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1 Peter 3
15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
a complete way things might have gone, past, present, and future, down to the last detail, everywhere in the universe.One such world is the actual world. Along with the actual world there are huge numbers of complete ways things might have gone differently.
It is possible that a maximally great being exists.
If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world.
If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world.
If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world.
If a maximally great being exists in the actual world, then a maximally great being exists.
Therefore, a maximally great being exists.
A “Sum-styled” Leibnizian Cosmological Argument
(1): Everything not existing by necessity (i.e. everything that could fail to exist) owes its existence to something external to itself. (For example, planets, lightning, and humanity each owes existence to something else.)
(2): Something exists (call it “the Universe” or “Big Contingent Sum”) which is the sum of all these things which do not exist by necessity.
(3): Therefore, “Big Contingent Sum” owes its existence to something external to itself.
(4): Whatever exists externally to “Big Contingent Sum” obviously cannot itself be contingent (i.e. cannot be part of that sum).
(5): Therefore, whatever exists externally to "Big Contingent Sum" is not contingent; by definition it exists of necessity.
Conclusion: Therefore, “Big Contingent Sum” owes its existence to something that exists by necessity.
WLC Argument from applicability of mathematics:
1) If God did not exist, the applicability of mathematics would be a happy coincidence
2) The applicability of mathematics is not a happy coincidence
3) Therefore God exists
"whatever sceptical arguments may be brought against our belief that killing the innocent is morally wrong, we are more certain that the killing is morally wrong than that the argument is sound… Torturing an innocent child for the sheer fun of it is morally wrong. Full stop."
Even the enemies of objectivity rely on it... the skeptic states a position that cannot possibly be sustained or rationally believed [because] he is in effect asking you not to apply his assertion to his own position, without giving any reason for exempting his own words from his own general claim. His position is futile and self-refuting; it can be stated, but it cannot convince anyone who recognizes its implications.
When I assert 'this is good' or 'that is evil', I do not mean that I experience desire or aversion, or that I have a feeling of liking or indignation. These subjective experiences may be present; but the judgment points not to a personal or subjective state of mind but to the presence of an objective value in the situation.
The question is not: Must we believe in God in order to live moral lives? There is no reason to think that atheists and theists alike may not live what we normally characterize as good and decent lives. Similarly, the question is not: Can we formulate a system of ethics without reference to God? If the non-theist grants that human beings do have objective value, then there is no reason to think that he cannot work out a system of ethics with which the theist would largely agree. Or again, the question is not: Can we recognize the existence of objective moral values without reference to God? The theist will typically maintain that a person need not believe in God in order to recognize, say, that we should love our children.
1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
2. Objective moral values do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.
It is possible that a maximally great being exists.
If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world.
No matter how you move the words around, something cannot be proved to exist only because it's possible to exists. So your second line should have been like this: "If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being possibly exists in some possible world."
We cannot use words the same way we use numbers, and we cannot apply the same mathematical logic because numbers are fixed values while words are variables. The words have mostly abstract meanings behind them, they imply locations, time, attributes and so on.
So if I say x=4 and y=4 then x=y, and that is a true statement. But if I say "great being=possible" and "great being=exists" it doesn't mean that "possible=exists". And it seems to me that is exactly what you did here, or something very close. Either that or I'm too dumb to understand your logic. IMHO
Either that or I'm too dumb to understand your logic. IMHO
Edit to ad: and it seems to me that if something is demonstrable to exists it can be done in simple, logical terms, you don't necessarily need interchangeable terms with interchangeable meanings to make all this even more confusing than it already is.
ExistenceTypes [
NecessaryExistence = existing in all possible worlds;
ContingentExistence = existing some worlds but not all worlds;
ImpossibleExistence = existing in no possible world; ]
In order to agree with you I must ask: why only these 3 types of existence? What about temporary existence? Or virtual existence, only as a concept?
Or conditioned existence?
Or virtual existence, only as a concept?
Then I also must ask: why are you using the term "necessary"? Necessary for whom or for what?
The number of discovered chemical elements is 118. Take the sentence "The number of chemical elements is necessarily greater than 100". Again, there are two interpretations as per the de dicto / de re distinction. According to the de dicto interpretation, even if the inner workings of the atom could differ, there could not be fewer than 100 elements. The second interpretation, de re, is that things could not have gone differently with the number 118 turning out to be fewer than 100. Intuitively, this claim is true. Of all the ways the world could have turned out, presumably there are no possibilities wherein 118 is fewer than 100. That 118 is greater than 100 is a necessary fact. The de dicto interpretation seems to yield a false statement. The de re interpretation seems to yield a true statement.
