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Adoption & Sometimes Corruption of Religious Symbols

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posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 04:31 PM
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Symbols are as old as humanity and civilization. Every culture has produced it's own symbols to either express a thought or ideology. Before the Cross became a Christian symbol it was used in ancient Babylon and in the worship of the sun god Mithra. Christianity only adopted the cross in the fourth century after a Constantine vision. The Upside Down cross known to be associated with Satanism was in fact called Peter's Cross, because it was written and believed that Peter was crucified upside down at his own request. The Fish symbol of Christianity also has pagan origins. The famous peace sign that we have seen throughout American 60's culture is actually the Cross of Nero. Nero believed that there would be world peace without Christianity and so the broken inverted cross within a circle represents Nero's vision.

Now we have the Swastika, an ancient pagan symbol older than Hinduism and Buddhism. It can be found throughout cultures all around the world and is suggested as being the oldest known symbol in the world even predating the Ankh sign of Egypt. The word "swastika" is derived from the Sanskrit word svastika, meaning lucky or auspicious object. The word first appears in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Hindus have different beliefs as to the symbol's meaning, it can mean luck, sun, Brahma and samsara which is generally used to describe rebirth and the reincarnation process. But the swastika is not exclusive to Hinduism; Sumerian, Hittites, Celts, Greeks, other Asians, Europeans and American Indians used the symbol in their cultures. Carl Sagan once hypothesized that a comet came so close to earth that all these cultures were inspired by the sight of the rotation of the comet's nucleus to adopt the symbol. The symbol was also used by Rudyard Kipling on the dust jackets of his books.

Yet with all this great history, the symbol of luck has been stolen from all these cultures and has been corrupted and perverted by Nazism and Hitler. How is it that events that lasted less than 50 years can erase the history of thousands of years?

Adolf Hitler, the deranged lunatic stole the auspicious symbol, not only did he corrupt the name of the symbol, he robbed humanity of true history. In a vision, Hitler claimed the swastika as his own and named it the Hakenkreuz. Because of this one man's actions and deeds, the symbol that millions have revered thru the ages is now taboo in the western world. Western countries and groups admonish anyone for associating themselves with the Swastika without even realizing the long history of the symbol and the meaning behind it.
Did you know that during World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish Air Force until after World War II? Even the early 20th century saw the symbol being used for good luck. There is also a dam in Colorado that is covered with carved swastikas.
While I know this will be a difficult battle and the stigma associated with the swastika may never be changed in my lifetime. I cannot allow the Hitler or the Nazi ideology to win this battle, they can no longer hold the swastika hostage from the world. As a Hindu I am offended by the Nazi perversion of the swastika, and empathize with Jews but there are other versions of the swastika that do not resemble the Nazi perversion and those versions should be able to be displayed without the stigma and association of Nazism. I beg you all to inform yourselves before allowing the Nazi's to win another victory, the corruption and theft of the swastika.
www.locksley.com...
fax.libs.uga.edu...
www.intelinet.org...
history1900s.about.com...
www.nazarite.net...
en.wikipedia.org...
smoter.com...




posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 05:19 PM
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Interesting Images of Swastikas:











and this link of pictures is not be missed
perso.wanadoo.fr...


[edit on 1-26-2005 by worldwatcher]



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 05:45 PM
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Not only has been corrupted, look at all the symbols, Is the pope a satanist for being pictured next a Peter's Cross?
www.samliquidation.com...

and:
more reading info
www.swastika-info.com...

inform yourselves, 3000 years of history cannot be censored due to one man.



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 05:57 PM
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Naziism and other tools of the NWO succeed because they steal powerful symbols and institutions - and subvert them to use for their own purposes.

The way it works is - they steal the symbol, they get the power. It's magic. and it works.

...What can we do? ...Maybe we can just take it all back - the swastika, the UN, Christianity, democracy, everything.

Like, take back our symbols, and take back our power.


.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 08:12 AM
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you could say that soficrow, but how can you ever begin to take back anything, when no one listens.

the resounding silence is quite deafening and speaks volumes.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 08:29 AM
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Have to say, that after reading your charming little rant yesterday before it got pulled, that I'm a bit dissappointed that you are a reporter for ATS. I take it that you ask such blunt questions simply so as people will reply and so gain you points. I see you point about the swastika symbol, the same as I did yesterday, but for pity's sake realise that a group using that symbol killed MILLIONS of people. Do you really feel the need to wear a symbol of luck so badly that you are willing to upset countless victims in the process. Wear your swastika mate, I hope it brings you all you the luck you deserve. Just remember, most of the people you would be upsetting are in the 80's and 90's. Is it really worth it?



