ATS: A Military-Governmental-Industrial Conspiracy?

Originally posted by Belgarath
I've read this thread with great interest and I hope the arguments continue. Maybe we'll all learn a little more.

While I'm not entirely convinced that Carlyle is the evil group that some suggest, the conflicts of interest are blatant and well, quite alarming to me.

Mahree's last post made me ponder the rabid pursuit of the American Dream by some, and its consequences for the Dreams of the rest of the world. War and conflict is immensely profitable for Carlyle and all the other absurdly wealthy corporations mentioned. It is unfortunate and WRONG that those who greatly influence policy decisions are so intricately tied up in these groups. The insatiable thirst for money and power is destroying all of us. I think the cost is too high. What to do?

I do not approve of using war to profit the economy. War is real to me, not as real as it might have been, but I can relate to the families who have military personnel in Iraq. My son was called back from the Army reserves to active duty and was scheduled to go to Iraq for a year. The mission had to be canceled and so he did not serve his active duty in Iraq.

You are correct about the greed for money and power. It will destroy us all. I don't think that you can blame any one person or organization for this. Our citizens need jobs, and will take and be thankful for whatever is available. These defense contractors pay good salaries.

This has turned out to be a good discussion about an important topic. And, I might add, so far presenting 2 sides of the issue.

I can not find any evidence that Carlyle Group is any more "evil" than any of the other defense contractors listed. As a matter of fact some of the top five have some pretty dirty laundry.

We are at war and therefore it makes sense and is a fact of history, that war helps the economy. Employees of these companies are not complaining about accepting their paychecks. Well, maybe a few, but that doesn't stop them from reaping the benefits.

All of the companies have opportunities for investors. And, yes, there are many rich and wealthy investors, and probably even pension funds and 401s included that are the investors of these companies, but also many, many little guys.

This was a link provided by Marg I believe. It analyzes the top defense contractors as War Profiteers.

www.corpwatch.org...
A summary of the article seems to state that more civilians are included in the cost of this war then at other times. They also speak about the lack of full and open bidding. Most of the big contracts are awarded in this style. Some because it is the only company that can do the job or produce the product.

At this site you will find tables comparing information on defense contracts 1998-2003

www.public-i.org...
The information shows the contractors and comparisons in the following areas: full & Open bidding, not full & open bidding, Other, and No info.
There are other charts showing increases in defense spending that are interesting reading.

This is another link:
news.xinhuanet.com...
Pentagon unveils report on contract awards for 2004

The Department of Defense has listed the 100 top contractors it awarded grants to in fiscal 2004, for a total of $230.7 billion.

San Francisco's Bechtel is No. 15.

The top 10
recipients are:
1. Lockheed Martin Corp., $20.7 billion
2. Boeing Co., $17.1 billion
3. Northrop Grumman Corp., $11.9 billion
4. General Dynamics Corp., $9.6 billion
5. Raytheon Co., $8.5 billion
6. Halliburton Co., $8 billion
7. United Technologies Corp., $5.1 billion
8. Science Applications International Corp., $2.5 billion
9. Computer Sciences Corp., $2.4 billion
10. Humana Inc., $2.4 billion
15. Bechtel Corp. $1.7 billion

Source: Department of Defense

It seems to me, unless you can prove that President Bush started this war to put money in his or his family's pockets, the increase in defense spending and the way the contracts are awarded is a necessary part of supporting our troops. The awarding of contracts to the same big corporations seems to be because they can get the job done and do it faster than anyone else.

This is my take on the situation. It is nothing but common sense. I don't have any investments at all, in any of these corporations.

Here are the links to the top 3 contractors. Take a look at their annual reports and balance sheets.

www.lockheedmartin.com...
www.boeing.com...
www.northropgrumman.com...

Excellent post Mahree, thanks.

FYI - Carlyle is not a defense contractor, it's an investment group. ...I think the real issues with Carlyle have to do with conflict of interest - the association between the Bush family and the Saudi's - and Carlyle's phenomenol growth in the few years since Bush became president - Carlyle is profiting by mega-billion$, as a direct result of President Bush's executive decisions.

...A similar type of situation occurred in WWII. The Bank of International Settlements (BIS) was incorporated in Switzerland about 1930, founded by a group of investors from the USA, Britain, Japan and Germany - then the bank financed war efforts for each of these countries! ...When the bank was set up, each government signed the papers - which included a clause stipulating that the banks assets could never be seized even if the representative countries went to war with each other.

