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Erik Verlinde says no need for Dark Matter and Gravity is emergent

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posted on Nov, 14 2016 @ 11:19 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic

S&F for making a thread that isn't political and for getting my brain juices flowing.

One part of Mr. Verlinde's quote caught my attention:


gravity is not a fundamental force of nature, but an emergent phenomenon. In the same way that temperature arises from the movement of microscopic particles, gravity emerges from the changes of fundamental bits of information, stored in the very structure of spacetime.


I'm curious to know how Gravity & Information are interconnected.




posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 12:49 AM
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originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
If that were to be true, who or what is projecting the hologram and where did they come from? Not convinced!


Well obviously if we don't know something the answer is always God. Jesting. But honestly some of this stuff is definitely beyond what i know but it'll definitely start some brain action so thanks.

Also wanted to thank Arbitrageur for the ask any physics questions thread he started a long time ago. It'll take me a while to go through but i learned a lot.


And speaking of God due to the smartypants but awesome answer about the cat in a box being both dead and alive at the same time "dead after 3 months" I think i found an answer to the question "Can God make a rock so big that even he can't lift it?"
He/she/it just keeps making the rock bigger forever therefore never needing to lift it. But that's unprovable anyway you slice it.



posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 11:25 AM
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What happened to the Higgs Boson?



posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic


So if gravity is emergent, like temperature is, that means it must be emergent from something. But from what? This is where Verlinde borrows from the holographic principle. His theory suggests that gravity is emergent from fundamental bits of information that are stored in the fabric of spacetime itself.

In some sense this is already what General Relativity says. Gravity emerges from the properties of curved space-time, the detection of gravity waves makes that clear. Mass causes space-time to curve, and mass is made from particles, which can be described with bits of information according to quantum mechanics. It's also interesting to note that gravity affects the rate at which time flows, such that time flows slower near large objects, as if slowed down by reality to compensate for the intense computations performed in that region of space.
edit on 15/11/2016 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 05:29 PM
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originally posted by: ColdWisdom
a reply to: neoholographic

S&F for making a thread that isn't political and for getting my brain juices flowing.

One part of Mr. Verlinde's quote caught my attention:


gravity is not a fundamental force of nature, but an emergent phenomenon. In the same way that temperature arises from the movement of microscopic particles, gravity emerges from the changes of fundamental bits of information, stored in the very structure of spacetime.


I'm curious to know how Gravity & Information are interconnected.


Good questions and I think Verlinde might be on the way to a Nobel Peace Prize in Physics. His theory has huge consequences not just for our understanding of Gravity but also our understanding the nature of what we call reality. Here's an older article which explains these things well.


A few month’s ago, Erik Verlinde at the the University of Amsterdam put forward one such idea which has taken the world of physics by storm. Verlinde suggested that gravity is merely a manifestation of entropy in the Universe. His idea is based on the second law of thermodynamics, that entropy always increases over time. It suggests that differences in entropy between parts of the Universe generates a force that redistributes matter in a way that maximises entropy. This is the force we call gravity.


www.technologyreview.com...

This is very simple and profound. I remember saying a few years back that low entropy states like earth and life on earth may exist because as the universe expands, low entropy states help to maximise entropy in the universe. So the universe is constantly trying to maximise entropy as the universe expands. This is also connected to information. A state of maximum entropy contains a maximum amount of information for that volume of space.

When you open a deck of cards, they're all in order and this would be seen as a low entropy state which doesn't contain a lot of information. This is because there isn't any way to order the cards that would put the deck in a lower entropy state. If you were to play 52 pickup though and you have cards scattered across the floor, those cards are in a high entropy state and contain alot of information because it's many ways you can order the cards that will lower entropy.

So what he's saying is that this information is used to try and maximise the entropy of the universe as it expands and it generates a force that redistributes matter in a way to maximise entropy according to this information. This force he calls Gravity.


But perhaps the most powerful idea to emerge from Verlinde’s approach is that gravity is essentially a phenomenon of information.