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by switchblade
Have to say, that after reading your charming little rant yesterday before it got pulled, that I'm a bit dissappointed that you are a reporter for ATS.


What does my reporting for ATSNN has to do with my personal beliefs and opinions? I did not write an ATSNN article on this, I placed it in the correct forum, conspiracies in religion. Understand the difference.



I take it that you ask such blunt questions simply so as people will reply and so gain you points.

It's nice to know my threads aren't seen as contributions to the content or quality of ATS, but that they are strictly for useless points. Thanks for enlightening me.



I see you point about the swastika symbol, the same as I did yesterday, but for pity's sake realise that a group using that symbol killed MILLIONS of people. Do you really feel the need to wear a symbol of luck so badly that you are willing to upset countless victims in the process. Wear your swastika mate, I hope it brings you all you the luck you deserve. Just remember, most of the people you would be upsetting are in the 80's and 90's. Is it really worth it?


Is there any mention of wearing a swastika? If you took the time to read any of the links I provided, you would understand that is not the purpose and usage of a swastika. You would also see that while the focus is on the swastika, there are other religious symbols that have been corrupted.

Are you still waving a peace sign after knowing it was Nero's cross?

Is the pope a Satanist for being next to an upside down cross?

Is it worth it to suppress 3000 years of history for events that only occurred in the past 50 years?

It is not too late the change the stigma. There is clearly a difference between the Nazi swastika and swastikas used for religious purposes. I am all for the banning of the Nazi swastika (45 degree swastika, black, white and red) but again there has to be distinction made towards the others.

and btw, to make it clear, I have no intentions of using it as an avatar and this is not about Indigo's beef about not being able to have it for his. This is meant to inform and hopefully change the stigma.

[edit on 1-27-2005 by worldwatcher]



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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Is it worth it to suppress 3000 years of history for events that only occurred in the past 50 years?

Like I say, I see your point, but could it perhaps have waited until after the rememberance services? Do you believe it is worth upsetting people who lost some if not all of their familys?
Don't you think that maybe in a decade or so when the people affected by this have passed away, that the next generation will be in a more tactful position to have the symbol's history re-examined?
Patience is a virtue!!! You just have to be willing not to be a part of it yourself!!!



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 09:06 AM
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A day, a week, a year, a decade, it makes no difference how long you wait, especially if you allow the stigma to continue.

sorry to tell you this, but in life someone's feelings is going to get hurt no matter what you do or when you do it.

what makes you think that the next generation will be any different?



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 09:19 AM
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sorry to tell you this, but in life someone's feelings is going to get hurt no matter what you do or when you do it.


Just as long as it is'nt you getting hurt is that it?

Do you live in a town that has the swastika's Plastered all over the place?

I do and there is a large Community of Asian's That I have asked about
this and all I have asked said they would rather not have it. If it got
rid of all the swastika's on there shops and homes.

[edit on 27-1-2005 by switchblade]



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
Before the Cross became a Christian symbol it was used in ancient Babylon

its to lines orthoganal to one another, its too simple to not have been around for a long time and not be repeated independently in various cultures.


and in the worship of the sun god Mithra.

I am unaware of this. THe mitra cult has lots in common with christianity, but I've never heard this before, is there a source for this?


Christianity only adopted the cross in the fourth century after a Constantine vision.

I think it was the letters 'Chi Rho' atop one another no?


The Fish symbol of Christianity also has pagan origins.

The messiah in greek is christos, which apparently is similiar to the greek word for fish, hence,the fish became a symbol, I don't think that particular aspect of christianity need have any pagan connections.


The famous peace sign that we have seen throughout American 60's culture is actually the Cross of Nero.

The peace sign is actually the letters NCD placed together, it was originally a 'no nuke proliferation sign' or somesuch but became associated with peace in general.


Nero believed that there would be world peace without Christianity and so the broken inverted cross within a circle represents Nero's vision.

I've never heard this before, is there a source?


in the world even predating the Ankh sign of Egypt.

Certainly. I think the earliest depictions or it predate any sort of 'egyptian' culture.


The symbol was also used by Rudyard Kipling on the dust jackets of his books.

Kipling probably got it from being so involved with india and british imperialism tho no?


Yet with all this great history, the symbol of luck has been stolen from all these cultures and has been corrupted and perverted by Nazism and Hitler. How is it that events that lasted less than 50 years can erase the history of thousands of years?

