Real Aliens? Real Spacecraft? Does the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis Still Hold Water?

a reply to: mirageman

What do I think?

No E.T., all human.

However, there are clandestine nuts and bolts aircraft and spacecraft, and much confusion intentionally encouraged by intelligence communities to preclude adversaries from understanding reliable information about such items.

Knowing about some contemporary technologies, I wouldn't necessarily put appearance of 'merging' and other unusual optical effects as implying a lack of 'nuts and bolts' craft. Human perception can be altered and unusual optical effects created by technology for useful military and intelligence mission, or be a side-effect of other unusual technologies.

Here's a link video...to one of my purported alien pictures, that I sent to the late J. Allen Hynek, about 1 year before he passed away; which also reveals many geoglyphs possibly carved by the E.T. alien.

www.youtube.com...

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

There might be a million sightings a year, globally, if one could factor in the unreported ones, which are probably the great majority of them. But even if you just use the 7000 or so a year reported to NUFORC in the USA.

As I said, I dont have a good feeling for how many are legit. I see numerous posts on this forum for things I wouldnt give a second thought about. I dont want to discourage people from posting, but some are real head scratchers.

The Belgium sightings is just the last one I have complete confidence that the craft reported was seen. There is always the military angle, but seems really unlikely to me, especially the way the one takes off in the Lupin sighting.


The mental projection thing may be the cause of some cases, but do you do really think the Levelland sightings were the result of someone projecting into peoples minds that their engine shut off? What could have possibly been gained by doing so?

If you believe the Shag harbor case is legit, do you really think a crash was projected into peoples minds(along with sonar and radar , then a 2nd craft was projected aiding the first over the course of a few days? Then the crafts fly off and again there are mental projections into peoples mind of 2 UFOs flying away above ground? Do you think all the pictures the divers took came back empty because it was all in the mind?

a reply to: 111DPKING111

Yes. 100% mental projection.

But in some cases the value of local constants of nature are jiggered with, such as the Higgs field, so what starts out as nearly formless affects physical reality just as strongly as conventional physical things.

I've never seen one genuine high strangeness case that was not explained better with this line of thought.

We live in a very small fish tank and can't see the water yet.

Kev

a reply to: mirageman

Well the only "real" good case, is from 1970s, where it involved a police man, that was stopped bye a ufo, (the case really look alike the one in the steven spielberg movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, where the main character is stop and imprinted) but happened 7 years before the movie..

on top of things, we just had a big sighting of a meteor going across the country, where alot of people took photographs and videos.. my point is, if there is indeed "bolts and metal spacecraft flying around" they are hiding really well..

a summary of the police mans case;
it all started on d. August 13, 1970, when police man (Evald Hansen) was on his way home, about 22:50 on a deserted road, his engine just went out. He then saw a strong white light. It was plus very warmly in the car, and it felt like to drive towards the sun.
After a while, the light was sucked up, but did not remember how long that "lightshow" took place. after that he starts to look out of his windshield, he then sees as a silver gray object, which "hangs in the air above me, at the height of a tall tree"

The good thing about this case is that he has taken pictures (I'll try to find them and uplaode them here) plus that he has drawn a sketch. there are three images of the object itself. but as usual in this field, they are not as good clean quality wise ..

the funny thing is that three years after d. August 14, 1973 at around 22:50 Evald again saw a bright light, approximately 6 kilometers of the first observation. (He was at work) and then took three pictures of the object (I'll try to find them)

His assessment was that both UFO, was enormously similar each other, and the description was the classic UFO vehicle of that time; silver gray, with a dome, in the center of a hole where the light can be pulled up, and two dents on each side.

apparently there was radar contact at the first event

Nils krog (radar operator) "that night I was on duty and we had a fixed object over Evald position, more I can not say, except that such observationer was to be kept secret and not talked about"

the more I look into this matter, a lot of new info comes up, soo im gonna stop it here, but i'm gonna keep searching for the photos Evald took

a reply to: mirageman

Great thread as always mate and when it comes to the question of UFO origin then I'd say the ETH does still hold water (after reading books about official internal documentation like 'UFOs and Government' then it's at least on the table anyway).

There's some other pretty freaky close range UFO descriptions here and, whatever the answer, I'm always put in mind of Dr Hynek's three major points about the phenomenon that most people can agree upon - one, that UFO reports not only exist but persist; two, that the phenomenon is global in nature (over 140 countries) and three, that many UFO reports come from highly credible and technically trained people.

