Utopian future will not work

a reply to: TerryDon79

Of course there is.

I am a resource. My maintenance requires me to do more than absorb nutrition and lay about the house all day. My body requires effort to be expended, muscles used for productive purpose (I disagree with exercise for its own sake. A man ought to sweat only to produce an result which is greater than the sum of the exercise he did and its benefit to the body. Gyms are anathema to my soul for this reason). The only reason a man ought to sweat, other than in the doing of a body of work, is if he finds himself in the throes of passion.

Whether it be the creation of a new device, or the fixing of an old one, whether it be the tilling of a field for my own crops, or assisting with civic works, effort is necessary to the body as surely as taking on nutrients are, and because I am a resource myself, of experience, knowledge, philosophy and above all, love, I will be necessary in his life until I am no longer living. Regardless of where he goes, or what he does, the knowledge that I will be attendant to him when he requires it of me, will give him strength and assurance in all the years that remain to me.

For this reason, effort to maintain my body and mind by the doing of useful works, will always be necessary, even if earning money is not. There are MANY things which would earn me no money, but involve physical effort, that I would be doing if I did not have a responsibility to earn money every day of my life. I would build shelters for the poor, aid in distributing food, medicine and human compassion to those who have seen little of it, renovate damaged or poorly maintained buildings to increase the number of livable homes in my area, put my mind to the challenges the human race faces, and devise potential solutions...

originally posted by: eNumbra
Because nobody does that now?

Maybe you do, but I sure as hell do not.

originally posted by: Bone75
And like I said, you're drastically outnumbered.

I am willing to take my chances.

I'm going to estimate your age at 35 and ask you a serious question...

Would you shovel sh!t for the next 15 years if it meant that no one else in this country would ever have to shovel sh!t again? If it meant the end of homelessness, poverty, starvation?

No, because people do not appreciate things if they have not earned them for themselves. Granted there are people who could not ever do for themselves because of physical issues and that is not who I am referring to, I would gladly help them. But the able bodied? They need to have skin in the game too.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: InachMarbank

Not necessarily. People could be forced into a utopia through majority vote or some disaster that forces people to work together for a short time to save the planet.

There's quite a few utopia scenarios where it doesn't have to be mutually agreed on, but then you can argue (as I have) that then it's not utopia.

I think a utopia would need to be established through some kind of consensual practice (inter industry negotiations, seen and voted on by public, whoever chooses to vote and participate in such processes that is)

I'm not sure inter industry negotiations are really seen by the public today...

I think you may have a valid point that some kind of black swan may need to force people to work together, to figure out inter industry negotiations.

I think money is a way to hide inter industry negotiations.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: eNumbra
Because nobody does that now?

Maybe you do, but I sure as hell do not.

Touched a nerve? Zero need to make it or take it personal.

originally posted by: eNumbra
Touched a nerve? Zero need to make it or take it personal.

Not at all, and anyone who aspires to be mundane is not someone I would care to be around.

a reply to: TerryDon79

I agree with the OP: Utopia will never happen.

First of all people would need to agree on the definition of utopia, and being so 'humanly flawed' as we are, that won't be achieved. For example, Hitler's definition of utopia is certainly not mine.

Second, we work for 'compensation', whatever that may be (money, our kids wellbeing, fame, etc). That compensation is our personal motivation and yes, without motivation there won't be any internal push to work. If I was to get all I have now for free I most definitely wouldn't work the crazy amount of unsociable hours I work right now. I love my job and I probably still do it, but only when it's convenient to me.

I also don't see how the world could function without people working. If robots would do all the horrible jobs (as somebody suggested) we would still need people to check on them, to make sure they are functioning properly and they are completing their tasks correctly.

originally posted by: Agartha
First of all people would need to agree on the definition of utopia, and being so 'humanly flawed' as we are, that won't be achieved. For example, Hitler's definition of utopia is certainly not mine.

I think that is a critical aspect. Utopia is a transcendental concept, it really cannot be defined or achieved, like trying to picture and then become infinite.

It is a great thought experiment but it is no way practical or attainable.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: eNumbra
Touched a nerve? Zero need to make it or take it personal.

Not at all, and anyone who aspires to be mundane is not someone I would care to be around.

Nobody here aspires to be mundane - attempting to make the best world possible for all human beings is probably the exact opposite of that.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
I think that is a critical aspect. Utopia is a transcendental concept, it really cannot be defined or achieved, like trying to picture and then become infinite.

It is a great thought experiment but it is no way practical or attainable.

