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Trump suggests jail, loss of citizenship for burning U.S. flag

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posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:33 AM
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Am I really watching people say that burning the US Flag should be considered treasonous and criminal - requiring imprisonment or exile - and then conflate the Confederate flag into the argument?

A flag flown by people who didn't just burn the US Flag, but literally opened fire on it in an attempt to forever remove it from the world...

My brain just broke.




posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:35 AM
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Personally as a UK citizen born and bred I would think it an utter sign of contempt to burn our flag, the history which is not always proud tells of an epic struggle by ordinary people to protect and enrich their land, to see some utter scum bag fresh here from some corrupt place like Pakistan etc burn it while laughing just says reams about the respect to this country and THAT is what I think Trump is trying to push, its the unity and respect to the country he wants, the threats of jail etc are secondary.

I support the notion based upon what I have said and what I believe it stands for, if its just to control then no, verbally people should be allowed to say pretty much what they want but certain ideals must be held high and a price be paid for disrespecting them. In this new Radical Islam its all about killing those who disrespect it but to then disrespect someone else's faith or rights I think deserves a price, just not as savage as theirs.

Having seen how so called justice is handled by Police here where two sides are protesting, one are Radical Islamic sets and the other, mostly ordinary people saying they don't want them here, one side scream that they will cut your head off and the other shouting to suggest they go back to where they have the same mentality, guess who gets arrested.

When we allow others to devalue our culture and ways its a slippery downward path and certainly disrespects those who fought hard and died for this country..



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:39 AM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: ColdWisdom



The thing is, if we go back to criminalizing the burning of the flag (publicly) then I think we would see very quickly the number of flags being burnt in public drastically reduced.


I don't think we should curtail free speech.



Consider this, if burning an American flag is a criminal offense and the police are allowed to engage you for that offense (stop you, ID you, run your name through the database) then illegal immigrants would have an incentive not to burn the flag. That is, if the immigration laws are actually enforced as well.


What about American citizens?


Burning the american flag has been illegal until 1969 already but that law was then changed, why would it not be changed again?

Also, The most recent attempt to adopt a flag desecration amendment failed in the United States Senate by one vote on June 27, 2006. I think a lot of people DO want it to be illegal, just because it was amended at one point in the 60's does not mean it can never be touched. If it can be amended that late in the game in can be "un-amended".

The "Free speech" argument is far from air tight. Free speech itself also has limits, burning the flag, according to a lot of people myself included should be part of that limit and it certainly can be as it already has been.



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:41 AM
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originally posted by: TurkmenAlevi
The greeks stepped on Turkish flag too, so a Turkish person brought in a Greek flag to be stepped on by Ataturk but Ataturk denied stepping on it, picked it up and placed it in a safe place.


Wonderful. What does this have to do with the United States?



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:42 AM
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a reply to: everyone

You are backwards. It was legal to burn the flag from 1776 - 1968 then a bunch of hippies burned some flags to protest the war in Vietnam so the conservative war hawks made it illegal. Then in 1989 the SCOTUS ruled it unconstitutional with super conservative Scalia being one of the deciding votes (he was in fact disgusted by even suggesting it should be illegal). So it has actually been legal in this country to burn the flag FAR longer than it being illegal. So your appeal to tradition fallacy doesn't work.
edit on 30-11-2016 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:43 AM
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They make Trump sound like a tyrant


He's been sounding like a tyrant the whole time, yet half the country voted for him anyways. Thanks for putting our freedom at risk. It's too late to be concerned now, the damage is done.



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:43 AM
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a reply to: Mclaneinc

I love my country and my countrymen.

That being said, I am far more likely to burn our flag than anyone who just arrived here. I know our government does not represent us, that private interests have more power than the national interest, and in any situation in which ones government allows that, it invalidates the democracy which is pretended to. If I were to burn our flag, it would be in protest and out of love for what it represents, as a symbolic gesture to anyone who happens to see it, of what our government is doing to our country for petty, and entirely inhuman reasons.

Our government is killing our nation, and if it must be so, then a funeral pyre must be had to honour its passing. A wake up call, a symbol, a distress call, however you see it, you cannot in fairness state that no countryman of yours would dare, only that you are not such an one yourself.