Today, this idea gets a useful boost from Jae-Weon Lee at Jungwon University in South Korea and a couple of buddies. They use the idea of quantum information to derive a theory of gravity and they do it taking a slightly different tack to Verlinde.

At the heart of their idea is the tricky question of what happens to information when it enters a black hole. Physicists have puzzled over this for decades with little consensus. But one thing they agree on is Landauer’s principle: that erasing a bit of quantum information always increases the entropy of the Universe by a certain small amount and requires a specific amount of energy.

Jae-Weon and co assume that this erasure process must occur at the black hole horizon. And if so, spacetime must organise itself in a way that maximises entropy at these horizons. In other words, it generates a gravity-like force.

It also relates gravity to quantum information for the first time. Over recent years many results in quantum mechanics have pointed to the increasingly important role that information appears to play in the Universe.

Some physicists are convinced that the properties of information do not come from the behaviour of information carriers such as photons and electrons but the other way round. They think that information itself is the ghostly bedrock on which our universe is built.


Just WOW!

This actually lends support to life after death. This is evidence that there's a part of you that can exist independent of the particles that make up your body.

Think abou that!

For years, people have been saying when the material body dies then your just dead because there's nothing that can exist outside of the material body. This says otherwise.

It says the information that describes you and me and makes us distinct down to our brains is preserved. It can exists independent of the particles that it's describing in it's exact form.

This has to just blow your mind. This ties to the quantum mind. Hameroff says it's quantum information that becomes disentangled from the brain and is the soul. When you think about NDE's people talk about looking at things from a non local point of view vs a local view. This could be because at death, the information that stored in the quantum mind which is entangled with the material brain is no longer entangled.



posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur

A lot of the latest generations of telescopes are built to detect signals that humans can't perceive directly, such as radio, infrared, X-ray etc.

Right, so indirectly then
To assimilate and understand the data we are still invoking sensory input in our brains. I took from the member I was responding to that the context he was using 'perception' would include even that indirect means. It came across as though our trust of scientific observations is problematic simply because we observe them. Seemed like a veiled attempt at suggesting truth was only attained through some supernatural means. *shrug*
edit on 15-11-2016 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 06:33 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic



Parallel Universes
Max Tegmark Dept. of Physics, Univ. of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104; max@physics.upenn.edu (January 23 2003.)

Abstract: I survey physics theories involving parallel universes, which form a natural four-level hierarchy of multiverses allowing progressively greater diversity. Level I: A generic prediction of inflation is an infinite ergodic universe, which contains Hubble volumes realizing all initial conditions — including an identical copy of you about 10 to the power10 to the power 29 m away. Level II: In chaotic inflation, other thermalized regions may have different physical constants, dimensionality and particle content. Level III: In unitary quantum mechanics, other branches of the wave function add nothing qualitatively new, which is ironic given that this level has historically been the most controversial. Level IV: Other mathematical structures give different fundamental equations of physics. The key question is not whether parallel universes exist (Level I is the uncontroversial cosmological concordance model), but how many levels there are. I discuss how multiverse models can be falsified and argue that there is a severe “measure problem” that must be solved to make testable predictions at levels II-IV.[/ex


space.mit.edu...



The ΛCDM (Lambda cold dark matter) or Lambda-CDM model is a parametrization of the Big Bang cosmological model in which the universe contains a cosmological constant, denoted by Lambda (Greek Λ), associated with dark energy, and cold dark matter (abbreviated CDM). It is frequently referred to as the standard model of Big Bang cosmology because it is the simplest model that provides a reasonably good account of the following properties of the cosmos:

the existence and structure of the cosmic microwave background

the large-scale structure in the distribution of galaxies

the abundances of hydrogen (including deuterium), helium, and lithium

the accelerating expansion of the universe observed in the light from distant galaxies and supernovae

The model assumes that general relativity is the correct theory of gravity on cosmological scales. It emerged in the late 1990s as a concordance cosmology, after a period of time when disparate observed properties of the universe appeared mutually inconsistent, and there was no consensus on the makeup of the energy density of the universe.

