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Trump suggests jail, loss of citizenship for burning U.S. flag

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posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 09:19 AM
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a reply to: Shr00mz

Your emotionally ranting.

Do you understand legal precedence and the American legal system?

The flag burning as symbolic protest has been ruled a first amendment right. How would you go about changing this? I mean this technically not "it's been done before" this way you will become educated as to how legal precedence works.

Creating the symbol to over ride the philosophical idea is exactly what the forefathers warned about.

In fact they believed it was better for the country to be destroyed than to destroy the philosphy. This was obviously more theoretical philosphy but you have to understand the premises.

Yeah flag burning is vile. It's stupid, and short sited.

It's not illegal and trump can't do anything but try and pick activist judges to uphold his scary fascist idea of nationalism over freedom.




posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 09:24 AM
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originally posted by: Shr00mz
a reply to: luthier

Yes, I can see under facts that they did it. When asked Supreme Court Judge said he had to stick to constitution, but it's immoral to degrade and burn our flag. I respect that, but guys, it gets changed.

Freedom of Religion was changed to keep people from harming others or animals.

Just like can practice Satanism, can't kill animal as ritual to its diety. There will always be "exception" to the rule.

Yes, it's an extreme statement but it's an example of it. You can practice free speech without burning the flag.

When does it shift from freedom of speech to becoming a hate crime? Most of time lately I see flag being burned, violence persuded after. It's not freedom of speech, it's hate. It hurts people. It hurts me and I know I'm not the only one.

So burning a flag is more "hate speech" than the KKK marching up and down the street holding hate speech rallies? Because that is Constitutionally legal too.


Technically it violates the law.. emotional distress. I couldn't sleep a wink today because it hurts to know it's okay to trample flag I hold dear. I find it OFFENSIVE to me. Is racial slur a hate crime? Is burning my flag a hate crime? How can it not be. You think troops over seas are watching the TV cheering you on? If this was war...would that singley put down every man and women fighting for it? To literally 'preserve the fabric so triumphantly woven'

No TECHNICALLY it doesn't violate the law. TECHNICALLY it is legal according to the 1st Amendment. TECHNICALLY you are misusing the word TECHNICALLY. Your emotional distress isn't a TECHNICAL breaking of the law. It's just you being triggered and needing a safe space.

Also don't appeal to US Soldiers unless you were one or are one. There are many US soldiers AND veterans who have spoken out for the right to burn a flag. Including myself.


There is a consequence for every action. This actions consequences outweighs if it wasnt banned. No sadness to not burn flag.. yet you sadden those around you when you do.

This is irrelevant. Yes there are consequences for every action but the 1st Amendment is clear about free speech and government action towards it.


I also find it crazy that my opinion differs from everyone here on forum, yet get told "your opinion isn't better" it's only real opposing force. So please stop trying shut me up and be hypocritical. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying it's wrong. That's what I believe. I'm other half and still not given why use act of terrorism to persuade a person to believe your side is right by burning flags and picking fights or prove you're right. plain and simple terrorist burn flags, Israel is only one who doesn't in middle east. It's offensive and distasteful.

There are PLENTY of people who are saying it is wrong to burn the flag (again me) but support your right to do it. Sometimes defending freedom is defending the freedoms you don't necessarily like. You have to take the good with the bad. That's what REAL soldiers fight and die for. Not some cloth (that was probably made in China anyways).


Years fear of terrorism and antics not bothered me emotionally and physically but others. You're condoning that to spread hate. I see no difference than burning flag, or burning a cross. Both symbols. Items of culture. It offends blacks and we prevent that. Both is represented as freedom of speech and freedom of hate. Freedom to hurt. To manipulate. Just like burning crosses, I say it's wrong and hurtful. I feel slapped in face, honestly. I feel provoked to DEFEND that flag.

What happens when burn that flag and patriot snaps on you? Post traumatic stress kicks in from countless watching people burn flag and call you infidel. what if it triggers him to DEFEND that flag?

