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My plea to both those on the left, and the right. (Especially on the left today, though.)

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posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 12:55 AM
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This is not the political mud pit. Please converse accordingly.

Further Disclaimer: As always, this is only one person’s opinion. I could be wrong (a caveat I feel we should all be more mindful of in all our positions and assumptions.) And I bear no ill will toward those who disagree.

With that out of the way...

------------



Firstly, most importantly, and core to absolutely everything I am about to say: everyone seeing this, in my eyes and heart, are my brothers and sisters. Not my enemies, not my targets or scorn, dismissal, or disdain; my countrymen and women, who I love, who I long to see healthy, happy, fulfilled, safe, and free. Whatever your beliefs - even if you absolutely loath me for my beliefs or think I am everything wrong with the world or this country - that will remain true. It will remain true both as a secular individual citizen of our Republic who respects all faiths, all people, all opinions, and all walks of life, and who believes that is required now more than ever, and - while I know this has all sorts of connotations for those on both the right and left, both good and bad - it will remain true for me as a Christian who believes in the virtues and tenets of love, charity, fellowship, forgiveness, and mercy.

Secondly, this is not my central point and I don’t want to spend too much time on it, but I’m adding it because I want people to know how seriously I take this. Writing this is quite intimidating for me. As some of you may know (you’re not required to care or pay it any mind of course,) I suffer from severe social anxiety disorder. This makes it extremely difficult for me to speak up, or out, at times. It makes me shun and fear conflict and confrontation like it is the plague. If you’ve never suffered a panic attack... please know that it feels for all intents and purposes like you are going to literally die. And writing this all but guarantees I’m going to have one (I can already feel it.) Because I know many on both sides of the political spectrum, especially and perhaps uniquely on ATS, will take great issue with everything I’m about to say.

Nevertheless... at this moment in our national history, I feel I have to say unequivocally where I stand on everything happening in our country. No one has to care. No one has to agree. But I have to say it. No matter how hard it may be. And I hope and pray some on both sides will at least read it all, consider it all, and take it all to heart... because I earnestly believe we are all in for disaster in the not too distant future if we don’t all collectively reassess where we are right now.

Firstly, and in my opinion - at least today - most crucially, to those who consider themselves liberals:



This election should be a wake up call. Not a wake up call telling us that racism, misogyny, or homophobia are alive and well. Not a wake up call telling us that the right is every bit as “deplorable” or “irredeemable” as Hillary Clinton told you they were. No.

This election should be a wake up call slapping us in our collective faces with our own hypocrisy, short sightedness, and lack of genuine concern for a huge swath of our fellow citizens’ wellbeing, freedom, and prosperity. As well as our own isolation within a media and cultural bubble that failed to perceive all of those things. For decades.

Hillary Clinton did not lose this election solely or even mostly because of racism. 29% of Latino Americans and 8% of African Americans voted for Trump. More tellingly, far fewer of them voted for Clinton than for Obama as well. She did not lose this election solely or even mostly because of sexism. Far more women turned out for Trump than most predicted, and although far more women voted or her than for Trump, she still garnered far fewer women than Obama did, especially among white women. (More white women voted for Obama than Clinton, yet racism is the primary cause of her defeat? I think not.) And she did not lose this election solely or even mostly because of third parties. There was an effect, certainly, but that was not the largest factor by a long shot.

She received significantly fewer votes than Obama did in 2008 or 2012, across the board. Why was this the case? We need only look at the states where she did far worse than predicted to find our answer in my opinion: Michigan, Ohio... she even struggled in Minnesota and Virginia, states she was supposed to win easily. The latter of which the Trump campaign even pulled advertising out of, because it was considered a probable lost cause. Look at Philadelphia: light blue instead of solid blue in places. Trump split the vote there far more than anticipated.

The painful truth the left - particularly the DNC - does not want to acknowledge, the lesson that must be learned, is simply this: working class citizens throughout middle America, both liberal and conservative, have seen industry, jobs, and options erode and then crumble before their eyes in the rust belt and throughout the heartland (and beyond.) For decades.