It was always fairly clear that the BIS helped engineer the war, but it could never be proved. ...The bank was supposed to be dissolved, but it never happened...

...IMO - We can't find solutions before we understand the problems - and some of them are deep, with a long history.


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Originally posted by soficrow
Excellent post Mahree, thanks.

FYI - Carlyle is not a defense contractor, it's an investment group. ...
.

I think that I have mentioned here in previous posts that I am aware of Carlyle Group as an investment group. Some of my posts addressed this issue. I did not find it a problem.

I wanted to ask you why did you find Carlyle so evil. Your post does answer this question, but I am not convinced.

This was a good and important topic for discussion. Thank you.

Originally posted by Mahree

I wanted to ask you why did you find Carlyle so evil. Your post does answer this question, but I am not convinced.

The links and information are public, and posted above:

* The Bush family and the Saudi's are associated through Carlyle Group.

* Carlyle Group has grown phenomenolly in the few years since Bush became president.

* Carlyle is profiting by mega-billion$, as a direct result of President Bush's executive decisions.


...Evil is not a word I would use, but what would would it take to convince you that the situation is unacceptable, at least in a democracy?


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Marg, I always enjoy reading your posts. We seem to share many of the same concerns.

Mahree, I respect and thank your son for his commitment. I have many friends in the reserves and active duty. I'm thankful that they are all well.

Originally posted by Mahree
You are correct about the greed for money and power. It will destroy us all. I don't think that you can blame any one person or organization for this. Our citizens need jobs, and will take and be thankful for whatever is available. These defense contractors pay good salaries.

You are right. I can't blame any one person or organization, and I don't. It has probably been going on for a very long time and will likely be going on for a long time to come.

I'm grateful for having a good job and being able to pay my bills, buy toys, and share with others. This is the way it works.

The gist of my post was that it would by nice if those that are addicted to wealth and power can find less harmful and destructive ways of getting their fix. The problem is that the current method is very effective. Wage war with lots of very expensive weapons and put everything back together again. A little dramatic, I know.

I'm not so sure "defense" contractor is so accurate, but they'd better pay good salaries with all those lucrative contracts.

Originally posted by Mahree
I can not find any evidence that Carlyle Group is any more "evil" than any of the other defense contractors listed. As a matter of fact some of the top five have some pretty dirty laundry.

Nor can I. Nor will I. I'm not convinced that the numbers are accurate or even directly related to wealth. They all contribute to the whole, not just Carlyle.

Originally posted by Mahree
We are at war and therefore it makes sense and is a fact of history, that war helps the economy. Employees of these companies are not complaining about accepting their paychecks. Well, maybe a few, but that doesn't stop them from reaping the benefits.

I aggree with you completely, but the point that we are at war is moot in the context of this argument. On one side are those that think the major stakeholders in these corporations are influencing policy to add 0's to their income. On the other side are those that think they're just in the right place at the right time.

Originally posted by Mahree
It seems to me, unless you can prove that President Bush started this war to put money in his or his family's pockets, the increase in defense spending and the way the contracts are awarded is a necessary part of supporting our troops.

If there is proof, we will not know of it for a long time. I'm not completely convinced it's happening, but since I've been paying attention, which has only been since 9/11, all that I've seen and heard has lead me to believe that something is not right with the "war or terror". In its current form, I think it's self perpetuating. I'm very concerned.

Originally posted by Mahree
The awarding of contracts to the same big corporations seems to be because they can get the job done and do it faster than anyone else.

I just hope this list of corporations doesn't get any smaller.

Another point I'd like to make is that I know next to nothing about economics, corporate investments, mega-mergers and such, so for all I know, everything may be just peachy.

Quote: "I've been paying attention, which has only been since 9/11, all that I've seen and heard has lead me to believe that something is not right with the "War or Terror".

Yes me too! I believe that you are correct! I believe that it is all a
HUGE MASSIVE Psychological Brainwashing Operation run by our Government - Since Day 1 of the First Term of the Bush Administration (i.e. 1-1-2001). Be Scared & Frightened of the "Terrorists" (Vague Term) my little kiddies! Pay your Taxes! They struck our "HomeLand" on 9/11 & they will do it again unless you vote for Bush (this worked too !)