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:43 AM
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originally posted by: GodEmperor
So, a few new SCOTUS appointments by Trump, and we could see no more flag burning. Possibly even outlawing kneeling while National Anthem is playing, and requiring people to give the 'American' salute in public.


Hopefully we could sing Deutschland Uber Alles at the same time.

If you do not know the words, no problem, they will be in your mandatory copy of Mein Trumpf.



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:45 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

“The flags are sacred; no one has the right to be disrespectful to them, even if it is your enemy’s”.

-Gazi Mustafa Kemal Atatürk



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:47 AM
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a reply to: TurkmenAlevi

Wow, wonderful. What does a guy who lived in Turkey have to do with the conversation?



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:52 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t


You are backwards. It was legal to burn the flag from 1776 - 1968


O really?

blog.constitutioncenter.org...


The battle in the courts over people burning the American flag, or doing other offensive acts to the flag, dates back to 1907. In the prior decade, states started passing laws than banned flag desecration, which not only included laws protecting the flag from physical abuse, but also from commercial abuse.

The Court said in the 1907 case of Halter v. Nebraska that two businessmen couldn’t sell beer that had flag labels on the bottles, upholding a state law.

Then a 1931 case set the first precedent for the use of a flag in an act of symbolic speech under the First Amendment, when the Court struck down a California law that banned the flying of a red flag to protest against the government.

In 1968, Congress approved the Federal Flag Desecration Law after a Vietnam War protest. The law made it illegal to “knowingly” cast “contempt” upon “any flag of the United States by publicly mutilating, defacing, defiling, burning or trampling upon it.”



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 06:55 AM
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a reply to: everyone

Ok... Let's turn the tables back to 1907 for states getting involved. That's still, let's do some quick math here... 1906 - 1776 = 130 years. Meanwhile, 1989 - 1906 = 83. But even then, that is just states. Federally it was still legal to burn the flag up to 1968 as I said. So I STILL have tradition on my side. You are still wrong.



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 07:13 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: everyone

Ok... Let's turn the tables back to 1907 for states getting involved. That's still, let's do some quick math here... 1906 - 1776 = 130 years. Meanwhile, 1989 - 1906 = 83. But even then, that is just states. Federally it was still legal to burn the flag up to 1968 as I said. So I STILL have tradition on my side. You are still wrong.


What are you ? 5 years old or something?
This is you "I was wrong too but i still win *sticks tongue out" as if all the very considerable time flag burning had been illegal is somehow made irrelevant because of the infantile reasoning you are displaying.



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 07:25 AM
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originally posted by: everyone

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: everyone

Ok... Let's turn the tables back to 1907 for states getting involved. That's still, let's do some quick math here... 1906 - 1776 = 130 years. Meanwhile, 1989 - 1906 = 83. But even then, that is just states. Federally it was still legal to burn the flag up to 1968 as I said. So I STILL have tradition on my side. You are still wrong.


What are you ? 5 years old or something?
This is you "I was wrong too but i still win *sticks tongue out" as if all the very considerable time flag burning had been illegal is somehow made irrelevant because of the infantile reasoning you are displaying.

Uh no. In the world of debate there is this thing called "concede a point". It's where you concede that a point you presented is wrong but your conclusion still stands because of additional reasoning that takes this new concession into account. It isn't chidish at all and is a way for a debater to show respect to his opponent's points. Though you getting triggered about it and lobbing ad hominems at me certainly says more towards you being a child than me.
edit on 30-11-2016 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 07:29 AM
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originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Mclaneinc

I love my country and my countrymen.

That being said, I am far more likely to burn our flag than anyone who just arrived here. I know our government does not represent us, that private interests have more power than the national interest, and in any situation in which ones government allows that, it invalidates the democracy which is pretended to. If I were to burn our flag, it would be in protest and out of love for what it represents, as a symbolic gesture to anyone who happens to see it, of what our government is doing to our country for petty, and entirely inhuman reasons.

Our government is killing our nation, and if it must be so, then a funeral pyre must be had to honour its passing. A wake up call, a symbol, a distress call, however you see it, you cannot in fairness state that no countryman of yours would dare, only that you are not such an one yourself.


