RCC Symbolism and it's meaning

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all the earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe,

Queen? What the? Okay, God is the King (His kingdom). Jesus is the Prince of Peace... so Mary is...like...God's wife or something? I don't really recall any marriage, queen-status or anything like that in the Bible...

Wait, doesn't that imply that God and Mary had...uhh, extra-marital "relations." (I can imagine God putting on the Clinton, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman...look, she's still a virgin!")

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by MahreeIn my own words, not necessarily correct definition, this is the way I look at purgatory.

A "halfway" house on the way to heaven. If I go to purgatory I will eventually go to heaven. So going to purgatory is not a bad thing. When people pray for us after we are dead this will help to purify us and move us from purgatory to heaven. Prayers for the dead do not help anyone in hell. They have chosen not to be with God.

When we are purified of all sinful tendencies we will be able to enter heaven.

Thank you I think I understand. JPII may be in a halfway house at present waiting to go to Heaven when Jesus comes the second time.

Okay now I am confused again. If prayers do not help anyone in hell, does that mean instead of purgatory they can go straight to hell without any sleep?

That'd be correct.

I ask because I am really confused as to where everyone waits and in what state they are. Some say they just sleep until judgement day which is when they are disbursed. And this is particularly confusing because, if when we are dead we sleep then shouldn't we all be in one place in which case prayer can help? And if some go to hell and purgatory, then shouldn't prayer help? and if some are in heaven as with where JPII is said to be, then why all the prayers for him? He is already there, no?

There is no time in eternity, so there's no waiting, or so I've been taught. Purgatory is simply a state of the soul, a process, through which one becomes "purged" of sin's effects.

Believe me, it is confusing. I've studied Catholicism for most of my life, and I still don't completely understand it.

[edit on 4/5/2005 by supercheetah]

[edit on 4/5/2005 by supercheetah]

[edit on 4/5/2005 by supercheetah]

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by MahreeIn my own words, not necessarily correct definition, this is the way I look at purgatory.

by SomewhereinBetween: Thank you I think I understand. JPII may be in a halfway house at present waiting to go to Heaven when Jesus comes the second time.

supercheetah is correct. Purgatory is a state of mind. Our bodies are still here on earth. Our souls can be purified in Purgatory and advance to Heaven before the second coming of Jesus. We can help those in Purgatory by prayers and indulgences. I don't believe this state is called "sleep".

by SomewhereinBetween:Okay now I am confused again. If prayers do not help anyone in hell, does that mean instead of purgatory they can go straight to hell without any sleep?

Yes, after being judged at death, their souls go straight to hell. There they will be separated from God forever. They chose hell for themselves because they do not want to be with God.

by SomewhereinBetween: I ask because I am really confused as to where everyone waits and in what state they are. Some say they just sleep until judgment day which is when they are disbursed. And this is particularly confusing because, if when we are dead we sleep then shouldn't we all be in one place in which case prayer can help? And if some go to hell and purgatory, then shouldn't prayer help? and if some are in heaven as with where JPII is said to be, then why all the prayers for him? He is already there, no?

We can't be sure that the Pope's soul is in heaven. That is why we will pray for him.

I believe that our souls will experience the glories of heaven and that if we go to purgatory we will want to be purified. The souls in purgatory can help themselves by praying for us here on earth. I don't believe they are sleeping.

And, perhaps, those souls who have chosen hell will be sorry that they will not be with God. I don't know what will happen to those in hell. The story of Lazarus and the Rich man comes to mind.

I think that until the final judgment, heaven and hell are also states of mind for our souls. There are some already in Heaven with body and soul. shmick25 lists several known from the Old Testament, "Elija, Moses (I think) and Enoch".

Jesus and Mary, body and soul, would also be in Heaven. Jesus ascended into Heaven, and from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 966, page 274..."Mary was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."

Please understand that I am a convert to Catholicism. I did have instructions before my conversion, but since then have tried to study and learn about what being a Catholic means. My attempt at answers are from a Catholic prospective.

Your questions are difficult and you probably need someone who knows a lot more than I do about Catholicism.

At death we are judged. Heaven, hell or purgatory is the result of our judgment. The souls in purgatory will be purified until they are ready to be in the presence of God.

By Grace and confession we are forgiven our sins. So, eternally we are saved. The temporal punishment is what is left. The making up for our sin against God, and the overcoming of the tendency to fall into error for the same sins again.

