Brain-Scanning Potential Politicians

a reply to: ColdWisdom

Wow...I mean..W O W.

Well articulated and point made. Remind me to not debate you on neuroscience!

a reply to: JinMI

I tried to tell him.

It's all designed to sweep the populace into the dustpan of another's control.

a reply to: anotherside

That's probably the most elegant & simplified way to sum up my argument.

Again, reading through this thread, I am reminded of this story:

A Neuroscientist Uncovers A Dark Secret

About four years ago, Fallon made a startling discovery. It happened during a conversation with his then 88-year-old mother, Jenny, at a family barbecue.

"I said, 'Jim, why don't you find out about your father's relatives?' " Jenny Fallon recalls. "I think there were some cuckoos back there."

Fallon investigated.

"There's a whole lineage of very violent people — killers," he says.

One of his direct great-grandfathers, Thomas Cornell, was hanged in 1667 for murdering his mother. That line of Cornells produced seven other alleged murderers, including Lizzy Borden. "Cousin Lizzy," as Fallon wryly calls her, was accused (and controversially acquitted) of killing her father and stepmother with an ax in Fall River, Mass., in 1882.

Anyone up to date on their neuroscience research should be familiar with this story. And I will add my disclaimer that I am not even suggesting that this personal experiment performed by this scientist is even legitimate. I only provide this as evidence that the same science touted in the OP that's being used to suggest mandatory brainscans is also being used here to debunk the claim that physical brain matter can be used to accurately predict behavior in a person.

"Here is a brain that's not normal," he says. There are patches of yellow and red. Then he points to another section of the brain, in the front part of the brain, just behind the eyes.

"Look at that — there's almost nothing here," Fallon says.

This is the orbital cortex, the area that Fallon and other scientists believe is involved with ethical behavior, moral decision-making and impulse control.

"People with low activity [in the orbital cortex] are either free-wheeling types or sociopaths," he says.

If you haven't familiarized yourself with this case yet, you can still probably guess where this is going.

Fallon says nobody in his family has real problems with those behaviors. But he wanted to be sure. Conveniently, he had everything he needed: Previously, he had persuaded 10 of his close relatives to submit to a PET brain scan and give a blood sample as part of a project to see whether his family had a risk for developing Alzheimer's disease.

"And I took a look at my own PET scan and saw something disturbing that I did not talk about," he says.

What he didn't want to reveal was that his orbital cortex looks inactive.

"If you look at the PET scan, I look just like one of those killers."

Fallon cautions that this is a young field. Scientists are just beginning to study this area of the brain — much less the brains of criminals. Still, he says the evidence is accumulating that some people's brains predispose them toward violence and that psychopathic tendencies may be passed down from one generation to another.

And wouldn't you know it, he has no violent past, no aggressive behavior (reportedly), no real visceral connection to the actions committed by his ancestors other than his DNA.

Society simply cannot outlaw parts of the brain because they are overactive or underdeveloped. That is so ignorant and naive, and it will only pave the way for the subversion of our society.

And I have a slight suspicion that this thread has a hidden political agenda. I've been trying to address the science here. If you're going to make a thread about Trump do so by putting his name in the title so I know not to click on the thread.

a reply to: ColdWisdom

I appreciate all your input.

Thank you for this.

a reply to: ColdWisdom

Any interpretation of that measured physical data is an abstract construct which in psychology is referred to as the mind, and is inherently and purely subjective in its nature.

And why is that a problem? Do you get that your subjectivity has qualia? And that the qualia of this subjectivity corresponds to functional processes?

"But do you not think that sociopaths are inferior? Do you not think that sociopaths should be systematically removed from society?"

Where did I say sociopaths should be systematically removed from society? I didn't say that.

You however seem to think that a person incapable of feeling other peoples emotions would be able to perform the inherently selfless duties of becoming a democratically elected official. Furthermore: since elected officials run on the premise of being able to perform such duties, it matter very much that they be honest, dependable, and not interested in manipulating people to enrich himself and his friends.

It's very simple. Evidently, this subject hits a soft-spot within you, because, well....

As it exists, psychosis is purely theoretical, as is the entirety of behavioral psychology. Its definition relies on observer/interpreter methods that are inherently subjective.

Again - a science of correlation takes the qualia of subjectivity, and correlates them with the functional processes of matter moving through your brain. There IS a correlation - however much you dislike it, the field continues to grow, and phenomenology continues to wed itself with neuroscience. For instance, a common truism in the field is that mental processes correspond to metabolic time-scales - an assumption that has been empirically validated again and again in neurodynamics.

There have been many astounding correlations observed in the physical brain as it relates to matter.

Huh? Do you want to read that over again? The brain - which is made of matter - correlates to "matter"? Clearly, this is beyond your ken - but evidently you don't care about that. So long as people have trouble understanding my posts, maybe yours will seem just as true? Hmm?

