The Promise of America - Lady Liberty & The Shining City

a reply to: AboveBoard

And who is really at fault here then? The immigrants being used for low cheap wages, or those that hire them? What is your field, if I may ask? What kind of job would work best for you? (Also, please look at the last lines of my second post above - please read them again...) We are making illegals the "bad guys" and victimizing them, when the reality is, they are being used for profit. Who is to blame? The ones looking for a better life and a path to Citizenship, or the one's making a lot of money off of them, and keeping the cost of fruit and chicken down for the rest of us? - AB

The illegals are at fault for coming, the companies for hiring them, and the governments for not enforcing the laws ( I say governments because . . . the Mexican government pushes it, the American gov doesn't enforce the laws, and state gov's enable it).

Well, I am a former salesman, teacher, coach, soldier, and police officer. There are many things I am willing and able to do (short of teaching under NCLB or being a cop for corrupt governments). The fact is, I need an entry level job in any field I pick just about, and being a white educated man, nobody is hiring. And yes, in some fields (like farm hand - you know seasonal migrant work typically) I cannot get hired because they would have to pay me min wage.

I did read it and appreciate that line of thought as well. But I would go a step further too. We are as a whole willing to accept and help those who come here legally to be Americans.

By definition, the illegal aliens are the bad guys. They are attempting to start here by breaking the law. Once you break that first 'small' law, then it is that much easier to break more.

I'll give you an actual scenario that I worked as a police officer. A DUI case. The car (one of many driving back from a club outside of town) is all over the road and ends up taking out a large sign pole and the front section of a small business (luckily it was 2am and workers didn't come in until 4am - doughnut shop). The driver left on foot and ran and hid. He did not do so because he was DUI, but because he was an illegal alien and had no license. Thus he should not have been driving anyways. Oh, he was 19. His girlfriend did not leave the scene, which is why we had the info on him. So he came here illegally, learned to drive without a license (which means not necessarily knowing the rules of the road etc..., and if he would have been visiting from Mexico he would have had a Mexican DL which is accepted in the US with VISA paperwork etc...), was drinking underage, DUI, and fled the scene. Yes, he was deported.

But no, the primary ones to blame are the governments that do not enforce the laws they make. I you arrest an illegal alien . . . deport them. Should we go looking for them? No, why bother? If they aren't coming to our attention, let them fly under the radar. But if they break another law (such as littering, speeding, shooting someone, robbery, etc...) then they get a short stay in county and a trip back to Mexico (or other originating country).

a reply to: JDeLattre89

Thank you for your reasoned response.

I am listening. I am hearing.

As an educated man (white or otherwise) you need a good-paying job with opportunity, so that you can take care of yourself and family, if you have one. That is the economy. That is what is the root problem.

I also hear your issue with the undocumented DUI. The DUI was a crime. Not having insurance was a crime. Driving without a license was a crime. A lot of Americans do these things too, and it certainly isn't ALL undocumented people out there getting DUI's.

This is one person, one "bad apple" among many good people. Why do I call them "good" when they got here illegally? Because their only crime in that circumstance is believing in the Promise of America, that they can be free here, and can make a better life for their family.

We need to acknowledge that "undocumented" people are not "bad" people. They are not all waiting on the corner to steal your money, kill you, rape you, inject you with drugs, whatever. I think we all know that is true.

If you were not struggling with our Economy, if you had a good paying job with opportunity, would you be able to feel more compassion towards the "wretched refuse" that washes up on our shores?

I'm curious. How would that change your point of view? Would it change?

- AB

Not to get off topic, but I think Anger, vitriol and the frustration that seems to be manifesting, is the sign of a changing phenomena massing worldwide. As your choice of topics indicate your personality and moral and compassionate compass, so mine to reflect a pragmatist lean. There is no absolute.... And I wish everyone could live in comfort and not fear, but the ruler of this world has other ideas. We can only use what wisdom we have been gifted with and march forward, and in the best of all worlds, harm no one.

a reply to: AboveBoard

I am working on my situation currently and will be taking my future into my own hands. I plan to start a business myself.

And yes, Americans commit these crimes all the time too. The big difference here, is that there is not an outcry for the 'poor' person when they are cooling their heels in jail.