Israel’s Enemies are the U.S's Enemies! War is GOOD! Time to Crusade! It’s "Good for the Economy" (if you are a Military Weapons Manufacturing Corporation or OIL Corporation that is)!!! You always hear about the "State Controlled Mass Media" in other Countries - well guess what - about 99% of ALL Media in the U.S.A. is Controlled - a large amount of this by the State - either Directly or Indirectly! Think about this the next time you watch the "News"! They know that most "Americans" are
"White Christians" (what ever this means) - that it would be easy to Blame everything on the Arab Moslems. Now there are plenty of actual Moslem Extremist Terrorists in the world - but let me ask you something - was there any SOLD EVIDENCE or PROOF that ever came out linking
"Al-Queada" to the 9/11 attacks - NO!!! Only Media fed Hysteria! Everyone just bought it so easily - it still shocks me today! I blame our Lieing & Incompetent Government as much as I blame the
"Islamist Terrorists"!!!


[edit on 28-1-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by marg6043
........................
Really muaddib when you have a firm that hit the jackpot on 9/11 with a member in the top ranking that is the father of the president of the USA, I wonder what you call that. I call it dirty.

But I see is nice to ignore what we don't want to face.

[edit on 27-1-2005 by marg6043]

Marg, how did the Carlyle group hit the jackpot in 9/11?

There are companies, corporations, firms that have always made money in the defense industry, does this mean they had something to do with 9/11?

BTW, if i remember, and if I read it right, Bush Senior was, or still is i am not sure, an "advisor" to the board of Carlyle. He was not a director of Carlyle as some conspiracy sites are claiming.

Rich people, whether they are presidents or what not, have been involved in businesses with corporations like Carlyle for a long time Marg, didn't you know this?

Why would president Bush choose to put in charge a corporation that will probably not be able to meet the demands of the job the president or whoever gives these corporations?

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

Yes me too! I believe that you are correct! I believe that it is all a
HUGE MASSIVE Psychological Brainwashing Operation run by our Government - Since Day 1 of the First Term of the Bush Administration (i.e. 1-1-2001). Be Scared & Frightened of the "Terrorists" (Vague Term) my little kiddies! Pay your Taxes! They struck our "HomeLand" on 9/11 & they will do it again unless you vote for Bush (this worked too

!)

First off, yes i am pretty sure that one of the reasons why we haven't been attacked again is because we went, and still are, going after every cell of Al Qaeda and other terrorist cells who have the same, or very similar goals as Al Qaeda.

Second of all....what the heck are you talking about brainwashing?....

I guess 9/11 didn't happen, i guess 3/11 didn't happen, I guess terrorists, including Al Qaeda have not attacked in many countries around the world....

What you call brainwashing....I call reality.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Israel’s Enemies are the U.S's Enemies! War is GOOD! Time to Crusade! It’s "Good for the Economy" (if you are a Military Weapons Manufacturing Corporation or OIL Corporation that is)!!!

First of all....have the "enemies" of Israel not proclaimed themselves enemies of the US?....yes they have...many times....

Second of all, war is not good, but wars have happened in the past and will continue to happen in the future....whoever said that war is good?....

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
You always hear about the "State Controlled Mass Media" in other Countries - well guess what - about 99% of ALL Media in the U.S.A. is Controlled - a large amount of this by the State - either Directly or Indirectly! Think about this the next time you watch the "News"! They know that most "Americans" are
"White Christians" (what ever this means) - that it would be easy to Blame everything on the Arab Moslems.

You have got to be kidding....how in the world is the media in the US controlled by the government if every little thing anyone in power does is pretty much public knowledge because of the media.....

How many newspapers, and online articles, say trash about president Bush and many if not all of those in power?....

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Now there are plenty of actual Moslem Extremist Terrorists in the world - but let me ask you something - was there any SOLD EVIDENCE or PROOF that ever came out linking
"Al-Queada" to the 9/11 attacks - NO!!! Only Media fed Hysteria! Everyone just bought it so easily - it still shocks me today! I blame our Lieing & Incompetent Government as much as I blame the
"Islamist Terrorists"!!!

Yes there is....first of all Bin Laden claimed responsibility for 9/11.....

QATAR - Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden appeared in a new message aired on an Arabic TV station Friday night, for the first time claiming direct responsibility for the 2001 attacks against the United States.

Excerpted from.
www.cbc.ca...

Also, I have posted in here threads about the intelligence in Spain, and even judges in Spain finding links between Al Qaeda and 9/11 in Spain...