Any attempt to extract that data and formulate it into behavioral theory is an exercise in behavioral psychology, not neuroscience

You know, we can go at this all day. It's perfectly acceptable - and legitimate - to draw a correlation to mental function when the correlations are consistent. When they are consistent, they are dependable. When they are dependable, they are useful to screen out dishonest people who will work their darndest to craft intellectual explanations for why this "isn't fair". Yet its perfectly fair. However much you pretend to the opposite, you can never read as many books as I have in this field without spending the years I have in fact spent studying neuroscience. I mention this only to make apparent for others that correlation between neurological structure and functional connection is being correlated to subjective phenomenology. As the compendium grows, its only a matter of time before it becomes sensible to mandate fMRI scans ONLY for people aspiring to government positions, and not for the public.

Your use of NLP, neurolinguistic programming, is to frame that question in such a way as to automatically imply that a sociopath even exists at all. Some better questions would be:

Wow. It just amazes me to what extent you will stoop in an argument. Now, sociopaths don't even exist, even though their brains reveal a tell-tale signature, and even though - for non-sociopaths, sociopaths remain the primary source of the "traumatizing narcissist" in our societies.

They are inferior for positions that entail feeling - care. Most humans will understand the rationale to this - and hopefully, most people will have enough moral sanity to see that whatever you are - or doing - is just straight up fishing for ways to obscure the much more natural logic being used in this thread.

So at this point I have to wonder. Are you really that naive to believe that what we think we know as a sociopath can be physically rooted out and systematically removed from society?

lol. Again with this "rooting out". Rooting out of positions of power, yes. It's as if power - and power alone - were the sole desire of a sociopath. It may be the biggest one - hence, the need to weed them out of positions of power; but as a Human being, they have every right taht anyone else has - minus a position taht they are structurally and functionally unable to perform without - as probably currently exists - dominating the system with people who function just like them.

Donald Trump is not a Sociopath in no different a way than Barrack Obama was intent on destroying the United States because he was secretly involved with extremist. Donald Trump is a Salesman and an Actor that based upon his input during the election probably, based his comments on statistical analysis evaluated by Industrial Psychologist.

The problem and to a lesser degree with others who have run for that office, when a person runs for President of the United States. They do not have access the level of Classified Information that the position entails.

The problem with the way your defining "Antisocial Personality Disorder DSM-5 301.7 (F60.2)" by relating it to Politian's is that it is an incorrect assessment of the Personality Disorder in question. Sociopaths do not care about anyone or anything and to be clear it does not make a person with such a Diagnosis inferior.

Personality Disorders, Neuroses and Psychosis are a way to cope with the Environment that are potentially genetically based due to Environmental with emphasis upon Sociological requirements related to History

In this case say for example there was a Natural Disaster that occurred upon a Global Scale where Billions have died.

Sociopaths in relation to such conditions would have much better chance of surviving that most others.

In relation to the human race they are a kind of anchor in relation to survival of the species.

The idea that one can look at a human brain and diagnose a condition perfectly is actually absurd given current technology. While the research which of course was funded seems relevant to your OP it is more about individualswho go to extremes with respect to violent acts. In example a criminal breaks into a home, whose human residents are not their and encounters a very angry and very large dog. A sociopath would simply kill the dog by shooting it, or having planned his break-in prepared for such a contingency in a non-lethal way.

What an individual with Anti-social personality would probably do is inappropriate to discuss in this forum.

Further despite the fact that people can and do take advantage of situations does not make then Sociopaths.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

a reply to: Kashai

In this case say for example there was a Natural Disaster that occurred upon a Global Scale where Billions have died.

Sociopaths in relation to such conditions would have much better chance of surviving that most others.

In relation to the human race they are a kind of anchor in relation to survival of the species.

That thought had been lingering in the back of my mind, also. I began contemplating what role a sociopath plays in our evolution due to survival mechanisms that tend to favor those who's emotional consideration does not interfere with their lifelong battle for survival.

Very interesting point you made, there.

a reply to: ColdWisdom


Consider the idea that prior to industrialization and in order to maintain a clean environment in cities, towns and so on instead of machines people did the work. They worked for 16 hrs. a day and due to medical technology at the time died in there 40's. The requirements of there employment favored the obsessive, and a potential result of that environmentalcondition was Obsessive/Compulsive disorder.

With respect to modern technology we do not need people to work that way but the effect in relation to the time line in question, has resulted in Obsessive/Compulsive Personality Disorder.

By the age at which in the past those diagnosed accordingly would die.

This is when in relation to their situation they often experience the Depressive phase of the condition.

To be clear that issue would not simply translate just to those involved in menial labor given the conditions in question.

In relation to the political nature of this thread, I did not vote for Donald Trump.