The ΛCDM model can be extended by adding cosmological inflation, quintessence and other elements that are current areas of speculation and research in cosmology.

Some alternative models challenge the assumptions of the ΛCDM model. Examples of these are modified Newtonian dynamics, modified gravity and theories of large-scale variations in the matter density of the universe.[1]


en.wikipedia.org...

Why did the chicken cross the road?


Considering the above in its entirety one can consider a complexity where indicated in its entirety, reflects another point of view. One that reflects another perspective akin to each of us equal in scope, with respect to individual consciousness as to a facet in a diamond. One that incorporates not only the perspectives related to the electron cloud but where this issue of separation of states due to separation by distance as within the perspective of one "facet". Is in and of itself expressed as a separation that due to quantum mechanics is also applicable to the person in relation to 10 dimensions.










edit on 15-11-2016 by Kashai because: Content edit



posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 06:41 PM
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If one takes the string theory to mean that we inhabit 11 dimensions and only perceive 4 of them (space + time) then I'm certain that someone in the higher dimensions would indeed see us as something akin to 2 dimensional constructs.



posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 06:54 PM
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What happened to the Higgs Boson?
is it dead?
What the hell IS CERN up to anyways?......



posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 08:34 PM
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In so far as how time is expressed at the scale of atoms for the sake of argument. There is a difference from how it could be understood in such an expression as opposed to common expressions as in the day to day.

In relation to quantum consciousness the implications are that from a frame of reference that would incorporate such an orientation, time would be perceived as different and more so as a physical expression than what the common senses offer.


edit on 15-11-2016 by Kashai because: Added content



posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 11:24 PM
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The Multiverse Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics

Raphael Boussoa and Leonard Susskind

Center for Theoretical Physics, Department of Physics University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720, U.S.A. b Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, CA 94720, U.S.A. c Stanford Institute for Theoretical Physics and Department of Physics, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305, U.S.A.

Abstract: We argue that the many-worlds of quantum mechanics and the many worlds of the multiverse are the same thing, and that the multiverse is necessary to give exact operational meaning to probabilistic predictions from quantum mechanics. Decoherence—the modern version of wave-function collapse—is subjective in that it depends on the choice of a set of unmonitored degrees of freedom, the “environment”. In fact decoherence is absent in the complete description of any region larger than the future light-cone of a measurement event. However, if one restricts to the causal diamond—the largest region that can be causally probed—then the boundary of the diamond acts as a one-way membrane and thus provides a preferred choice of environment. We argue that the global multiverse is a representation of the many-worlds (all possible decoherent causal diamond histories) in a single geometry. We propose that it must be possible in principle to verify quantum-mechanical predictions exactly. This requires not only the existence of exact observables but two additional postulates: a single observer within the universe can access infinitely many identical experiments; and the outcome of each experiment must be completely definite. In causal diamonds with finite surface area, holographic entropy bounds imply that no exact observables exist, and both postulates fail: experiments cannot be repeated infinitely many times; and decoherence is not completely irreversible, so outcomes are not definite. We argue that our postulates can be satisfied in “hats” (supersymmetric multiverse regions with vanishing cosmological constant).

We propose a complementarity principle that relates the approximate observables associated with finite causal diamonds to exact observables in the hat.


arxiv.org...

Further reading...

homepages.wmich.edu...


edit on 15-11-2016 by Kashai because: Content edit



posted on Nov, 15 2016 @ 11:41 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic


When you open a deck of cards, they're all in order and this would be seen as a low entropy state which doesn't contain a lot of information. This is because there isn't any way to order the cards that would put the deck in a lower entropy state. If you were to play 52 pickup though and you have cards scattered across the floor, those cards are in a high entropy state and contain alot of information because it's many ways you can order the cards that will lower entropy.