Okay, I submit that 'bad' is the wrong word. And they are not 'undocumented', they are illegal aliens. An undocumented person is a citizen who does not have papers to prove it, or a visitor who lost their visa or passport. We have embassies to help those people. But them being here illegally causes more problems. Here are a few: a) they don't have DLs or insurance, b) they don't have health insurance (we now have a law requiring that everyone does), c) they cause hardships on legal immigrants (more red tape to go through, fewer allowances, and people looking down upon them), d) the whole wage thing, e) an entire separate society existing outside the laws of the land because they are illegal (which brings with it a mountain of new issues we will not cover here) and I am sure there are more as well, but these are the ones that most often come to my mind.

I (or we, as it is my family) are not struggling yet. Yes, we live pay to pay (wife's income), but we make do with what we have. Take a look at my chosen careers, I don't give two rips about 'high-paying', I care about people. But that means the overall good. And yes, my compassion is limited. It stops at those who don't have compassion for others. Those would include illegal aliens (for above stated reasons).

I don't consider any of them "wretched refuse". But as for people downtrodden by or in their nations, or simply people who need a fresh start . . . we have programs to let them into the country legally. It is called the immigration program, and in some cases refugee programs. Are the systems perfect? No, but they work the best they can.

And until we take care of the homeless on the streets of America, we need to strop importing the homeless from foreign lands.

a reply to: AboveBoard

but not a free-pass, which includes those here that are undocumented.

Isn't "undocumented' just a PC way of saying that they are here illegally?

Allowing immigrants to break the law and become criminals the moment they set foot on our soil, places them in a dangerous position and makes them exploitable. Most people are aware of human trafficking in the sex trade. Human trafficking for cheap or free labor is just as big. We are not helping them when we turn a blind eye to illegals in our country.

The Statue of Liberty was a gift from France but the poem at the foot of statue was the result of a contest. It did not come from France with the poem attached.

originally posted by: AboveBoard
Dear ATS,

I would like to start by sharing the poem at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty.

New Colossus

(statue of liberty poem)

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

To be Anti-Immigrant and Anti-Immigration is UN-American. At least to me.

Let me be upfront with that.

I'm not talking about "porous open borders" or "letting bad guys in" or "un-vetted potential terrorists"- I'm talking about all this denigration that is being aimed at those whose crime is to hope, to dream of a better life, the majority of really good people who are here because of the very Call written on Lady Liberty.

Most of us here would not exist except for our immigrant ancestors. And if you go back far enough, we are ALL immigrants, from the earliest Colonists. We are a tapestry of cultures and ideals, not just one homogeneous "American Way."

Can we please just take a moment to appreciate WHY people flock to America? Can we admit to the compassion presented above in the poem writ on our Monument to Liberty, "Mother of Exiles?"

This poem brings me to tears, it is so beautiful, so high-minded and clear.

Can we see the glory in that? Does it move you?

Or is it all a lie?

The Statue had nothing to do with immigration. It was about freedom. The French honored us with the Statue to celebrate the friendship between our countries. We were the first nation ever to make the rulers of their country aware that freedom and liberty was possible. The sonnet, "The New Colossus", engraved at the base, was written by the Jewish poet Emma Lazarus as part of a fund raising campaign. She wrote as a way of honoring those Jews suffering from anti-semitism who wanted to flee from their host countries. The original manuscript is held by the American Jewish Historical Society. The sonnet played no significant part in the celebration of the opening of the statue in 1883 and was all but forgotten. 20 years later the text of the poem was put on the inner wall of the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty. And that's how the poem ended up on a Statue that was specifically created to honor freedom and originally inscribed only with the adoption date of the Declaration of Independence (JULY IV MDCCLXXVI). And that's why we call it the Statue of Liberty and not the Statue of Immigration.

Today the true story of the Statue of Liberty is disingenuously used for political purposes to paint a gauzy picture of those happy times when we weren't so picky about who was allowed to immigrate to our country. In fact it was just the opposite, the US had (like the rest of the world had, and still has) a merit based immigration policy. Potential immigrants had to stop on the island and pass a rigorous inspection before being allowed to set foot on the mainland. If you didn't have enough money with you, if you had no job skills, or if you had a criminal record, you were rejected. If you passed that phase you were sent to the medical inspection line and uniformed military surgeons quickly culled out those with minor medical conditions. Even a case of glaucoma could cause you to be rejected. The doctors would observe the immigrants as they climbed the stairs leaving the baggage area. If you had difficulty with those stairs, that could cause you to be rejected. Ellis Island was sometimes known as "The Island of Tears" or "Heartbreak Island" because of the immigrants that were turned away.