But confessing our sins does not necessarily remove any or all of the temporal punishment accruing to those sins Temporal punishment must be erased by prayer and mortification. Jesus did pay the debt for sin, but Jesus also said to pick up our crosses and follow him. We must also
carry our crosses and share in the suffering, most especially for our personal sins.

This is one example of how temporal punishment works in our natural lives on earth:

Suppose our earthly father will forgive us for batting that baseball through the window, but he still insists that we pay for the window. It is to help us overcome these sins.

At the second coming of Jesus, "Jesus will come to judge the living and the dead." The living will be those left on earth at that time. These who are left will have already served their purgatory on earth. (we also serve some of our purgatory time on earth). And He will also judge the dead. (the resurrected)

Nothing will change from the judgment at our death.

During the Last Judgment Day we will see the perfect justice and mercy of God with all the angels and the resurrected present. On this final day all will know our history, good and bad.

Sins committed and forgiven are shown as marks of victory over death. We
will see who the hypocrites were and who were the just ones. We will see those that seemed to be rewarded on earth for their evil ways. Now we see a different story of these scoundrels.

We will see the real saints, those who seemed quiet and unassuming during life.

It is probable that no words will be spoken in the judgment, but that in one instant, through a Divine illumination, each creature will thoroughly understand his own moral condition and that of every fellow creature (Romans 2:15).

Form of the Judgment. The procedure of the judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46, and in the Apocalypse 20:12 (Romans 2:15). Many believe, however, that the words of the sentence: "Come, ye blessed", etc. and "Depart from me", etc. will be really addressed by Christ to the multitude of the saved and the lost.

All this is necessary to keep God's scales of justice even.

The Final Judgment follows upon the general resurrection of the dead, and so the joy of Heaven or pains of Hell will be bodily upon each human person thereafter.

So supercheetah and mahree, you say that it is correct that JPII is in a halfway house until Jesus returns, or perhaps just stopped into and will get there before Jesus comes, (your 2nd response) and prayers do not help anyone in hell, and that instead of going to purgatory they can go directly to hell.

Who is correct then, is it the cardinals who announced that he “has returned to his father’s house.” Or non-Catholics who claim there is no purgatory, that the soul sleeps until the day of judgement? Did the RCC get it worn for 1500 years where there was not a formal disposition on purgatory? What about what it is, where it is considered by many to be a place of cleansing by fire, but according to JPII a condition of life?

Now if JPII made it to heaven as per the cardinals, then what is the continued praying for, and when does the RCC stop praying for each of their dead?

They cannot all be correct.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

SomewhereinBetween,
I did mention that you need someone a lot more knowledgeable than I am to answer your questions. But, I will give it a try.

by SomewherinBetween: So supercheetah and mahree, you say that it is correct that JPII is in a halfway house until Jesus returns, or perhaps just stopped into and will get there before Jesus comes, (your 2nd response) and prayers do not help anyone in hell, and that instead of going to purgatory they can go directly to hell.

We cannot know where JPII is for sure. Most of us think, from a human standpoint, that JPII was holy enough to make it straight to heaven. But, we are not God and do not know how God judged JPII. We pray, at the very least, that JPII is in purgatory. And, again, we do not know how long, if JPII is there, he will stay. That is the reason for the prayers. If he is already in heaven the prayers will just add to his glory, if he is in purgatory they will help purify him. And, in purgatory he can help himself by praying for us.

Prayers do not help those who have chosen to go to hell. And yes, during the judgment at death those who have chosen to will go straight to hell. They do not want to see God. They will be separated from Him for all eternity.

by SomewhereinBetween: Who is correct then, is it the cardinals who announced that he “has returned to his father’s house.” Or non-Catholics who claim there is no purgatory, that the soul sleeps until the day of judgement? Did the RCC get it worn for 1500 years where there was not a formal disposition on purgatory? What about what it is, where it is considered by many to be a place of cleansing by fire, but according to JPII a condition of life?

The cardinals who say "he has returned to his father's house." believe that he lived his life as close to the way Jesus wants us to live as humanly possible. But, no one on earth can know for sure.

I have been trying to give you answers according to the RCC. Answers to your questions about purgatory as to what Catholics believe.

It isn't within my knowledge as to what non-Catholics believe or disbelieve about purgatory. These are the only answers within my faith that I can give you.

by SomewhereinBetween: Now if JPII made it to heaven as per the cardinals, then what is the continued praying for, and when does the RCC stop praying for each of their dead?

We hope JPII is in heaven and if he is then the prayers will add to his glory. If he is in purgatory they will help him to be purified. Catholics pray for the poor souls in purgatory regularly.

by SomewhereinBetween: They cannot all be correct.