And despite their ostensible liberalism, despite their ostensible concern for the welfare of the economically most vulnerable in our country, the DNC have either created or endorsed policies, treaties, and/or principles which have directly contributed to that state of affairs. While at the same time pushing agendas which many on the right view as wholly unacceptable assaults on their rights, particularly second amendment rights. Whether you think that’s right or wrong, it cannot be ignored that that’s how it felt to them, and that this is in part what killed all hope of a Clinton electoral victory.

Which is not to say the Republicans have not advanced positions which harm our economy and jobs as well. NAFTA itself was originally conceived and advanced by the George HW Bush administration, after all. And it’s not as if we haven’t seen other constitutional curtailments under the second Bush and other administrations - anyone on this site familiar with conspiracy theories surrounding those in both parties are all too familiar with those facts. But that’s not something we can point to any longer to avoid our own culpability - and that culpability is massive - and insensitivity to the needs of these fellow citizens and human beings, in an effort to kick the can down the road another few administrations. Clearly, the people will no longer stand for it.


(Continued...)




posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 12:55 AM
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Why does the DNC think Sanders, who opposed NAFTA and the TPP, and said he wanted to bring jobs back to the rust belt, defeated Clinton easily in the Michigan primary? Why do they think Sanders supporters were by far the loudest, most enthusiastic constituent at the DNC convention, while journalist after journalist after journalist - both independent and mainstream - described Clinton’s rallies as far less emotionally engaged? (And often smaller.)

Because these things do not affect only those on “the right.” They affect massive numbers of Americans throughout the country. And neither party had provided any hope of relief in decades. Then came Trump. Saying things many of us find abhorrent and even terrifying, but nevertheless, offering, or at least claiming to offer, a real change in course. Something no one else had offered in ages, and which with the axing of alternatives on the left by the collusion of the DNC and the media, Democrats guaranteed they could not match with the establishment anointed Hillary Clinton.

What did Clinton offer by contrast? She endorsed and only later rejected the TPP, and her rejection of it after changing with the winds of political expediency was hardly passionate. She had emails (whether you believe the leaks were a good or bad thing, or that Russia was behind them or not, is irrelevant to the point in this instance) showing clear instances of consulting fees and honorary board positions to the tune of hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars in exchange for heavily implied access and the possibility of policy influence by major corporations, including foreign companies. As well as the same sort of Washington think tank related, corporatist, military industrial complex cronyism that we on ATS have decried about our political system on both sides of the isle forever now.

Again, it does not matter if Republican candidates and administrations are also guilty of this... the voters know this already. They rejected what they perceived as establishment candidates for that very reason this year on both sides. Saying, “but they do it too!” is not an effective argument anymore.

Meanwhile, we were all fed a liberal slanted media (because as liberals, that’s all we consume) that, safe in its west and east coast enclaves of prosperity, never got out into middle America to truly see and feel the anger and despair being experienced there. (Not that such anger and despair does not exist in cities as well - I should know. As a “city boy” whose family is originally from Texas, I have seen both, and they both are horrible. Poverty or the nearness of poverty is a far bigger problem than either side wants to fully admit or confront.)

And so it was unthinkable. Unfathomable. Impossible. Inconceivable to us... that someone with zero experience holding public office, no law degree, and no military experience - a celebrity from reality TV espousing things we assumed would be repulsive to everyone outside our bubble as well because that is all we knew - could ever ascend to the presidency. And our polls reflected this, as did our punditry, as did our analysis (with rare exceptions in independent media,) as did our commentary.

And yet... here we are. And now, rather than learning these lessons; rather than reflecting upon them and internalizing them; rather than soul searching, and changing who we are in order to finally cultivate real sensitivity and care and compassion for these people who loudly said on November 8th they want change and something other than endless despair and economic wheel spinning... we are raging in the streets. Some of us peacefully, and that is all well and good, and I share their fears and concerns, I do... but too many of us with unvarnished, self-entitled violence both in their actions, and in their hearts.

And does the DNC want to change this? Will they learn this hard, painful lesson? That remains to be seen, but so far... President Obama has been deafeningly silent about this violence, and perhaps most telling and disastrously off all... Secretary Clinton is instead meeting with her donors to explain that it was the Comey email that cost her victory, not all of these painfully obvious other factors.