Your knowledge of how PTSD works is HIGHLY flawed. Fun fact: Rambo is NOT a good place to get your narrative about how PTSD works. In fact, to suggest this nonsense is HIGHLY offensive to the people who actually suffer from it.
Defining a Community: Most Veterans Don’t “Snap” Because of PTSD



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 09:29 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Supreme Court ruled it in 99...get facts strait.

Did America form it's constitution in 1989? or 99? No. It formed 1777...which is a looooong freaking time to add to it.

It's what I'm saying moron. Things change.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 09:37 AM
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originally posted by: Shr00mz
Supreme Court ruled it in 99...get facts strait.


Maybe you should follow your own advice:



Argued: Nov. 4, 1992
Decided: June 11, 1993 Source



Did America form it's constitution in 1989? or 99? No. It formed 1777...which is a looooong freaking time to add to it.


Actually genius, the United States Constitution was ratified in 1788.


It's what I'm saying moron. Things change.


You make me chuckle.




edit on 2-12-2016 by AugustusMasonicus because: Iä! Shub-Niggurath! The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young!



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 09:42 AM
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originally posted by: Shr00mz
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Supreme Court ruled it in 99...get facts strait.

Did America form it's constitution in 1989? or 99? No. It formed 1777...which is a looooong freaking time to add to it.

It's what I'm saying moron. Things change.

The flag burning law was made into a law in 1968. It was overturned in 1989. So for 21 years it was federally illegal to burn the flag, while for 192 years before that it was legal.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 09:56 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Thank you for a more reasonable debate.

I'm not saying burning cross is less or more. I am saying it comes from hate. If rules are put in to protect someone. Their feelings. it is just as much my flag as it is yours. I just don't see equality to flip flag upside down and use it to symbolise distress. You protest your using freedom of speech and flag to show your distress. We are flag, we share the community. Is it freedom of speech to burn my flag? It's my flag too.. not by individual personal possession..but together. There ways say what need too without open knowledge of bringing people down.

So maybe he doesn't snap. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, it says they isolate and go into hiding. It's no rocket science to know things and events trigger memory and mind gets best of you. Is that okay? It's where I draw the line
It's not irrelevant to say shouldn't do it if it provokes hate and sadness. We're trying stop that. How can we work together as society and people do it to others? I'm asking people to think of actions they're doing

We are worried everyday that our nation will be attacked by terrorism. Sneak in through the border. This is weapon they use against us. Always have. Especially in times like these should people NOT do it. Burn flag it gives terrorist strength. It's aiding them. It's dividing the country. What happens when Muslim American does it? Fight breaks out and we all loose? What happens when see "make america Mexico again" burning flags... that isn't freedom of speech. It's tyranny. I don't hate Muslims or Mexicans but some flag burning down right offensive. When I hear flag burnings it's what people see... It's why Trump is mad.

This wasn't a thing until 89-now... and it's a growing problem or else wouldn't constantly be up this wouldn't happen if naturally people more now than ever asking it to stop to be illegal



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 10:20 AM
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originally posted by: Shr00mz
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Thank you for a more reasonable debate.

I'm not saying burning cross is less or more. I am saying it comes from hate. If rules are put in to protect someone. Their feelings. it is just as much my flag as it is yours. I just don't see equality to flip flag upside down and use it to symbolise distress. You protest your using freedom of speech and flag to show your distress. We are flag, we share the community. Is it freedom of speech to burn my flag? It's my flag too.. not by individual personal possession..but together. There ways say what need too without open knowledge of bringing people down.

And again I agree with you. I don't want to burn a flag and I have no plans to do it to protest Trump. It's just that I have to accept that SOME people choose to express themselves that way. And frankly they aren't hurting anyone. You can claim emotion distress but that isn't much of a legal defense. Especially when court rulings have time and again sided in favor of hate speech being protected speech.


