't care what your upbringing is, what your parents were like, what kind of social traumas you have gone through. You don't get any excuses when it comes to your children.

And this is where I come in. I am currently 30 y.o and my girlfriend, I know, wants children soon. My only problem is that, after suffering many years of child abuse (physical and mental) and after a couple of years of professional counselling, I have managed to put behind me what was done and forgive my parents for it (that's not to FORGET, mind!) but......how do I feel about having kids myself:

My father abused me and he, himself was abused in a family tradition which stretches generations if I believe what I am told. I have come to terms with my abuse but think to myself that the ONLY way I can prevent this happening to my children is not to have them. What do I do? I ask myself that everyday. I am fortunate to have a girfrind with whom I can talk openly about these things but....the question never goes away.

Will I make a good or bad father and, if it's a bad one, how will I ever forgive myself?

Shaitan, You have ask a far fair and concerning question... as I mention here in a previous post

Child Abuse, it's a scar that will continue to repeat itself as a result of ones upbringing, I came from a very ugly childhood, I experence a great deal of it along with my Brouther/and Sisters as well. I don't wish to go into details of it, but take my word for it I know, and feel the pain all over again when I hear of these cases of abuse... God it hurts!
However, it had such a profound affect on me as a child that even then at the age 8 years old I made a promise to myself, it happens to be the only one that I know never broke... (for myself) I will " Never " let the fear/pain/hunger/shame/neglect ever come to my child... I knew then how to change it.... Never repeat it for it was wrong... so wrong I hated my parents for a very long time, It took me into my adulthood to get over that hate. I had to get over it, and did..... But what help was knowing I did not have qualified _Parent's, Yes thats the difference and I stand by that assistment.... we have people that walk this earth that has no ability to raise children and should be deprived of that right... Sorry it's true!
It seems that we have a License for just about everything esle in this world or a degree or some form to be qualified for what we do except for Bringing children into this world and and provide for them as Parents.. It's a tough call, but I could make it! To be honest, I glad the doctor that delivered my sisters baby could see that she was a unfit mother and took steps to see the right people knew about it right out the gate... Thank God for his insight and caring deed. Now that child stands a chance! Was it her fault? no, it was my parents, My other Sister, abused her children similar to our upbringing (I was not aware of it she lived out of state or I would of done something about it) And end up to realize that when I went to her Wake... she drank herself to death... (could not go over her past) I could go on about this all night but I must stop now... If I don't, I feel hate going into these fingers and I don't want to repeat that, I perfer to keep it in a repress Gray Matter that it never belong there in the first place.

So Shaitan, Knowing your past, you have it within you to not repeat it.
I will never regret having my two boys (men now) and they are 2 of the finest that you could meet. No regrets here, and they don't regret me being there Pa.
But first you must really want to be a parent.... but waiting to long will (age wise) take it's toll on you as well. You need to a a huge amount of energy to get it done..
Thanks for sharing!!