People are rioting in the streets... and she’s talking to her donors. What does this say? Please, I implore you... see this. See this for what it is, not as a Republican conspiracy to destroy her chances (whether they exploited this or not is debatable but the bigger issue here in my opinion is the obviousness of where her true interests lie,) but instead as - or at the very least also as - her carrying more about soothing her benefactors before acting in the interests of public safety and civility.

And I know what some of you are thinking right now. “But is catering to people who have shown themselves to be racist and sexist really the solution here? Why should be cave in to that normalization of fear and hate and give them what they want?” But here is the crux of this entire dynamic: the numbers clearly indicate the vast majority of those who voted for Trump are not and could not be racist and/or sexist. Were some? Undeniably. Did Trump’s rhetoric embolden and perhaps legitimize some of those people? Realistically, I have to say, “probably yes, and that’s terrible.” Are people justifiably afraid now because of that? Yes, absolutely.

But aren’t we liberals the ones always telling conservatives, “Things aren’t that black or white, things are more nuanced than that; things aren’t always mutually exclusive” with our complex intersectional political ideals? And rightly so in my view, but in this instance, it is also incumbent upon US to recognize the same about ourselves. That some Trump supporters may share those frightening and disturbing views, is not mutually exclusive with the nuanced, broader picture telling us that many, many more who are not adherents to those points of view also voted for Trump because it is we who have contributed to their suffering and misfortune.

So, to all those who consider themselves fellow liberals (yes - despite and indeed because of all of the above, I am indeed about as liberal as they come,) this is my plea, my uninhibited and uncensored cry: please at least consider the moral hypocrisy of claiming to protect the disadvantaged, the poor, the minority, the unemployed, the immigrant, the ostracized... while also supporting economic policy that has crippled middle America, and then engaging in undisguised violence when an election does not go our way.[I]Please at least consider cultivating within yourselves - as you always try to tell the right to do for others - genuine empathy, love, and interest in the well being of these fellow citizens who don’t think as we do necessarily (and many who do, but voted for Trump anyway in their own economic self interest, whether he turns out to accomplish that for them or not) and turn away from the all or nothing politics of “them and us.”

(continued...)
edit on 11/13/2016 by AceWombat04 because: Typo



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 12:57 AM
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Please, please, please learn this lesson.

If you do not... then you deserve Trump’s victory. You deserve the Republican majority in congress. You deserve every measure they pass, every law created or overturned or precedent set that you find unacceptable or unthinkable. You deserve the Republic we get. Because those people out there are not our enemies. They are our fellow citizens. They simply disagree with us. Their lives, their happiness, their wellbeing, and their freedom, have to matter to us... sincerely matter to us... or we are hypocrites of the highest order, and this division cannot but deepen, worsen, and exacerbate, until our polity at last falls completely and irreversibly to tatters.

And we will be every bit as responsible - perhaps more so - as anyone we so profoundly disagree with as to have arrogantly labeled “irredeemable,” as though our own moral certitude and cleanliness is in any respect so above reproach, that we have the right to call anyone that.

Now, to everyone who considers themselves conservative, whether a moderate, or someone who fully thinks we’re all just dirty hippy commie bleeding heart SJW “cucks” who need to be put in our collective places:



Much of the protest and debate underway right now are not happening because the left wants to take your rights from you, overturn a lawful election in contravention of your votes and beliefs, or force you to agree with everything they hold to be true. I’m not involved in the protests personally, and I want to yet again go on record as saying I condemn violence and property destruction being undertaken in the course of said protests. That is unacceptable, and is happening in contradiction to the rule of law, and I regard it - as I said - as morally hypocritical on the part of liberals.

But I do understand why the protesting itself is happening, while opposing and condemning the violence. It is happening, simply put, because some are genuinely afraid.

You may not believe Donald Trump will do any of the things they fear... and I personally am willing to wait and see what he does, and hope for the best for the moment. He deserves the benefit of the doubt, in terms of governance and policy... but it is important to at least try (as I have implored my fellow liberals to try to take your point of view into account above, quite desperately in fact) to understand why many are afraid he might.