That's a very interesting analogy, however, I fail to see how a deck of cards fresh out of the box somehow contains less entropy simply because of its order. It still contains all the elements to create the disorder that is generated from throwing them up into the air and letting them fall onto the floor. And even then, the arrangement of the cards once fallen only appears to be lacking order because the order we observe when the deck is fresh out of the box itself is a psychological construct that we attribute to it.... blah blah I'm rambling. I get the analogy! I'm just nit picky like that I guess.

It would be interesting to see or read a discourse on subjective entropy.


So what he's saying is that this information is used to try and maximise the entropy of the universe as it expands and it generates a force that redistributes matter in a way to maximise entropy according to this information. This force he calls Gravity.


Now that, while being merely a hypothesis, carries with it some very abstract implications in the field of quantum mechanics that I am really looking forward to hearing more about.

Thanks again for the thread, friend!

I linked this thread in a text message to my physicist friend at NIST in Maryland, I am awaiting his response and I shall share it when it arrives.


edit on 11/15/2016 by ColdWisdom because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2016 @ 03:02 AM
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"Entropy is subjective because its measurements depends upon the instruments rather than any fundamental properties of the substance".

necsi.edu...

edit on 16-11-2016 by Kashai because: Content edit



posted on Nov, 17 2016 @ 06:50 AM
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This is/was a tantalizing idea for quite a while. That gravity, like superconductivity, is not a reductionist fundamental phenomenon, but rather a phenomenon that emerges from the interaction of many-particle systems sounds plausible at the outset.


However, it is inconsistent with current experimental data:

Neutron gravitational bound states invalidate entropic gravity model



posted on Nov, 17 2016 @ 12:34 PM
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a reply to: Diablos

You said:

However, it is inconsistent with current experimental data:

No it's not and that's a paper from 2011 that was answered by Verlinde. There will always be questions and challenges and there should be there's still questions about SR and GR as well as quantum mechanics but every question doesn't mean a theory is refuted this is just the scientific process.

This is why support for this idea is growing and Verlinde just updated his findings and it shows from the basic idea of information theory you can derive the exact equations of GR and also get Newton's laws of gravity. This also ties into the entropy of entanglement and it's growing connection to gravity.

So questions have been asked and they should be because this is the scientific process but nothing has been refuted.



posted on Nov, 17 2016 @ 01:08 PM
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originally posted by: ColdWisdom
a reply to: neoholographic


When you open a deck of cards, they're all in order and this would be seen as a low entropy state which doesn't contain a lot of information. This is because there isn't any way to order the cards that would put the deck in a lower entropy state. If you were to play 52 pickup though and you have cards scattered across the floor, those cards are in a high entropy state and contain alot of information because it's many ways you can order the cards that will lower entropy.


That's a very interesting analogy, however, I fail to see how a deck of cards fresh out of the box somehow contains less entropy simply because of its order. It still contains all the elements to create the disorder that is generated from throwing them up into the air and letting them fall onto the floor. And even then, the arrangement of the cards once fallen only appears to be lacking order because the order we observe when the deck is fresh out of the box itself is a psychological construct that we attribute to it.... blah blah I'm rambling. I get the analogy! I'm just nit picky like that I guess.

It would be interesting to see or read a discourse on subjective entropy.


So what he's saying is that this information is used to try and maximise the entropy of the universe as it expands and it generates a force that redistributes matter in a way to maximise entropy according to this information. This force he calls Gravity.


Now that, while being merely a hypothesis, carries with it some very abstract implications in the field of quantum mechanics that I am really looking forward to hearing more about.

Thanks again for the thread, friend!

I linked this thread in a text message to my physicist friend at NIST in Maryland, I am awaiting his response and I shall share it when it arrives.



Thanks for the response.

The deck of cards out of the pack is in a lower entropy state and one way to look at this is through the information needed to describe a deck of cards right out of the pack and the information needed to describe a deck of cards that's shuffled.

You can write a simple program describing the deck of cards right out of the pack. You just need things like the order of the cards and the suit of the cards to describe the deck.

Information needed to describe a shuffled deck of cards goes up and even more so with cards scattered across the room. This is because there isn't any order you can simply describe or sequence of the suits of the cards like you can with a deck of cards out of the pack.

