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Do you think Japan would have won WW2 if it had allied China instead of attacking?

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posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 09:50 PM
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Nazi Germany, Japan and China made an anti-communist pact in real history.
en.wikipedia.org...

When Japan invaded China. Nazi Germany started supporting China and giving technology to her. It was when the Invasion of Soviet Union did Germany's supply line was completely cut off to China and unable to support China against Japan.

en.wikipedia.org...

We all know China had the best non-technological strategy during the war completely stalling Japan to death. Imagine Japan Technology with Chinese forces support and adopting Chinese tactics and German technological tactics.

www.youtube.com...

What led to Japanese fall was that they thought China was weak and think they could've taken it over within a few days at the same time invading Soviet. Japan fought multiple conflict at once.

Japan was able to build massive naval forces. If they had adopted Chinese Doctrine(removing the suicide law) and done joint exercises as an Asian alliance with China giving her Naval technology and tank technology against Soviet Union with Nazi Germany anti communist pact.

Germany had all the Uboats, Japan had aircraft carrier, battleships and aircrafts, China had a lot of man power(but given technology to help win the war) a combine force against USA and Common wealth.

If they shared technology with China and China providing the resources and more man power. Do you think all three would have taken over the world?

The British was already being stalled to death and losing the offensive war until Germany attacked Soviet Union and US started invading.
Majority of the naval conflict is by US Naval. Would you think Japan with Chinese Forces actually do a land invasion on Pearl Harbor?

edit on 1-12-2016 by makemap because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 10:03 PM
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No. Soviets were a massive ant pile nobody could conquer. Germans were killing them 10-1 and still losing. The Soviets don't re-enforce, they redirect forces to the winning front and push harder. Japan lost control of the sea. Germans lost control of it. If you can't control the sea you lose in a world war. Also language barriers. China, much of their population can't talk to each other, even today. Totally different dialects.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 10:06 PM
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There are too many ways the war could have gone differently, Germany could have keep the focus on Britain and not attack Russia, they could have focus in less projects like a plane for each task, all those concurrent projects just diluted their efforts.

In the end one thing would be determinant, who gets the nukes first, even if Japan is stronger if US get the nukes before germany they would just nuke the other side into submission. I don't think a strong Japan could invade US mainland much further than an important city, US is too big.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 10:16 PM
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a reply to: makemap

The war officially began in 1937, but I guess the conflict can be traced back to 1931. Plus relations were very poor before and after the first Sino-Japanese war. Things were never good between the two nations, a constant power struggle in regards to the whole Asian region.

It's probably worth noting the carnage that happened on the "road to Burma" or "the road of bones", a lot of refugees were slaughtered just because of their nationality by locals. The hatred between China and Japan runs deep in nations other than the two mentioned.

It's fun to speculate but I'd haphazard a guess that such a relationship is a pipe dream, about as possible as France joining the Axis powers.

They still hate each other today, some won't forget the sickness the Japanese brought with them in regards to the Chinese. And trust me, a lot of sick stuff went on.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 10:18 PM
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a reply to: makemap

You're overlooking that China was in the middle of a massive Civil War at this time (which the communists would eventually win). Combine that with Imperial Japan's desire to conquer the entire region and it should make more sense why they would attack a China that was weakened and divided.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 10:20 PM
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You should buy Hearts of Iron 4 and let it play out





posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 10:25 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

I overlooked that, China had been in a internal power struggle for a while... I'm sure the Japanese had a hand in supporting certain sides in that respect.

Kind of like the last punches of the Ottoman empire, everyone had dreams of carving up China, unlike the Ottomans though China has came from the Thanksgiving carving a stronger more unified nation, though of course China had/has a reputable reputation in terms of controlling it's population.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 10:26 PM
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Hypothetically, it would be a tough fight, however, with Russian help, the US and its allies would have still emerged victorious.

Remember, the Japanese were looking for resources and exploited a weakness they saw in China. Anyways, interesting thread and very thought provoking.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 10:33 PM
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I reckon if they allied instead of fought, they wouldn't have even been in WW2. woulda been straight uk/france/russia/us verses germany/italy

End result..probably for the best. Japan today is soo much better than the damn shogun rule of yesteryear (technically not..but whatever..military rule)



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 10:38 PM
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originally posted by: Arnie123
Hypothetically, it would be a tough fight, however, with Russian help, the US and its allies would have still emerged victorious.

Remember, the Japanese were looking for resources and exploited a weakness they saw in China. Anyways, interesting thread and very thought provoking.