Also thought his horse in a bathtub analogy was relevant.

In considering extra-terrestrial intelligence, said Dr. Hynek, we may be putting the cart before the horse. As a humorous example, he added:

"'Speaking of horses, suppose someone comes here and tells us... there is a report of a horse in the bath tub. I think it would be rather pointless to then ask, what is the color of the horse, what does he eat, how could he have gotten there, who who installed the bath tub? The question is, IS there a horse in the bath tub?

Cheers.

a reply to: JOHN60

in my view, this debate of ufo's etc. is entangled with Religion is pure new age, and hasn't brought anything to the table, it is a way to con the people, and to bring the fringe/weird/extremely hard subject of ufo hypothesis "down to earth", and into a world of small visions..

.. so many ufo cults has sprung up, some with sadly deadly outcome, all with the idea of having the ultimate truths about this subject.
.. And here you present an idea, that it is demonic, its just stupid (in my view..) it... or at least present your "ideas" as to why it offer the truth and how it can explain the numerous cases around the world.. Don't just a link to a bad edited cult site.. with proclamation of virgin mary and so on...

please for your own sake Deny ignorance !

originally posted by: karl 12
a reply to: mirageman

Great thread as always mate and when it comes to the question of UFO origin then I'd say the ETH does still hold water (after reading books about official internal documentation like 'UFOs and Government' then it's at least on the table anyway).

There's some other pretty freaky close range UFO descriptions here and, whatever the answer, I'm always put in mind of Dr Hynek's three major points about the phenomenon that most people can agree upon - one, that UFO reports not only exist but persist; two, that the phenomenon is global in nature (over 140 countries) and three, that many UFO reports come from highly credible and technically trained people.

Also thought his horse in a bathtub analogy was relevant.

In considering extra-terrestrial intelligence, said Dr. Hynek, we may be putting the cart before the horse. As a humorous example, he added:

"'Speaking of horses, suppose someone comes here and tells us... there is a report of a horse in the bath tub. I think it would be rather pointless to then ask, what is the color of the horse, what does he eat, how could he have gotten there, who who installed the bath tub? The question is, IS there a horse in the bath tub?

Cheers.

hey karl, thanks for the heads up on that thread, i looked at it some time ago, and forgot it.. now i have a some x-mas reading to do..

a reply to: JoeHansen

Thanks for coming back to me Joe. Maybe when you find the photos you could create whole thread on this.

It is interesting how European UFO cases are much less well known (in the UK anyway). Abduction and cattle mutilations are nowhere near as prevalent on this side of the Atlantic. Although England is "crop circle central".

I don't think that the ETH is an inherently bad hypothesis. But there has been nothing scientific discovered recently that would give it any more or less weight than it always had.

Sure, we now know that there are billions upon billions of planets out there, which could possibly increase the chances of ET life developing somewhere out there. On the other hand, we've also discovered that space in general is an extremely harsh environment not conducive to life, and we still don't know how life came about on Earth, and this makes the odds of any individual planet out there developing life extremely low. Not that it couldn't happen. We know it happened at least once.

But looking over the UFO reports of the past and present, there has never been any single, tiny bit of real, good, hard evidence to suggest that they represent aliens from another planet. None.

In some ways, time travel is a better hypothesis, since there are a number of things that give it more weight than the ET hypothesis. "Aliens" that are humanoid, capable of interacting with people in the Earth environment, the general size of UFOs, etc. Of course, once people start traveling in time, they kind of become "aliens," so I guess it's a distinction without difference.

a reply to: Blue Shift

The problem with 'time travel' is that, unless there is some magic property of the universe we have yet to find, it's even more difficult than space travel from A to B.

The position of everything in the universe moves with time. So you are dealing with some very tricky variables just to calculate anything moving at current known trajectories. The amounts of energy required also seem impossible with our current understanding of physics. But maybe we live in a universe where everything isn't constant and occasionally other universes seep through into our reality.

There is one thing about the time travel explanation that would explain a lot about the UFO phenomenon though. Perhaps these time travellers keep coming back and 'fixing' the timeline. Part of that includes erasing all proof of their real purpose.

a reply to: mirageman

If this timeline is "fixed" then I'd hate to see a broken one.