I also agree, the universe maximising entropy as space expands has very interesting implications.



posted on Nov, 17 2016 @ 05:21 PM
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originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
Seemed like a veiled attempt at suggesting truth was only attained through some supernatural means. *shrug*
Seemed that way, I agree. The problem with that kind of personal truth is that it can be different for everybody so it's not any kind of universal truth, which is what science seeks to achieve with experiments that can be replicated by anybody. Everybody doing scientific experiments should get the same results, which doesn't happen with the "truths" of different users of ayahuasca.


originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: Diablos
No it's not and that's a paper from 2011 that was answered by Verlinde.
Exactly what answer are you talking about? That paper was an answer to Verlinde's answer to a previous paper criticizing his idea.

Here's the answer I found from Verlinde which is lame because it says he hasn't really explained his idea well in the first place, which is part of the problem:

Entropic Gravity Getting Messy?

Verlinde is quick in his reaction:

"Kobakhidze puts things too simple."

He continues:

"I admit that I have not been very precise in my article. The whole argument presented was heuristic after all."
Verlinde's own comments about his own idea are some of the most problematic, such as that where he is saying that he hasn't defined his idea very precisely and his other comment that he doesn't really have a theory.

Then when other people try to criticize his fuzzy idea he can claim that's not what he meant but I think he needs to be more precise about exactly what he does mean, exactly the things he is saying he hasn't done such as in the response above.


originally posted by: Snippythehorse
What happened to the Higgs Boson?
is it dead?
What the hell IS CERN up to anyways?......
Good question for a thread about the Higgs boson and CERN. Not such a good question for this thread which is not about the Higgs boson or CERN.

edit on 20161117 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Nov, 17 2016 @ 05:35 PM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur

You said:

However, it is inconsistent with current experimental data:

Sadly, you just quoted one part of what he said then added your own context. Here's what he said:

Verlinde: "An important ingredient is that the timescale of the microscopic dynamics needs to be much faster than the macroscopic movements. That is to say, the macroscopic movements should not induce any quantum traditions between the microscopic states."

"It appears that when one applies this reasoning to gravitation, the result is that the timescale of the fast dynamics is determined by the red shift. At gravitational horizons the separation of time scales will break down, and the system will become truly thermodynamic."

"An interesting point is that in the Born-Oppenheimer approximation the next order correction to the adiabatic ['slow macro-dynamics'] approximation is given by a magnetic force resulting from the Berry Phase. This causes vector potentials to appear. I believe this to be at the basis of further emergent phenomena. I can't tell you more at this stage. You have to wait till my next article is out."


Like I said, answered and Verlinde has made his case even stronger since then. You can't take a paper from 2011 and say look it refutes what Verlinde is saying when it doesn't in any way, shape or form.

There will be questions and there should be and there has been. Like I said, this was back in 2011 and has been answered and the updates from Verlinde have made an even stronger case.



posted on Nov, 17 2016 @ 05:59 PM
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originally posted by: Kashai
"Entropy is subjective because its measurements depends upon the instruments rather than any fundamental properties of the substance".

necsi.edu...


Thanks!



posted on Nov, 17 2016 @ 06:15 PM
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a reply to: neoholographic


The deck of cards out of the pack is in a lower entropy state and one way to look at this is through the information needed to describe a deck of cards right out of the pack and the information needed to describe a deck of cards that's shuffled.


Ah. So then by that logic information is reliant on observation, thus intrinsically linking information to human perception or rather consciousness.

That single aspect of entropy brings QM into the equation.

So... We have to look at it, observe it, and be consciously aware of it in order for it to possess efficacious information that can interact with/affect us in (the illusion) of objective reality? I have a hard time accepting this.

An apple that has fallen onto my head from a tree still contains information that has causal effects, whether I observed it or not. Information has some kind of interconnectedness to matter in that respect, one that is independent of (human) consciousness.

This is making my head hurt in great ways!



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