So maybe he doesn't snap. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, it says they isolate and go into hiding. It's no rocket science to know things and events trigger memory and mind gets best of you. Is that okay? It's where I draw the line
It's not irrelevant to say shouldn't do it if it provokes hate and sadness. We're trying stop that. How can we work together as society and people do it to others? I'm asking people to think of actions they're doing

I say that about racism and hateful rhetoric but it didn't stop Trump running a campaign based on that. Free speech is free speech. You just have to have thicker skin. PTSD suffers have many problems and that is a whole separate can of worms. Unfortunately we aren't doing right by them, but please don't use them as a political football to push your grievances.


We are worried everyday that our nation will be attacked by terrorism. Sneak in through the border. This is weapon they use against us. Always have. Especially in times like these should people NOT do it. Burn flag it gives terrorist strength. It's aiding them. It's dividing the country. What happens when Muslim American does it? Fight breaks out and we all loose? What happens when see "make america Mexico again" burning flags... that isn't freedom of speech. It's tyranny. I don't hate Muslims or Mexicans but some flag burning down right offensive. When I hear flag burnings it's what people see... It's why Trump is mad.

Well the US is a diverse country full of many different opinions. Some of those opinions are going to upset you. You'll just have to accept that in some way, but criminalizing their behavior is the wrong answer. Especially when it isn't hurting anyone. AND on top of that criminalizing flag burning is criminalizing a form of political speech. If there is a form of speech that the 1st was most specifically written to protect, political speech would be it.


This wasn't a thing until 89-now... and it's a growing problem or else wouldn't constantly be up this wouldn't happen if naturally people more now than ever asking it to stop to be illegal


Actually what made it a federal law in the first place was a bunch of hippies (read: liberals) were burning the flag in protest of the war in Vietnam, so a bunch of warhawks (read: conservatives) wrapping themselves in patriotism made it illegal. It was a partisan stunt because they couldn't accept that their war was unpopular.

So here we go again with liberals burning the flag. Do you know WHY they are burning the flag? Because they know it will get a reaction out of patriots like you who overvalue the flag (again which was probably made in China). That's the point. They WANT you mad at them so you are forced to pay attention to them and their grievances. That's the whole point of protesting.
edit on 2-12-2016 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 10:41 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I agree with everything but conservative and liberal and who was doing what in the 60'S.

Who got us in and who got us out?

Conservatives were very different back then.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 10:51 AM
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a reply to: luthier

Well the narrative of hippies versus warhawks remains true at least.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 10:58 AM
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originally posted by: Shr00mz
a reply to: AMPTAH

You see, how can a nation as a whole become one and respect each other when you disrespect the entire nation?

What's sad is people come from bad life, to slightly better one, and in return they burn the American flag.The irony of stupidity. Won't go back Mexico and do it cause it's illegal.



Look, burning the flag is bad. But, that's what is good about it.

It's not a "celebration".

It's a "protest".

If we all thought it was great to burn the flag, there would be no point to burn it.

Flag burning carries the exact same message as Jesus gave,



But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. -- KJV, Matthew 12:2

Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets. -- KJV, Luke 11:43


The Pharisees had become so focused on "the symbolism" of the rituals, that they forgot what that symbolism was for. They neglected the real work and dressed themselves up just for the show of being holy and righteous. Jesus "disrespecting" their laws and symbolic rules demonstrated to them that these symbols only have value when they represent good works. They loved to "be seen" to be doing the right thing, but it was all "appearances". In their hearts, they were violating the intent of the symbols, but not letting people know this pubic-ally. Jesus revealed this by testing their true faith, showing everyone that the Pharisees were putting "symbolism" above "people".

That's what flag burning reveals. We are proud of the flag, when those who wear the flag do things we are proud to be connected with. When they do not, we burn the flag, because it is being used to represent things we don't approve of. When my nation does great things, I wear my flag with pride, and frown on anyone who would dare to burn my flag. When my nation does evil things, I burn the flag, and frown on anyone who wears it with pride.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 10:59 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yeah and it wasn't really a dig on you, just a narrative as to how things change.