Kev

a reply to: JoeHansen

That's a good point about the sensationalism.

If it turns out aliens are real, it will probably turn out to be one of those boring realities. More mundane than people hope. Aliens will turn out to be as complex as humans, with deep divisions in their society, muddled motives, ideals, psychology.

Nothing new to offer us, except their propulsion technology. And they won't even want to share that, because it would give us too much power.



That's why I suspect we're only getting visited by tourists. Maybe a few "catch and release" hunters on safari. Or zoo collectors, getting some sperm and eggs for their intergalactic zoo.

Maybe owning a human is kind of like how in the middle ages a nobleman would buy and sell midgets.

a reply to: jamesrobert

Maybe owning a human is kind of like how in the middle ages a nobleman would buy and sell midgets.

News to me. Heard of 'midget-tossing' but never knew they were a traded commodity. Oh, and I believe the correct term is 'dwarf' - 'midget' is so Red Foxx.

a reply to: mirageman

Summarized Reply:


There are people who know, for whatever reason, that there are no UFOs per se, but rather four phenomena which are CONFUSED with "UFOs":

1) Misidentification of natural things (like the planet venus).

2) Misidentification of manmade things (aircraft, satellites)

3) Out and out deception (youtube, Ancient Aliens, cold war and post cold war alphabet agency deception).

4) A generally subtle, substrate-independent, sentient-meme-like intelligence, which interacts with human consciousness and sometimes materializes energy/matter effects, which are perceived as real, solid and nuts and bolts, but is something else completely.

But there are no UFOs like people want there to be, at least not yet. We will probably build them someday and terrorize some primitive culture with them someday.

But even then...with us as "UFO aliens" i imagine that we will get colonizing planets as organic beings out of our system pretty fast, and go for substrate-independent post singularity form.

Then the Unuverse will be relatively quiet again.

I know that it SEEMS vast, but only 5% of the Universe is normal matter/energy.

We are effectively living in the pond scum, that perhaps nobody else has much intetest in.

Kev

originally posted by: BeefNoMeat
a reply to: jamesrobert

Maybe owning a human is kind of like how in the middle ages a nobleman would buy and sell midgets.

News to me. Heard of 'midget-tossing' but never knew they were a traded commodity. Oh, and I believe the correct term is 'dwarf' - 'midget' is so Red Foxx.

Me neither. Heard of dwarf throwing, midget tossing, leprechaun lifting and elf elevation. I think the latter two were in the para-Olympics as well. The paranormal Olympics.

Maybe the aliens have a sport called "human racing" and we just haven't realized it?

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Glad you summarised it!

But there are no UFOs like people want there to be, at least not yet. We will probably build them someday and terrorize some primitive culture with them someday.

This is the one part I actually disagree to some extent about. Although 'in this moment' (to sound like a European football manager) it may be correct. I actually think the ETH is a possibility. But there is no one fits all explanation and there are far too many UFO cases which are attributed to aliens when the evidence does not really support it. Even if popular culture creates the impression that it does.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: Blue Shift
The problem with 'time travel' is that, unless there is some magic property of the universe we have yet to find, it's even more difficult than space travel from A to B.

Certainly, if we're thinking about time as a structured line we physically travel along. However, time is a very tricky concept. I'm leaning more and more towards the idea that time is more like a "context" we perceive and define ourselves in. "Traveling" from one time to another is more a matter of changing our perceptions and context. And this includes every living thing's perceptions, as well as our own personal point of view.

No, there's no good paradigm yet for diassociating ourselves from the present (every cell in our bodies) and then replacing ourselves in a different context. Amplifying and modifying our perceptions of where / when we are.

I also think the universe is full of surprises we haven't discovered yet. Unfortunately, we may not have enough time to figure them out unless we get help from alternate realities, because humanity's time is quickly running out.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: JoeHansen

Thanks for coming back to me Joe. Maybe when you find the photos you could create whole thread on this.

It is interesting how European UFO cases are much less well known (in the UK anyway). Abduction and cattle mutilations are nowhere near as prevalent on this side of the Atlantic. Although England is "crop circle central".

Cattle 'mutilations' are consistent with a program for monitoring emissions of radioisotopes from military testing activities. Cattle gather and concentrate radioisotopes over a wide area of the fields they eat in.