Definitely not attainable. We are all so different and we usually tend to socialize with people that are 'similar' to us, similar in personal values and beliefs, and our ideas of an ideal world are influenced by those personal principles.

Could we achieve utopia without abolishing all world religions? I don't think so.

originally posted by: eNumbra
Nobody here aspires to be mundane - attempting to make the best world possible for all human beings is probably the exact opposite of that.

I would beg to differ. Outlining how if you do X amount of work, which is the same as everyone else, you too can have a super vanilla rest of your life just like your neighbors.

a reply to: eNumbra

Because nobody does that now?

I think what people can't see about community while they're in it is that without it they're nothing. Being a part of a community is more important than almost anything. Even for loners. We all contribute when we can in ways that you might not be seeing

Existing without contributing happens. We could argue all day about how good or bad that is for the individual

Humans need to contribute - and as someone that has had a lot of what could be considered menial jobs I have to tell you - working is good for you

Always better than not

What's not good for people is not having access to work, or being able to enjoy the possiblility of progress. Education, jobs - a shot at a livable wage. The freedom to be who you are and earn your own way

Replicators need not apply

originally posted by: Agartha
Could we achieve utopia without abolishing all world religions? I don't think so.

Certainly there is that but there are also many other human constructs that would have to go and most of them never will because that is what makes us human. Why would anyone want to live in a world with billions of like minded conformists?

The utopia being described sounds frightening.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
I would beg to differ. Outlining how if you do X amount of work, which is the same as everyone else, you too can have a super vanilla rest of your life just like your neighbors.

That is word for word, exactly how you can describe the world as it currently is.

originally posted by: eNumbra
That is word for word, exactly how you can describe the world as it currently is.

Not one of my neighbors is the same as or has identical aspirations to the others. I am not sure where you live but it certainly does not sound like reality.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Not one of my neighbors is the same as or has identical aspirations to the others. I am not sure where you live but it certainly does not sound like reality.

How would living in an automated utopian world, change peoples aspirations to be uniform, exactly?

originally posted by: eNumbra
How would living in an automated utopian world, change peoples aspirations to be uniform, exactly?

Describe your automated utopian world first.

I haven't seen the obvious stated,

In order for a Utopia to work, corporations would have to give up their control.

I don't know about you, but over the course of my short life so far, I haven't seen companies / corps giving up power and caring more about their customers. I see them outbidding and overshadowing the smaller business solution, pander to the consumer's obsession on savings ( since their so broke to begin with ) and more behaviors that will only evolve into worse habits towards us ( treating us more like cattle than equal people buying their produces which is doing them the favor ).

Simply put, why would a few groups of people give up having power and control over the rest of us? That's why utopia won't work, these people at the top have no desire for that to ever take place, since that would mean they'd have to be considered equal.

In fact there is so much " side taking " going on, that I'm not 100% sure that the majority of people on this planet would want equality for all. Amazingly and sadly enough, we seem even too divided for people to get past us all having our own opinions and perceptions to see that despite those differences they are one in the same and we are stronger together than ever apart.

I think humanity in it's entirety is still too dumb to understand the true power of equality and united intentions, not that it won't happen, but we're still growing as a people and need to get past some basics still.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: eNumbra
How would living in an automated utopian world, change peoples aspirations to be uniform, exactly?

Describe your automated utopian world first.

Automation through robotics and AI has taken over the entirety or vast majority of the labor force. There would still be human doctors, lawyers, politicians, and similar - but to humans, service, manufacturing, and general labor jobs would be dead. The majority of the world simply wouldn't be employable because Robotics would simply be better/cheaper. A world like this would have had to change to accommodate this; basic income and health care would be provided for. If it wasn't, well there are numerous sci-fi movies and novels we could cite - but with the majority of the world unemployed and living in abject poverty a bloody revolution would eventually happen.

With all basic needs provided for (shelter, health, and nourishment) people would be free to pursue what interests them, whether it's designing new Robotics, creating art, exploring the world (or other worlds) or any of the other, you know, those aspirations that people have now but don't always have the time for.

Aside:
If anyone wants to point out that this isn't a book definition of Utopia, yeah, that's because it is. We already agreed that a "Utopia" isn't obtainable - which would bring me to a question I asked myself when I first read the OP. (The hell was even the point of this thread The unobtainable is unobtainable. yeah, thanks Plato.

a reply to: eNumbra

which would bring me to a question I asked myself when I first read the OP. (The hell was even the point of this thread The unobtainable is unobtainable. yeah, thanks Plato.

Why not? I find the subject interesting, regardless of obtainability.