Trump has chosen as his vice president - who is now becoming more prominent in overseeing the transition process and cabinet appointment selection process - a man who believes in gay conversion therapy, and who advanced state legislation as governor which undermined anti-discrimination against LGBTQ people. Whether you agree or not, you must understand that for those in the LGBTQ community, this sort of man gaining this level of power in our Republic makes their blood run cold with unmitigated terror.

We know that many on the right, whether they share that particular belief or not with Pence, believe homosexuality to be a choice. We know. And I for one, while I disagree, respect everyone’s right to that opinion, and to say it. But when we take those opinions and turn them into laws that could affect the ability to be employed, the ability to file taxes the same way straight couples do, the ability in some cases to die with one’s significant other at their side, among many other possible nightmare scenarios being envisioned... I hope you can at least imagine, empathize with, and care about to some degree - even if you can’t agree or don’t see it that way - how horribly frightening these prospects are, even before any concrete signs have emerged that this would happen.

Likewise, while I know many on the right regard political correctness as rampant and out of control. And dammit... despite being liberal, despite being someone who does acknowledge and believe in privilege, despite being someone who never wants to see racist and sexist and homophobic rhetoric defended or made normal... Maybe there’s even an element of truth to that in terms of the chilling effect it has had on people’s willingness to speak openly about their opinions. I mean, honestly. Are we on the left guilty of shaming anyone whose speech we deemed offensive until they finally just clammed up until voting day, and then let it out in secret in the voting booth? You know what? Maybe. Maybe we did. And if so... clearly that is both ineffective, and given the anger it has caused, I would say probably wrong.

(Continued...)
edit on 11/13/2016 by AceWombat04 because: Typos



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 12:58 AM
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But at the same time, there is truth in my opinion intrinsic to the view that political correctness is merely a more academic outgrowth of politeness. Manners. Decorum. For example... I would like to believe, and am fairly certain, that most who consider themselves conservatives, while disagreeing with the way we on the left may at times articulate the subtleties and social dynamics of why this is the case, are in fact not the kinds of people who are fans of Trump’s language toward women.

I have known a lot of conservatives. As I said, my family is from Texas. And Texas is... well if you have ever lived in Texas, you know. Texas is Texas. Yet every man of any dignity I have ever known from those parts, however conservative they may be, has tried to be a gentleman; Would find the things Trump said to be backward and offensive to their sensibilities, indeed, precisely because of their conservative principles; Would raise their children to respect women and treat them as they would their own mother or sister.

Call me crazy, and I may be way, way off... but while I do believe there is a small yet vocal section of Trump supports just fine with and even celebratory about his attitudes and statements about women... I would like to believe most on the right find them uncouth and ungentlemanly. I can just hear my grandpa, after coming back from the rifle range and hearing Trump accost a woman in such a way, tapping him on the shoulder and saying with a thick southern twang, “We don’t talk to girls that way in these parts, sir. You’re gonna have to quit.” Somehow, that doesn’t come across as political correctness, does it? It’s just a man being a gentleman, is it not?

So with that in mind... I would ask those on the right to at least consider thinking about how Trump’s words make women feel (and yes, I know - many women voted for Trump and don’t feel that way - and that’s fine, and I fully acknowledge and respect it.) And then extrapolate that, and imagine how many of them might feel now, fearing that his sort of words and attitudes might now be emboldened, encouraged, and normalized. They are both afraid and angry about this possibility.

On immigration, you may believe in the utmost rule of law and that illegal immigration is both a refutation of that, and a threat to our economy. And on a purely factual basis I’m actually going to say I don’t disagree. The rule of law is indeed all that separates us from chaos; our voluntary accedence to the law is what keeps order. Defying it should have consequences, or the sake of said order.

But I do think it’s important to at least consider the human costs of doing what Trump has proposed as well, and why it is so frightening to so many on the left. We are talking about deporting millions of people. Men, women, and children - many of whom are not new arrivals, but who have been here for decades, who have worked, paid taxes, etc. - who would be separated from their friends, families, loved ones - in many cases, young children - and sent somewhere they know little of, in some cases do not even speak the language of. Then there are the logistic and humanitarian concerns. It would be a massive movement of people. Think about the effects it has had anytime millions of people move across a border in rapid succession. Refugee camps, disease, malnutrition, lack of medical care, etc. Without careful planning and massive spending, we would either see significant loss of life, or serious deterioration in these people’s quality of life.