Authorities in Spain also uncovered that the terrorists were going to attack France first, but then diverted to attack Spain before the elections in that country. The attack made a percentage of people in Spain change their vote for the socialist party, "El Partido Socialista", which made the difference and put such party in power in that country. The threads and links can be found in these forums.


There is probably even more evidence but the above is what I can remember at this time.


BTW, before I forget, one of the judges in Spain also said that there was evidence that one of those terrorists involved in 9/11 had been invited by the Iraqi embasy to Spain. I also posted this information with links in these same forums.

I have been having some trouble finding links lately in the forums, the new set up is different and i don't get the desired results from the search I make, but i will put the links I mentioned when I find them.

A link which proves that this supposed "government fed mass histeria" is happening in other countries such as Spain.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...



---edited to clarify comments and add links---

[edit on 29-1-2005 by Muaddib]

Thanks Mahree for the link I read it is very inside full.

How our administration conflict of interest has been and issue is no doubt about they are real and you can find tons of information of the links.

No only our members of the administration have profited with the money but also the family members.

Not surprisingly, Halliburton's links to Cheney and other Washington power brokers appear to have helped the company's business prospects in the Middle East.

Substantial profits received by our top administrations from deals in the middle east while in the government is call for concern about how much evolvement they have in our politics.

What it seems like just regular business deals are nothing more that bipartisan deals between our government and their private contributors.

Specially when they have hold your employment before you are part of the government.

I feel as a concern American that the Saud Royal family with links to financing terrorist groups like the one that cause the 9/11 has profited with our government deals through firms like Carlyle and Bush Father while his son is the president of our nation.

Even President bush had links directly to the Carlyle not only his father.

President Bush is himself linked to the Carlyle group: He was a director of one of its subsidiaries, an airline food services company called Caterair, until 1994. Six years later, when Bush was governor of Texas, the board of directors of the Texas teachers' pension fund - some of whom were his appointees - voted to invest $100 million with the Carlyle Group.

www.commondreams.org...

Let’s not forget that our own Rumsfeld also has ties to the Carlyle group as a very close friend to Mr. Carlucci

Rumsfeld even shared his the keys to their $280,000 ski condo in Taos, New Mexico. Talk of weapons development could easily come up between the two Tigers alums. In the magazine interview, Carlucci insisted it does not. Now we all know that they are only talking about the “good” old days and never about the next money to be invested from the defense budget in the family firm.Occurs back then Bush senior was still working for the firm and member of the board.

As part of the post-9-11 military buildup, Donald Rumsfeld gave United Defense, Carlyle's subsidiary, the full monty: over $470 million to continue development on the problem-riddled Crusaders, puzzling some military analysts.

Everybody remember that the Carlyle firm was a very powerfull shadow firm working in the background with all the president friends and father in charge.

Thanks to 9/11 tragic event they had become center stage in their rapid growth in the last 3 yeas and they are just starting.

How big will they get in the next 4 and how about with another Bush in the white house for another 8 years.

Mighty empire when most of the members were part of the senior bush administration.


www.villagevoice.com...









[edit on 29-1-2005 by marg6043]

Quote: "what the heck are you talking about Brainwashing?

I guess 9/11 didn't happen"

No I am not saying this! Obviously 9/11 DID Happen! I am not saying that Radical Extremist Moslem Terrorists don't Exist - Obviously they DO!

What I AM Saying is that Freedom of Speech in the U.S. (Except for the Web) is an ILLUSION! The U.S. Media is CONTROLLED - it is all a Corporate Complex - which the State has its Hands in! Have you ever watched
"Fox News" or Read "Newsweek" or "Time Magazine" or
"U.S. News & World Report" or the "Washington Post"? Don't tell me that the Media is Neutral! The Media is very Biased & Political - either to the Right or to the Left - what ever they feel like that day.

It was the Media that informed us about "Al-Queada" & "Bin-Laden" & that they def did 9/11! I don't know if you realize there are FAKE Bin Laden Tapes out there & that Bin Laden & Saddam Hussein had CIA ties!!! Do you know what they are able to do to alter Media with today’s Technology?

Remember this is the SAME Media that emphatically states that a
747 Plane hit the Pentagon - Including Fox News - when all evidence that I have seen on the Net shows that it was NOT & that Evidence to the Contrary was Seized by the FBI! Wow if the Media & the Government told you that Santa Clause & the Easter Bunny were REAL & definitely Exist - would probably believe them!