I can't imagine Dick Cheney making the Eisenhower fair well adress.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 11:09 AM
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originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: Shr00mz


Practice of Terrorism:
Burning books, flags,



Nonsense. There's no terror in burning a flag. It's a symbol. Not a person.


Huh? While I agree that it isn't terror by definition...maybe it should be. You are allowed to burn a picture or effigy of a person (which represents them) so I guess burning a flag isn't illegal. But what if I wanted to burn an effigy of your child out on the street in front of your home? Is that legal also? Or what if I wanted to take another symbol...maybe a cross and burn it out on the street of a black family? Is that fine with you too?
edit on 12/2/2016 by WeAreAWAKE because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 11:12 AM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

That is a sterling explanation of the reality of the burning of flags as political protest.

Both thumbs up!



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 11:20 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yeah and it wasn't really a dig on you, just a narrative as to how things change.

I can't imagine Dick Cheney making the Eisenhower fair well adress.

Lol. Fair point.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 11:23 AM
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originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: Shr00mz


Practice of Terrorism:
Burning books, flags,



Nonsense. There's no terror in burning a flag. It's a symbol. Not a person.


Huh? While I agree that it isn't terror by definition...maybe it should be. You are allowed to burn a picture or effigy of a person (which represents them) so I guess burning a flag isn't illegal. But what if I wanted to burn an effigy of your child out on the street in front of your home? Is that legal also? Or what if I wanted to take another symbol...maybe a cross and burn it out on the street of a black family? Is that fine with you too?

Cross burning as hate speech under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution
edit on 2-12-2016 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 11:25 AM
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originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: Shr00mz


Practice of Terrorism:
Burning books, flags,



Nonsense. There's no terror in burning a flag. It's a symbol. Not a person.


Huh? While I agree that it isn't terror by definition...maybe it should be. You are allowed to burn a picture or effigy of a person (which represents them) so I guess burning a flag isn't illegal. But what if I wanted to burn an effigy of your child out on the street in front of your home? Is that legal also? Or what if I wanted to take another symbol...maybe a cross and burn it out on the street of a black family? Is that fine with you too?



The direct threat and fighting words come up.

The law see's a difference with saying I am going to kill your kid and burn a picture than a general flag burning from ignorant, often hormonal youth.

If you burn the flag and say on so and so a date I am going to so and so so and so, now your heading past free speech as far as legal precedence is concerned.

You can legally withhold funding say from a university for protesting, like to test their convictions.

But the flag burning has to be a direct focused threat or cause riots to be considered a crime on its own or as evidence of the crime.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 12:59 PM
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a reply to: luthier

most of the world does not hold women back. It is literally a handful of countries in Mid East, Africa, and maybe Asia. Im certain you can count them on two hands if your lucky. How exactly are you defining "hold women back" , even though its an off topic discussion. Im just curious.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 01:02 PM
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a reply to: worldstarcountry

I would say in India and China the upward mobility of woman as a population is still very difficult.

I would include a lot of Asia and much of the middle east and a very large part of the African continent.

Which is most of the world's population.
edit on 2-12-2016 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 01:11 PM
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a reply to: luthier

and yet both of those countries have women in very high places both corporate and government, and are not restricted from voting or property rights. Although there is still issues of cultural tribal backwardness in both countries, none of it is legislated in writing. But hell, we got cultural tribal backwardness in the US too if you consider the polygamist Mormons out West or how the Amish expectations of women in their small enclaves.



posted on Dec, 2 2016 @ 01:17 PM
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a reply to: worldstarcountry

My comment is over the population of voting people and how they believe and think which is what my comment was in response too.

What is the rate of executive leadership vs the work force in any region I mentioned?

See if you only look at symbols like a presidency or a flag you don't get the real story.

There is no morality in treating symbols greater than reality or the philosphy of a constitution.

Who cares about a flag that is more a symbol than a meaning. It may as well be a meaningless happy face.



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