Six million dead, an actual real effort of genocide, the horrors of the concentration camps, the threat of global nazi domination and the insanity of the totalitarian nazi state should go well in explaining it. All of that can't be dismissed because of a general history of good usage.

I agree in general with your thesis, the swastika is a strong symbol that resonates with people, witness the extreme hatred it invokes because of naziism. Its a truly ancient symbol. I've read of a carved crane, a relict form extreme prehistory, with wings outstretched and swastikas on each wing, which of course is especially interesting since thats also a common association of symbols.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 09:48 AM
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all of my information can be found in the links included, there are quite a few and lots of reading. sorry I don't have the time to point you to each individual link for each of your point, but be assured all is above.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 10:01 AM
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Originally posted by switchblade
Have to say, that after reading your charming little rant yesterday before it got pulled, that I'm a bit dissappointed that you are a reporter for ATS. I take it that you ask such blunt questions simply so as people will reply and so gain you points.

Thats a little unfair, WW's been around long enough to not have any real need for the points on this board anymore anyways. She's also said that she's a hindu, the swastika is, undeniably, an important symbol in hinduism, and she's obviously and reasonably upset that it was co-opted by nazis. She's upset that somethign from her religion and culture was used as part of that disgusting event in human history. Why shouldnt' she be? If the nazis had used a cross, would christians not have any sincere reason to want to recliam it?


so badly that you are willing to upset countless victims in the process.

I think she isn't advocating that it be used on the board. I think she realized and accepts that thats not going to do any good, and that its better to have a reasoned discussion about the usage of the symbol itself.


most of the people you would be upsetting are in the 80's and 90's. Is it really worth it?

I think that that alone is enough to hold someone back from running around unthinkingly with it. However keep in mind that in the other trashed thread, one of the links used to discuss the usage was actually a jewish heritage site. If they can focus on the actual evil involved, and realize that a symbol is just a symbol, perhaps everyone else can at least discuss the usage of the symbol.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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Is it worth it to suppress 3000 years of history for events that only occurred in the past 50 years?


YES, it is. Maybe not the HISTORY of it, but yes, it is definitely worth not wearing or displaying the swastika in rememberance of the holocaust.

What is the huge importance of one little symbol?? So it has been around for thousands of years. In the last century it was the symbol of one of the greatest evils in modern history. Many of the persecuted that survived, are still alive. Many of the family of those that were killed are still alive.

Quite selfish to want a symbol that represented such evil, around again, because you want it. Talk about an egocentric desire.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 10:23 AM
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oh k

i disagree with you wholeheartedly

symbols are not "owned"
just because someone claims to "own" the symbol doesnt make it reality

you are obviously bias in your assumptions
you takes sides and try to create even more controversy


quote : "Yet with all this great history, the symbol of luck has been stolen from all these cultures and has been corrupted and perverted by Nazism and Hitler. How is it that events that lasted less than 50 years can erase the history of thousands of years? "

my my my...what bias half-truth do we have here?
you seem to have forgotton that Human History is basically a List of Body bags!! Human History is about War death and Destruction *and some construction inbetween the demolitions*

Indians and Hindus too; have been responsible for the murders of tens of millions of innocent people throught the last 5000years

humans in 1940 didnt know CRAP about history of thousands of years before them
humans in 2005 know little more than those in 1940

Nazis DIDNT STEAL the symbol
people have the freedom to use any dam symbol they want

but you HAVE to go off crying "oh the nazis they ruined our pagan symbolism"

They DIDNT steal it
THey didnt pervert it

its YOU who sees all this
Not I

i personally dont give a %(@$ about swastikas
so what if it offends you?

You Offend me
but what can we do about that?
nothing just post comments back and forth

plus; Carl Sagan is really smart he had 23 PhDs...

anyway back to my rant agianst your posts

basically your upset because you Wanted to use the swastika but since the "nazis ruined it for you" you come onto forums and cry all day and nite about how you hate the "evil nazis" and you hate the fact they used swastikas

your just as bad as the nazis in your narrow minded approach to intellectual thought

yes i said it
your mentality equates to that of the "nazi mentality"

you see everything as black and white
when reality is all grey

another rediculous quote "Adolf Hitler, the deranged lunatic stole the auspicious symbol, not only did he corrupt the name of the symbol, he robbed humanity of true history. In a vision, Hitler claimed the swastika as his own and named it the Hakenkreuz."