But it wouldn't have been necessary. Japans biggest beef with the US was that we were messing with their ability to conquor China. They were already an invading force that took Manchuria over 10 years earlier..the US was hindering a further movement to basically take over the entire pacific ocean (southeast asia) and all of China.

Remove that and Japan had no reason to attack the US, nor the US reason to hamper Japan's conquest plans any further, etc..

This premise is like saying, would Germany be defeated if they sent flowers to their neighbors instead of tanks and united europe instead of conquored it



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 10:51 PM
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a reply to: SaturnFX

To be fair, they had beef with the US because of various reason, one being OIL and that meant securing it from the Indies. The only obstacle being the US. Resource starved, they had no choice but to fight. As you said, Japan was already in China.

Japan wouldn't have attack if we had lifted the oil embargo on them.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 11:17 PM
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originally posted by: Arnie123
a reply to: SaturnFX

To be fair, they had beef with the US because of various reason, one being OIL and that meant securing it from the Indies. The only obstacle being the US. Resource starved, they had no choice but to fight. As you said, Japan was already in China.

Japan wouldn't have attack if we had lifted the oil embargo on them.

Very complex set of circumstances
the oil embargo had a lot to do with their dealings in china, and their future plans they weren't being overly secretive about..the discussion about a complete change in dynamics to such a large degree would be nearly impossible to discuss given many of the reasonings behind the actions would be drastically changed also.

Japan and the US/UK were not on bad terms, especially after WW1 when they had our backs. The politics of their ambitions in the east eventually caused friction..remove that and you dont have the friction that kicked off the turf war.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 11:31 PM
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a reply to: SaturnFX

Agreed.

But remember, that relationship only lasted for so long, the US pressured the British to cut ties with Japan shortly afterward, that left them alone and isolated. 20 years they had an alliance, dead.

I have to admit, they were simply copying what the European powers were doing in order to secure their vast empires. Should we really be surprised at their actions?
edit on 1-12-2016 by Arnie123 because: added info



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 11:43 PM
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originally posted by: Arnie123
a reply to: SaturnFX

Agreed.

But remember, that relationship only lasted for so long, the US pressured the British to cut ties with Japan shortly afterward, that left them alone and isolated. 20 years they had an alliance, dead.

I have to admit, they were simply copying what the European powers were doing in order to secure their vast empires. Should we really be surprised at their actions?


End result..we bombed and nuked them back into...erm..the future.
Seriously...what was in those bombs anyhow..microchips?

well, it all worked out in the end.



posted on Dec, 1 2016 @ 11:47 PM
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a reply to: SaturnFX

You bring up an interesting point though. With the rise of China, wouldn't it wise to unleash the Japanese Dragon and leave it free to arm itself, a potential "Asian Iron Curtain", it would be the first line of defense against possible attacks. I know that is what it technically is anyways, but more assertive and open to do as it pleases...AND its our ally now.

Additionally, this hypothetical scenario of the OPs is also interesting as regardless of the outcome, a major power rises, be it the US or Russia, hell even Britain.

P.S., You ready for Andromeda?



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 12:16 AM
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originally posted by: Arnie123
a reply to: SaturnFX

You bring up an interesting point though. With the rise of China, wouldn't it wise to unleash the Japanese Dragon and leave it free to arm itself, a potential "Asian Iron Curtain", it would be the first line of defense against possible attacks. I know that is what it technically is anyways, but more assertive and open to do as it pleases...AND its our ally now.

Additionally, this hypothetical scenario of the OPs is also interesting as regardless of the outcome, a major power rises, be it the US or Russia, hell even Britain.

P.S., You ready for Andromeda?


I am of the opinion America has to seal our american/asian alliance permanently with Japan and not just remain as strong military allies, but yes, allow them to build up their own military that could easily challenge any aggression without need for backup. I dont honestly believe China will ever be a threat..they are trying to build up a capitalist society. Russia however....they could meddle with things enough to throw the entire area in disarray..especially how Russia/China has their eyes on southeast asian areas now and a unification there.

Military..yes..but the new wars in the area between 1st world nations will be more economic and cyber than actual bombs.

North Korea remains the uncertain factor.


Andromeda has me very much on board now. I am still highly..highly skeptical about it, but am willing to give it a fully open mind...I just am very nervous about who they hired on as writers and such. I will sit back and see what comes of it though. Sometimes really crappy people can make good art..thats my hope anyhow.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 12:46 AM
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Japan lost because there industry was out produced by the USA.