Finally, there is the economic impact. While it is morally arguable that even if it’s hard, even if it’s a struggle, it would still ultimately be better and more moral to not have undocumented “under the table” workers... it is still quite possible (some would even argue probable) that suddenly having to pay only legal citizens minimum wage or higher for jobs that are presently largely undertaken by undocumented workers, could see food and goods prices skyrocket. While I agree that speaks to the scale of the problem of illegal immigration, and that its integration into our economy as a whole is not in and of itself a good thing necessarily... I do believe it’s the reality now and, like it or not, we have to consider the impact of that.

So all of the above feeds into why people are so upset about what Trump has said about his immigration policy. Although he has dialed it back somewhat, it is still alarming to many, and I hope those on the right can understand this even while disagreeing. I certainly respect their opinions.

Finally, with his statements regarding Muslims, we come to something that is actually a broader issue I would like to address to both sides. Again, while we have no idea yet if he will actually do this, during his campaign Trump literally said he wanted to put Muslim Americans in a database. Not immigrants, but citizens. We know this, because he said it would be used to distinguish between those here legally, and those not. When he was asked to distinguish his plan from the registration of WW2 era German Jews, rather than explain how this would not be the case, and draw comforting parallels separating his plan from that historically disturbing precedent, he replied, “You tell me.”

Now... even if you think it’s absurd that he would ever do this; even if you think we have a real problem with Islamic terrorists infiltrating otherwise upstanding Muslim American citizens’ communities; even if you think there are too many undocumented Muslim immigrants in America right now and that something must be done to curb that... can you at least understand why so many Muslim Americans and their social allies are horrified by the prospect of this? Can we all at least acknowledge that the singling out of members of a single religion, people who are American citizens in good standing under the law, would be grossly unconstitutional, and a terrifying precedent if enacted?

I know what some on the right may be thinking in response to that question: “But those on the left routinely threaten our second amendment rights.” And you know what? This may shock you... and further annoy my fellow liberals... but I completely, 100% agree with you. This may surprise you, but I absolutely oppose bans on specific rifle varieties, magazines and clips with over a certain amount of ammunition, putting people on no fly lists on “no buy” lists, etc. I regard all of those as equally unconstitutional, and while I myself do not own or want to own a firearm of any kind, I believe in the constitution, and the constitution seems fairly unequivocal to me in its support for your right to do so.

Please know that while perhaps not very outspoken because we know we will get flak from both sides... many liberals do in fact support your second amendment rights. But there is a larger issue here that I think both sides must learn if we are to preserve our polity in the future, and that’s what I’m getting at.

(Continued...)
edit on 11/13/2016 by AceWombat04 because: Typos



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 12:59 AM
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And this is it.

My plea to those on both the right and the left in this country:



You see, I believe the constitution is there to protect not what we agree on... but to protect ourselves from each other when we disagree. It exists to protect your right to own guns, just as it exists to protect the LGBTQ community’s right to equal protection under the law. It exists to protect your right to say Islamic infiltrators are secretly destroying this country and are fascists, just as it exists to protect Muslim Americans from being arbitrarily placed into a database predicated solely upon their faith. It exists to protect your right to be proud, outspoken Christians who believe homosexuality is a choice, just as it protects my right to be a Christian who doesn’t share that view of my LGBTQ brothers and sisters... and to protect those of all faiths, agnostics and atheists alike, in the secure and guaranteed ability to believe what they believe and speak their minds.

If we start taking away rights from those we disagree with... it creates precedent for our own rights to be savagely curtailed. Liberty entails risk It entails me risking getting shot by a madman, so that you can have the freedom to own an “assault” rifle. (I agree the term is arbitrary.) It entails us risking getting blown up by extremists, so that peaceful Muslim Americans can worship and construct mosques anywhere they want.