Another example: "The President of the USA in 2001 could not have been Al Gore". This claim seems false on a de dicto reading. Presumably, things could have gone differently, with the Supreme Court not claiming that Bush had won the election. But it looks more plausible on a de re reading. After all, we might skeptically wonder of George W. Bush whether he could have been Al Gore. Indeed, assuming that being George Bush is an essential feature of George Bush and that this feature is incompatible with being Al Gore, a de re reading of the statement is true.
What do you mean by "world"?
What do you mean by "existence"?
Yes we use variable words to transmit information but even that information is variable. Like in your example where we can say "it is raining outside". Yet that simple information would be translated different for each listener: is raining like pouring or dripping, cold rain or nice summer rain, outside like locally or generally and so on and on.
A simple word like "dog" will translate in the mind of each person as a different image, different race, size, color, posture... You see what I mean?
Now when it comes to concepts the problem greatly amplifies because there is no objective reality behind the words.
And we should never forget that we try to prove the existence of a real, objective entity here. Or not? I mean what you really understand when you say "a maximally great being "?
Let's assume I don't hear any sound. I'm deaf. You, on the other side are trying to prove me that sound exists objectively even if I cannot perceive it. Now try to apply the same logic you used with God and prove that sounds exists. It will be much easier for both to see if this is a logic than can be practically applied or is just a mental construct available only within a limited language or frame of thinking.
Because (in my opinion) if something is to be defined as "existing" it should exist in all times, all places, all conditions, for everyone. If there is only one variable where that thing does not exists then the definition is not true or complete.
However. What I wanted to tell you is that in fact there is evidence of god. But that evidence can only be personal, for you only. No one can prove god to you, just like no one can prove they are in love. Is the best comparison I can come up with. Unless it happen to you personally is just words. Is not something someone can understand intellectually.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
So in conclusion, it is most definitely possible that a necessary, omniscient, ominpotent, wholly good being exist, and therefore via the virtuous circularity established in via the Ontological Argument God must exist.
I feel like omniscient, omnipotent, and wholly good are arbitrary qualities that we humans have given to an all-powerful God.
How can we give attributes to an all-powerful God when we do not have the power to comprehend God?
I am most skeptical about the argument that God is wholly good. Why does God have to be wholly good? It seems quite arbitrary to me.
Atheist Colin McGinn affirms in 'Ethics, Evil and Fiction':
When I assert 'this is good' or 'that is evil', I do not mean that I experience desire or aversion, or that I have a feeling of liking or indignation. These subjective experiences may be present; but the judgment points not to a personal or subjective state of mind but to the presence of an objective value in the situation.
Atheist Peter Cave argues that:
"whatever sceptical arguments may be brought against our belief that killing the innocent is morally wrong, we are more certain that the killing is morally wrong than that the argument is sound… Torturing an innocent child for the sheer fun of it is morally wrong. Full stop."
As Margarita Rosa says in 'A Defense of Objectivity':
Even the enemies of objectivity rely on it... the skeptic states a position that cannot possibly be sustained or rationally believed [because] he is in effect asking you not to apply his assertion to his own position, without giving any reason for exempting his own words from his own general claim. His position is futile and self-refuting; it can be stated, but it cannot convince anyone who recognizes its implications.
And to think that a spiteful, vengeful God who turns humans to stone and floods the earth to cleanse the world of humans is a good God?
I would argue that a more plausible quality would be a wholly just God.
With that said, I don't buy any of the apologetics arguments. I believe if you want to use logic you cannot use deductive logic to prove the existence of God, because if you do so, you are bound to use invalid premises or invalid reasoning.
More appropriate would be to use inductive arguments, and show that there is a high probability that God exists. That's the best you can do, that last bit has to be a leap of faith.
First, God as wholly good. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but my interpretation is any act of God is good because God is wholly good. So basically God can do anything and it will be Good because God willed it. Seems circular.
Another question. If God is Good, does that entail that all of God's actions are morally good?
There are good people who occasional do bad things, and there are bad people who sometimes do good things.
God must account for massacres of large numbers of people in the Old Testament such as the Passover, which culminated in the death of every Egyptian first born child.
God must account for how he is being benevolent by condemning someone to an eternity in hell.
He must account for the existence of moral evils such as genocide which people continually commit throughout history.
Seems to me that God is loving, kind, just, fair only to his chosen people. He does not seem to care much for anyone else.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
The form of all these arguments are valid as the majority of these are developed by professional philosophers. So what isn't sound?
Here is my stance. God can be a maximally great being without being morally perfect.
Saying God is morally perfect assumes that morality exists. From my understanding, God is the standard for morality. Without God, there would be no morality.
So in conclusion, I do not believe morality is relevant in apologetics. Am I understanding this right, or am I bashing a straw man?