HOW THE HECK DID HITLAR ROB ME OF HISTORY?????
I never knew anything about this vision of hakenkreuz or any of this other bias jabber
i knew 3 things about the swastika
it was used by nazi germany, it was an old pagan symbol, and its just a simple ninja star looking collection of lines....

basically you think that everyone suffers from hitlar "stealing" the swastika from your beloved Ramayana and the Mahabharata
which are basically bias books of nonsense

why is it every single person from India thinks they are like so "Special"
i swear, every single Indian ive ever met always goes on and on and on and on and on about
How "India was the first to do this, and India was the first to do that"
and how "India is best because of this" or that "Hindus are the one true original religion" or any other bias unproven nationalistic propaganistic BS that you all speak...

Christ you sound like an AMERICAN!!!!

heres another great quote by yourself
"While I know this will be a difficult battle and the stigma associated with the swastika may never be changed in my lifetime. I cannot allow the Hitler or the Nazi ideology to win this battle, they can no longer hold the swastika hostage from the world. As a Hindu I am offended by the Nazi perversion of the swastika, and empathize with Jews but there are other versions of the swastika that do not resemble the Nazi perversion and those versions should be able to be displayed without the stigma and association of Nazism. I beg you all to inform yourselves before allowing the Nazi's to win another victory, the corruption and theft of the swastika. "

For crying out loud; you actually believe this BS your spilling?
Hitlar is dead , the Nazis are almost all gone, and you still think there is a battle being fought over the "meaning of the swastika" today in our world...

are you really this credulous or are you just joking?

i will play devils advocate even further and make you cringe

i do think that you are mad because You want to USE the swastika yourself! are you secretly a Nazi trying to make the use of swastikas ok agian?
i doubt you are, but if you were it would be funny
"hindu-nazi conspiracy to reinstate the swastika"
that would make a good thread here at this website

by the way
im sorry if i Offended you with my opinions

buy YOU definatly Offended me with your "pro-india" view of the world
and that "pro-hindu" view offends me also

i dislike all religions
its because they are pretty stupid usually

i dont know why but i have alot of built up animosity towards Pro-India people

maybe its because there is 1.4 billion indians and i think thats 500million too many?
lol

anyways
swastika = nazi

you cant change that
so live with it



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 10:30 AM
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How about this for a theoretical compromise. You have your beloved swastika. Keep it all for yourself in the vain hope of being lucky, but realise that you will be viewed as responsible for every act of white supremacy, cruelty and violence in the name of it!!!!!!!



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 11:35 AM
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I have no response to the last two comments. You said your opinion and I accept it. Think of me as you wish, and fyi I am American.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 11:59 AM
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I agree with WW. This symbol was stolen. what needs to be realized is
that it had many uses prior to Hitler. It was used by the Norse as a sun symbol,
to the Hopi it is a map of where the clans went when they came into this world,
Etc. Etc. .

On the other hand the Nazi version needs to be preserved and remembered
so that no one ever forgets what was done under that particular sign.

the arguement about this symbol is much the same as the arguement over the Pentacle/Pentagram. IMHO ignorance of the meaning / history of any symbol
today is an excuse for lazyness and is good for only about the time it takes to do some research.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 12:10 PM
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I think you should be more concened with the symbols and what it means to those that use it, and see it.

Wearing a swastika in Europe is in very bad taste and many would take offense and ask you not to wear it. But if you explain to them why, they might understand and be more sympathetic to you.

But no one "Owns" a symbol or has rights to it. It is a travesty that someone used the symbol and attempted to commit the genocide and slaughter of innocent people, but that is something everyone has to deal with. Maybe with understanding and education you can change that. But I doubt much will happen until 20-30 years from now when people who lived the horrors are no longer alive



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by Jehosephat


Wearing a swastika in Europe is in very bad taste and many would take offense and ask you not to wear it.

But I doubt much will happen until 20-30 years from now when people who lived the horrors are no longer alive


indeed, for sensible peoples, the intellectualization of the nazi symbol is null.

??20-30 years??....i think it may be closer to 20-30 generations
~~

perhaps the boast that the 3rd reich would last 1,000 years will be manifested by the burning of the swastika into the human collective psyche.

on the personal level...i have come to compartmentalize the crooked-cross:
the nazi symbol was tilted at an angle[swastika]?
the Hopi symbol[swastiga]? among others similar are verticle+horizontal
the difference is there, but not different enough to get gut reactions
from either end of the crooked-cross spectrum

^^




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