You make no sense. The government of our country are indeed killing the nation, burning our flag by their actions. If you want to burn the flag too, you are just joining them. The flag represents the country and it's ideals, not a bunch of corrupt politicians that desecrate it by their very actions.

The best form of protest is to wave the flag in their faces.



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 07:32 AM
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a reply to: UKTruth

No it is not.

At present waving the flag of this nation can only be spun into support of its government and their every machination, or worse misconstrued as the act of one of those seemingly myriad bands of hypernationalist gutter dwellers we hear of in the press.

No one waves the flag I love in protest, because it does not bloody well work.



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 08:48 AM
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originally posted by: Mclaneinc
Personally as a UK citizen born and bred I would think it an utter sign of contempt to burn our flag, .


That's the right attitude for a citizen of a "Monarchy."

The Monarch rules by divine right. So, to burn the flag is an affront to God.

But, in the US of A, "we the people" are the highest order in the land, and the "government" is just our "public servants". We put them there to do what we want, not to have them tell us what is good for us. We don't believe God put them there to rule over us, so we "limit" their term in office, since we believe they are "flawed human beings" just like us, no wiser or better than we are.

In a Monarchy, God puts the King/Queen there to tell us what is right. The Monarch sets the standards, upholds the traditions, determines how we shall speak, what we shall wear, how we measure things etc..The King is always right. He has divine wisdom. God grants him the wisdom to rule, to know the difference between right and wrong etc..
So, from God's mouth to the King's ear, and from the King's mouth to the people's ear. That's the order of things. To burn the flag would be to say you don't believe God put the King there for the people's benefit.

In the US politicians act for all sorts of special interests, not necessarily the people's interests. Politicians lie, cheat, steal, deceive, and when they do, the people burn the flag, to say "we the people" who put you there in office "temporarily" disapprove of the work being done "in our name."



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 08:54 AM
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a reply to: everyone

You are conflating state laws that were not constitutionally challenged or ruled on by the Supreme Court with federal law and resultant rulings. Yes..different states had different laws about the flag, then in 68 congress passed a law making flag burning illegal everywhere, that led to a constitutional challenge where the Supreme Court examined the issue and struck down the law, explaining that it was protected as political speech or expression. It was not Illegal to burn a flag prior to 1968, but rather a question mark depending on local laws. Once asked, The Supreme Court settled that question for the nation 40 years ago.



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 08:56 AM
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a reply to: AMPTAH

I am going to say this again just so it sinks in for people. It's basic logic.

The symbol of the flag can not be larger than the philosophy it represents in a just society.

Basic social contract work here folks. Use logic.
Use falsifiability

The US represents personal liberty and private property rights.

You can't morally justify punishing me for burning my own property as free speech.

You can arrest people for starting riots (who may have burned a flag)

You can arrest people for unpermited burning, public endangerment etc.

Not burning their property because it is a symbol.

We don't behead people in town square anymore either. Though a yearly public flogging for some crimes does sound like some better compromise than the current model.



posted on Nov, 30 2016 @ 08:56 AM
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originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: eNumbra
Ah, I see, as long as you perform a magic ritual first, burning a flag is okay.


Well some people consider flag burning disrespectful...I am one of those people.

Best way I could put it is how would you feel if I got a picture of your family and pissed on it and called your mom/wife/daughter a whore in a video i made and it went viral on the interwebs?

When people burn the flag that is the symbol of this country, that's how it makes me feel.



I made it here before I had to just shake my head

I would shrug my shoulders are realize that you acts about pictures and calling my wife a whore speaks far more about how pathetic you are and speaks pretty much nothing about me.

I am a veteran. I heard the greatest piece of discussion on being a soldier, airman, sailor, or marine (yes coasties too)

My Sergeant, when I became a Sergeant he was leaving for Officer Training School. He told me something I will never forget and perfectly explained the First Amendment

"SSgt (my name), you need to remember that any soldier has to be ok with raising the flag on base one day, and can watch a person burn a flag the next day knowing that he supported that right."

Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors, and Marines DO NOT fight for free speech only for certain voices. They fight for free speech for ALL VOICES....period.

Now I will never burn a flag....but I spent my time supporting all of the voices
edit on 30-11-2016 by KyoZero because: (no reason given)



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