There is something here I hope both liberals and conservatives will deeply consider. We can’t have everything we want. We can’t vanquish one side, have everything exactly the way we want it to be, and just ignore the other half of the country’s needs and values. We have to return to caring about one another as fellow citizens and human beings. I beg you all to consider this, as partisans, but also as human beings. If you are Christian, as Christians. If you are Muslim, as Muslims. If you are a member of any faith, by the tenets of that faith, whatever it may be. (That includes you pagans and satanists, of which I know there are many on ATS... and guess what? This Christian respects even your right to your faith, because he believes your right to faith is also his right to faith in a constitutional republic.) If you are agnostic, or atheist, or secularist, or all of the above, then according to your own moral compass or logic, whatever that may be.

If we do not do this... if we do not find a way to listen to one another’s points of view again... if we do not find a way to deeply, truly care what happens to one another... then we are going to witness this nation split in two, and decline as a great civilization in world history. I see no way out of this, otherwise. I’ve tried to look at the big picture and sort of “game” this out into the near and distant future... and it is not pretty if both sides cannot find it within themselves to change, in my opinion. At least a little.

If you think, “Well, that’s just human nature...” perhaps. In which case, so be it, and enjoy the wild ride as everything falls apart little by little, pendulum swing after pendulum swing. Or if you think, “I don’t want to compromise. I don’t want to reconcile. I want my side to win, and yours to die, because it is wrong, period.” Then again, so be it. I respect your opinion, but I disagree, and think both sides doing this, shall inevitably be our undoing.

Consider this me doing my tiny, likely irrelevant part to try - at least try - to do something. Anything.

Thank you or your indulgence. Now I’m going to go throw up, shake in the corner for a while, and take an anxiolytic.

Peace.




edit on 11/13/2016 by AceWombat04 because: Typos



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 01:02 AM
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a reply to: AceWombat04

Nah, nope. By voting for my healthcare to be taken away and for the further degradation of the environment, those that voted for Trump actually proved a lack of care about my and my needs.

Not to mention what it's like for minorities and the LGBT community right now.

I understand fear about the economy and extremism. I really do. Do conservatives have any empathy for what it's like on the other side of the aisle?

Nope.

Not listening.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 01:08 AM
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a reply to: ravenshadow13

You could not possibly have read the entirety of my posts before that reply.
This is precisely what I'm talking about. I agree with you, but encouraging them to show that kind of empathy is exactly what I'm trying to do. And us to show them some of the same rather than writing them off entirely... as you just did. Without reading on to see that I myself am a liberal who probably agrees with you.

This is what terrifies me. That our future is more of this and nothing else, except far worse, with far more dangerous repercussions.

But yeah, I'm going to get offline now for a bit. I leave everyone to their respective positions and thoughts. I have said my piece, after four days of pondering it all, and I am now going to just leave it here and let people think and say whatever they want in response.

I just wish peace upon everyone, that's all I can say.

Peace.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 01:12 AM
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a reply to: ravenshadow13




those that voted for Trump actually proved a lack of care about my and my needs.




Nope.

Not listening.



Then why even respond to his thread. This attitude is the problem.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 01:15 AM
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a reply to: AceWombat04

Fantastic post!

There are small things that I could disagree with in your post, but the overall message is spot on. Here is how I would phrase it in a nut shell;

Just because some one disagrees with you politically, religiously, ideologically, etc. doesn't mean they are terrible people. Both sides need to believe this.

Look at Hillary. I believe she broke the law, and is a terrible establishment candidate. However, do I think that all of my friends that voted for her are bad people? Absolutely not. They just had different reasons for choosing who they voted for.

The same can be said of Trump supporters. They aren't all racists or misogynists, they just had a different perspective.

Now some people are just bad people that are filled with hate, and its hard to empathize with them. But we should focus on the vast majority that are just people who have different perspectives and want what best for their family or country.

So although I think these protests occurring right now are not helpful, I am willing to understand that many people may have legitimate fears. Mocking them as being dumb or childish won't help convince those people that my sides policies will help them out. I can disagree with these people while also trying to understand where they come from.