They did not need more men. They needed more ships and planes. Something China could not give them.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 01:01 AM
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Japan lost because two big bombs turned their civilians into ashes

Japan lost the day the Nuke was made ready, everything changed once that happened, even if China was on their side, not much help.
I recon the US would have dropped a hundred bombs all over Japan rather than invade and lose their own soldiers, fair enough as well.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 01:31 AM
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a reply to: makemap



What led to Japanese fall was that they thought China was weak and think they could've taken it over within a few days at the same time invading Soviet. Japan fought multiple conflict at once.


China was, at that time, also in the midst, or beginning stages, of the Revolution that eventually gave rise to the current Communist regime. The Japanese govt, at the time largely controlled by the Imperial Army, badly overestimated their superiority, in regards to both China and the Soviet Union.


Japan was able to build massive naval forces. If they had adopted Chinese Doctrine(removing the suicide law) and done joint exercises as an Asian alliance with China giving her Naval technology and tank technology against Soviet Union with Nazi Germany anti communist pact.


Suicide Law? Care to explain that one. First I've ever heard of it. Japans naval technology was on a par with the best the United States could offer, and some cases better. Their tank technology was, in a word, laughable. Against China, it was fine. Against the Soviets? Not so much. Nor did they have the manufacturing base to match the Soviets, and certainly the Chinese did not. An alliance between China and Japan wouldn't have faired well against the Soviets in the long run.


Germany had all the Uboats, Japan had aircraft carrier, battleships and aircrafts, China had a lot of man power(but given technology to help win the war) a combine force against USA and Common wealth.


In most respects, the Axis powers were, at worst, at a technological parity with the Allies, in many ways, at first anyway, they had the advantage. But those advantages soon disappeared. Training. Experience. ...and the sheer Brobdingnagian manufacturing advantage of the US/USSR were never going to be matched. Japan's naval advantage was illusory. All the battleships in the world were essentially helpless against aircraft carriers and properly trained and motivated aviators--which after early '43, the US had a staggering advantage in. The debacle involving the Prince of Wales and Repulse were the final nails in that debate.


If they shared technology with China and China providing the resources and more man power. Do you think all three would have taken over the world?


In a word, no. Japan, even in alliance with China, could not hope to match the industrial capacity of the United States or the Soviet Union, much less both.


The British was already being stalled to death and losing the offensive war until Germany attacked Soviet Union and US started invading.


What time line are you referencing? By late Spring '42, Germany had been stopped cold in Russia, and Africa, and the bombing campaign against Germany's industry and cities had commenced. By June of the same year, Japan had been halted as well. Midway was the high tide of the Axis powers--after that defeat was inevitable. An alliance between China and Japan would, in all likelihood, only postponed the final outcome.


Majority of the naval conflict is by US Naval.


In the Central and Northern Pacific Areas that was true enough. However, in the South-west Pacific, and Indian Ocean, especially the Indian Ocean, a vast amount of work was done by Commonwealth forces. That should never, ever be forgotten.


Would you think Japan with Chinese Forces actually do a land invasion on Pearl Harbor?


Not a chance. Oahu was, by the end of January/February '42, literally crawling with Army and Marine forces. Naval and Army air force losses from the initial raid on Hawai'i had been largely made good. An invasion attempt would have been suicide. By summer '43, new US ships, "Essex" class carriers in particular, began to swarm onto the scene, and Japans industrial capacity was in no way able to compete with the United States. Even your hypothetical alliance could in no way have done more than postpone what eventually happened.

Japan knew, even before the attack on Pearl Harbor, that they could not defeat the United States, and the Allies in a prolonged war. Their intent, from minute one, was to establish a line of defense that would prove too costly for the American public to stomach.

There is little to show that an Asian alliance would have been any more successful than Japan by itself. China simply didn't have the industrial infrastructure to offer anything of substance to such an alliance. Clear evidence of that is the success that Japan had against China.



edit on 12/2/2016 by seagull because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 02:59 AM
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originally posted by: makemap
Majority of the naval conflict is by US Naval.


Don't brush over the fact that there was intense and complex naval conflict outside of the Pacific. The British defeated the Italian and German navies and were embroiled in the Battle of the Atlantic. Also the British were involved in the Pacific in a growing way, something the US history books tend to (er) forget about. The British and Commonwealth were also constantly engaged against the Japanese in East Asia on the land turning withdrawal into running success.

The Axis lost not because they did not side with China, but because they were out-built by the US economy and doctrinal superiority.

Also don't forget that the Soviets and the Nazi's cooperating in invading countries in Eastern Europe, so had Germany not turned on Russia they may have been the most useful ally. Russia, with secure west may have themselves fancied a good pop at China.




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