Let me ask you a question - did you believe all of those Polls on Fox News during the Election - the ones showing that Bush was ahead most of the way - how do you know that they were not FAKE & just Made up?


[edit on 29-1-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

...the article is about Prime Minister Paul Martin's choice of Frank McKenna as Canada's next Ambassador to the United States. McKenna chairs The Carlyle Group's advisory board in Canada and is close to the Bush family, also connected to the Carlyle Group. The Carlyle Group is a huge private equity firm, heavily invested in the arms industry, and a key player in many conspiracy theories. Rabble predicts "corporate integration on the continent."

...So we've dealt with the Carlyle Group, what it is and what everyone's suspicions are...

Now, what about that prediction?

Rabble predicts "corporate integration on the continent."

The US and Canada are wrapped up in agricultural trade negotiations and 'Mad Cow' disease, with each other and Japan...

The all-new super-sized NAFTA, with expanded terms and new security provisions is also on the block...

Where do you see these negotiations heading, given the key negotiators and their relationships?


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Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

No I am not saying this! Obviously 9/11 DID Happen! I am not saying that Radical Extremist Moslem Terrorists don't Exist - Obviously they DO!

What I AM Saying is that Freedom of Speech in the U.S. (Except for the Web) is an ILLUSION! The U.S. Media is CONTROLLED - it is all a Corporate Complex - which the State has its Hands in! Have you ever watched
"Fox News" or Read "Newsweek" or "Time Magazine" or
"U.S. News & World Report" or the "Washington Post"? Don't tell me that the Media is Neutral! The Media is very Biased & Political - either to the Right or to the Left - what ever they feel like that day.

You are going off topic again trying to cramp everyone of your "beliefs" into one post..... I hate it when people leave out facts, and exagerate trying to make a picture that is not true.....

Anyways, we have other threads that deal with each one of those topics you raised, if you want to try to keep discussing those things you said please do so in their respective threads......

But to quickly address those....topics you made...........i hate it when people exagerate and don't want to face the facts....


First, most of our nation has been divided into two main groups for a long time.....if many of the news media are biased towards one group or the other, it is because of this fact, but the media is not controlled by the government...... We have seen in these forums how some of those media outlets you mentioned have not always have shown totally biased news reports towards the right.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
It was the Media that informed us about "Al-Queada" & "Bin-Laden" & that they def did 9/11! I don't know if you realize there are FAKE Bin Laden Tapes out there & that Bin Laden & Saddam Hussein had CIA ties!!! Do you know what they are able to do to alter Media with today’s Technology?

Did you expect Osama Bin Laden to come to your house and announce himself to you?.....

BTW, it was through Al Jazeera, the same news source so many in here trust that Osama announced their involvement in 9/11....


Also...the US trained the Taliban, among them Osama, to fight the Russian communists in the 80s....that's where the connection ends that I know of....you know, you need facts to back up claims.... The US, or the CIA do not, and did not own Osama...people can turn agaisnt you, I guess you have never had a "supposed friend" turn against you.....

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Remember this is the SAME Media that emphatically states that a
747 Plane hit the Pentagon - Including Fox News - when all evidence that I have seen on the Net shows that it was NOT & that Evidence to the Contrary was Seized by the FBI! Wow if the Media & the Government told you that Santa Clause & the Easter Bunny were REAL & definitely Exist - would probably believe them!

There were people in Washington that saw the pentagon being hit by a plane....not everybody was looking at the Pentagon at that moment so not everybody saw the plane hit it....but it was a plane....

There is a lot of crap going around the internet....if you believe everything that you find on the internet you might as well believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny....

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Let me ask you a question - did you believe all of those Polls on Fox News during the Election - the ones showing that Bush was ahead most of the way - how do you know that they were not FAKE & just Made up?

We covered the elections and reported the stats and data from every news source in these forums, they were all pretty much saying the same thing, some were slower than others as they waited for confirmation of the data, but they all pretty much had the same info....

Now going back to the topic....the Carlyle Group. i would like to know if all those who oppose to the US govenrment hiring the private firm Carlyle Group had a better company in mind to be hired. You want the US government to hire "Uncle Joe's small private firm"?....

Every country in the world would hire those companies that they know will take on the task that they set. The world is run by money, and even those in power do make business, and have stocks with several large companies.