The difficult thing is reminding myself that I am no better than anyone else, and there life experiences are just as relevant as mine. So while I am rarely persuaded by feelings over facts, I am trying to at least to understand where these feelings come from.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 01:17 AM
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a reply to: AceWombat04

I appreciate your work putting this together.

We have all won, just as we have all lost. I send handshakes and hugs.

We are in this together after all.

Wars don't build a damn thing, and to see a war being waged by the leftist puppetmasters and their useful idiots sickens me.

It sickens me because it would appear as though one of the greatest victories of all time against a trifecta of deception will go down in history as "hate won".

These tools are asleep even in their rage.

Thank you for trying to mend. We will just have to wait and see how this turns out.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 01:20 AM
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a reply to: AceWombat04

I appreciate you writing this. I do not know why writing makes you anxious, you are extremely adept and convey your thought into words to an extend that makes me extremely jealous!

I think the action in what you wrote came from a place that many of us need to go. A place of introspection and seeing the world with our own eyes, without a media bias. Remember where we came from and what we want to accomplish as individuals on this earth.

Heres to hope for a little unity.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 01:34 AM
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originally posted by: ravenshadow13
a reply to: AceWombat04

Nah, nope. By voting for my healthcare to be taken away and for the further degradation of the environment, those that voted for Trump actually proved a lack of care about my and my needs.

Not to mention what it's like for minorities and the LGBT community right now.

I understand fear about the economy and extremism. I really do. Do conservatives have any empathy for what it's like on the other side of the aisle?

Nope.

Not listening.


I think you are looking at this too emotionally.

Lets start with your health care. People don't reject the ACA because they relish in people losing their health care. They just think that it is a failure that is hurting healthcare and costing to much.

The ACA has hurt some people, and helped others. Ask yourself this, is your support for the ACA your admission that you don't care that it is bankrupting some people? Of course not! You just like the plan because it helped you. So why can't you give the people that dislike the ACA the same courtesy to know just like you aren't supporting the ACA to hurt the people it hurts, they aren't rejecting it to hurt the people it helps.

The same with the environment. Everyone wants a great environment. But we live in reality. We have to ask ourselves questions; how bad is the environmental state of the world, what is causing the negativity, how much can we change those negative affects, what is the impact of those negative effects on our lives, and what cost does it make sense to pay to solve these problems.

These are difficult questions, and regardless of how certain you are of the answers, the truth is that many people have many different feelings on all of these questions. So if you support some of Obamas environmental initiatives that people feel have costs them their jobs and livelihood, are you heartless to these people? No, you just came to a different conclusion than the other people.

This can be applied to LGBT and minorities too. Working class people feel like they have been ignored and attacked for eight years and more. Both sides could have feared either candidate winning. Remember, Hillary called half of all Trump supporters irredeemable, so they may have feared her as much as the groups you mention fear Trump.

The point is I honestly think most Trump voters weren't voting because they don't care about you or these other groups lives. They voted for what the felt would be best for themselves and the country, just like Hillary supporters did the same.

Assuming that the people on the other side of the aisle hate you or don't care about you leads to division and hate that not only will make it less likely for your ideas to win next time, but makes it less likely for us to make the country better for everyone.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 01:38 AM
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Actually, I kind of always laugh at Sanders supporters. The establishment actually LOVES socialism. Because over the last few decades, socialism has almost become a religion for the far left and even many who are barely in the left at all. Eventually, they will be given what they want (socialist window dressing) and it will be what it always is. Totalitarianism in a pretty package.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 01:58 AM
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Wow......that was a book and a half and I starred all the posts and gave a flag just based on the amount of thought you poured forth into this thread. I consider myself a moderate personally, I agree with some issues from both political ideologies. I don't agree 100% with all you wrote but there is enough there that I do agree with and I totally agree with the main theme of your post. We do need to stop and work together for the betterment of everyone despite our differences, we will probably never agree on everything but it is important to at least understand and respect a different view even when in disagreement.

Also, I can't imagine being that afraid to voice an opinion that you actually make yourself sick over it but I feel a sincere sympathy for what it must take for you to muster up the courage to put it all down for all of us. I agree with JinMI also.....your writing is very articulate and brilliant in my opinion, and even though anxiety is something you just don't get over I will say if everything you say (write) has this much thought and intelligence put into it then you really truly should never feel anxious or afraid to voice your opinion.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 02:26 AM
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Very well said sums up far better than I could about things .

Even though living abroad did vote by absentee ballot - which probably got lost in the mail .

Its both embaressing and sad to see whats happening in the aftermath of the election over there . Had thought at first of making trip back after the elections for what would have been first time in 12 years , after seeing the resulting protests , riots , violence and vitriol over the days since have cancelled that idea . Things not perfect over here but at least we dont have violence and rioting in the streets after elections , though weve had protests over things like the 1mdb scandal along with protests against soros and his troublemaking . And weve had problems with militants but theyve been and are being dealt with by the authorities before theyve been able to do much damage . None of thats been as bad as what see going on back there in america post election .


Just hope that people take time to fully read your post and reflect upon the message within .



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 06:54 AM
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a reply to: AceWombat04

This amazing, Ace. I am in awe of your thoughtfulness and your eloquence and your compassion and humanity. And I cannot express how much I appreciate that you gave so much of yourself to write this, especially given the stress it caused you.

Thank you. Brightest blessings to you and yours -- and all of us.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 07:03 AM
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a reply to: ravenshadow13


By voting for my healthcare to be taken away and for the further degradation of the environment, those that voted for Trump actually proved a lack of care about my and my needs.


Because of Obamacare, I lost my health insurance. And because of Obamacare, my husband's insurance premiums, deductible and share of cost has gone up exponentially. Obamacare is hurting us pretty darn bad. Should I assume that because you voted for the person you expected to keep Obamacare that you prove a "lack of care about me and my needs?" Of course not.

I'm very happy you have healthcare. I'm not happy that I lost mine. Obamacare has serious problems and is hurting many many people. You may be next. The healthcare you have today is not guaranteed tomorrow either. We need a better plan. It's not personal against you.

The OP is asking -- pleading -- with you to understand that others are hurting. Right here and now.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 08:00 AM
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a reply to: AceWombat04

A beautiful post, Ace! Thank You for writing!



working class citizens throughout middle America, both liberal and conservative, have seen industry, jobs, and options erode and then crumble before their eyes in the rust belt and throughout the heartland (and beyond.) For decades.


For decades. There are structural problems when an economy does not work for everyone. We should be united in addressing those problems, but we have been divided.

Both Clintons and Obama came from the corporate wing of the Democratic Party. This realignment to try to compromise and work with corporations, and perhaps engender support from a Republican Party, in the end was not able to effect the change some wanted. This was all done as the asymmetric polarization of the body politic was beginning to happen.

My question now is, can economically disaffected individuals unite, without cultural wedge issues, to push on both parties to make an economy work for them and not just for billionaires? It is quite obvious that an economy that created wealth at the top has not benefited those below.

And this is all against a changing foundation of our way of governing. Since the 1990s, we have changed from a system of compromise to a system of oppositional governing. We now have a defacto parliamentarian system built on opposition, rather than the one our founding fathers wanted to bequeath to us, a way of governing based on compromise.

No matter what people think of Saul Alinsky, his original "rules" were meant for an American middle class that had actual economic power. With the diminishment of a middle class in the American economy, who will fight the oligarchy that has power to rule?

I remember those gentlemanly men like your grandfather. We all need to be gentlemen and gentleladies.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 10:38 AM
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a reply to: AceWombat04

Democrats need to make sure Trump fails. No compromises on any principles. Democrats need to filibuster EVERY bill. Democrats need to make sure the Trump presidency is utter complete failure. Because that's what they did to Obama.



posted on Nov, 13 2016 @ 10:41 AM
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originally posted by: desert
For decades. There are structural problems when an economy does not work for everyone. We should be united in addressing those problems, but we have been divided.


Why do we need to be addressing these problems?

Every year the top 1% become richer and richer. Every year middle class is being driven deeper and deeper into poverty wages. This is fantastic news for our country's leaders. What more could you want? When the top 1% are strong our country is strong.
edit on 13-11-2016 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)




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