Please do show me if this is not true and someone who is in the government, in any country, and is not rich or doesn't have stocks or do business with big companies which they hire to do some assignment.

So, what is exactly are you guys asking?..... You want the governments of the world to hire small companies?....is not going to happen.


---edited for errors---

[edit on 31-1-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
i would like to know if all those who oppose to the US govenrment hiring the private firm Carlyle Group had a better company in mind to be hired. You want the US government to hire "Uncle Joe's small private firm"?....

HMMM. Carlyle Group is an investment firm - a money middleman - there is no real reason for any government to 'hire' an investment firm...



.

Quote: "but the Media is not Controlled by the Government."

HA, HA, HA, HA, HA - GOOD ONE!

Would you care to PROVE to me that a 747 hit the Pentagon? Do you have any PROOF? I have seen NO Media that show me that a 747 hit the Pentagon! Obviously "Something" hit it - could have been a Missile!

I am just stating my Opinion huh - Look who’s talking! "Well I say that a 747 hit the Pentagon - just believe me - if I say so then it must be true" - Have you ever heard of PROOF & EVIDENCE?

Soficrow - Thanks for starting this thread. This needs to be discussed.

Carlyle or not, there are people in power whom are profiting nicely in the current environment. Many will argue that this has been going on for a long time and I will argue that it is wrong. It may be legal, but it is wrong.

Consider also that the current environment is very confusing, the definition of the enemy is hazy, and there seems to be no end in sight. Some folks are going to make a bundle and a whole lot more are going to suffer.

Sorry for going slightly off topic.

[edit on 31-1-2005 by Belgarath]

Originally posted by Belgarath

Carlyle or not, there are people in power whom are profiting nicely in the current environment. ...It may be legal, but it is wrong.

True, some are profiting very nicely, but ordinary Americans' quality of life is going down the toilet...

And no, it's not legal to profit from insider knowledge and connections - it's very illegal...


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Originally posted by soficrow

HMMM. Carlyle Group is an investment firm - a money middleman - there is no real reason for any government to 'hire' an investment firm...

Are you sure of this soficrow?

The following link is from the "European Venture Capital Journal." You have to subscribe to read the articles, but still just the name of one of those articles shows that you are wrong.

Polish government to launch venture fund

Excerpted from.
www.evcj.com...

The US government did not "launch" the Carlyle Group, but are hiring them to perform certain jobs. Every country in the world hires private firms, or they own them as in the case of Russia and China. Some of them, as you can see above even create their own venture funds.

---edited to add more comments and correct errors---

[edit on 2-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "but the Media is not Controlled by the Government."

HA, HA, HA, HA, HA - GOOD ONE!

Would you care to PROVE to me that a 747 hit the Pentagon? Do you have any PROOF? I have seen NO Media that show me that a 747 hit the Pentagon! Obviously "Something" hit it - could have been a Missile!

I am just stating my Opinion huh - Look who’s talking! "Well I say that a 747 hit the Pentagon - just believe me - if I say so then it must be true" - Have you ever heard of PROOF & EVIDENCE?

This thread is not about 9/11, we have other threads where this has been discussed. Do a search, with the search feature, and you will find threads that deal with this, respond to those and discuss it there if you want.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Would you care to PROVE to me that a 747 hit the Pentagon? Do you have any PROOF? I have seen NO Media that show me that a 747 hit the Pentagon! Obviously "Something" hit it - could have been a Missile!

I am just stating my Opinion huh - Look who’s talking! "Well I say that a 747 hit the Pentagon - just believe me - if I say so then it must be true" - Have you ever heard of PROOF & EVIDENCE?

Nobody has ever claimed that a 747 hit the Pentagon!

A 757 hit the Pentagon, the ATS report is here: www.abovetopsecret.com....

[edit on 2/2/2005 by djohnsto77]

[edit on 2/2/2005 by djohnsto77]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by soficrow

HMMM. Carlyle Group is an investment firm - a money middleman - there is no real reason for any government to 'hire' an investment firm...

Are you sure of this soficrow? ...just the name of one of those articles shows that you are wrong.

Polish government to launch venture fund

Excerpted from.
www.evcj.com...

The US government did not "launch" the Carlyle Group, but are hiring them to perform certain jobs. ....Some of them, as you can see above even create their own venture funds.

...Socialist countries start venture funds so government can play the role of an investment firm - usually because established firms think business in their nation is too risky to finance.

...It's a completely different thing...



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