I have answered your questions about purgatory as well as I am able.

Maybe this does not compare to your belief systems. If this discussion helped you to understand RCC I am thankful. If it didn't help you to understand I am sorry. Perhaps it is just because of my poor presentation or lack of knowledge.

Originally posted by shmick25
Firstly there is an unusual photo of Mary with a wagon wheel. Some sites suggest it is a solar wheel. According to a catholic site they seem to dismiss it as a wagon wheel. Why would Mary be holding one of these?

This is Saint Catherine of Alexandria. She wears the red of a martyr. The wheel is actually broken at the bottom but is hard to see in that representation. Catherine was ordered to be broken on the wheel, but when she touched it, the wheel broke. She was then beheaded.

Secondly there is a picture of Mary standing on a serpent. I understand this as symbolism as Mary crushing the head of satan. The bible specifically talks about Christ defeating evil not Mary. Why would they show this?

The serpant is one of the symbols of the immaculata. To explain the symbolic nature of the serpant very simply: Satan has no power over Mary.

And just an observation with no photos, why the use of so many red roses around the churches next to statues of mary and baby Jesus?

They smell nice? Or... Red roses are usually a symbol of suffering.

is that a crescent moon she's standing on? If so, what's up with that?

Originally posted by saint4God
is that a crescent moon she's standing on? If so, what's up with that?

Rev 12:1-2 has been interpretted to have many different meanings.



[edit on 6-4-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Originally posted by Mahree
SomewhereinBetween,
I did mention that you need someone a lot more knowledgeable than I am to answer your questions. But, I will give it a try...

We cannot know where JPII is for sure. Most of us think, from a human standpoint, that JPII was holy enough to make it straight to heaven. But, we are not God and do not know how God judged JPII. We pray, at the very least, that JPII is in purgatory. And, again, we do not know how long, if JPII is there, he will stay. That is the reason for the prayers. If he is already in heaven the prayers will just add to his glory, if he is in purgatory they will help purify him. And, in purgatory he can help himself by praying for us.

Then how can you know there is a purgatory, and that it in fact is selective or not?

Prayers do not help those who have chosen to go to hell. And yes, during the judgment at death those who have chosen to will go straight to hell. They do not want to see God. They will be separated from Him for all eternity.

You say prayers do not help those in hell, but you cannot say why you would pray for JPII or for how long, or that he in fact is in purgatory or heaven. Is it then a judgement call?

The cardinals who say "he has returned to his father's house." believe that he lived his life as close to the way Jesus wants us to live as humanly possible. But, no one on earth can know for sure.

The catholic church claims it cannot err, correct? Therefore, he is in heaven, so the prayers are for?

I have been trying to give you answers according to the RCC. Answers to your questions about purgatory as to what Catholics believe.

Yes I know, but those answers are not by your own admission necessarily knowledgeable.

It isn't within my knowledge as to what non-Catholics believe or disbelieve about purgatory. These are the only answers within my faith that I can give you.

if you are not a Catholic, then I understand.

We hope JPII is in heaven and if he is then the prayers will add to his glory. If he is in purgatory they will help him to be purified. Catholics pray for the poor souls in purgatory regularly.

Please see above.

I don't know why I am getting in the middle of this one. But ...

It's not selective.

When a soul departs in a state of grace (without mortal sins) but with unresolved venial sins, it goes to Purgatory.

State of grace = Heaven.
State of grace + venial sins = Purgatory.

The Church is only infallible in the definitions of faith and morals.

The Cardinal's who stated he has returned to his Father's house were not defining neither faith nor morals, nor are they in a position to know but only speculate.

Prayers are offered for the dead because the living are not in a position to know the condition of the departed soul. Minimally, prayers are offered at the Requeim mass(es), as well as a yearly Mass in Commemoration of All the Dead. However, one is free to pray for the souls of the departed whenever they'd like.

Raphael_UO

Thank you for your explanations of purgatory and judgment at death. I know that according to my faith, Catholic, all that you have said is correct and what I believe. I don't seem to be able present my thoughts in a credible manner.

SomewhereinBetween

I hope the explanations that Raphael_UO has given will help you understand where Catholics are in faith about judgment at death.

It seems as though by trying to help I have just made you more confused and you do seem a little angry with me. Please forgive me.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by saint4God
is that a crescent moon she's standing on? If so, what's up with that?

Rev 12:1-2 has been interpretted to have many different meanings.

Oh oh oh! Never made that connection before. So Revelation gal, the good one, is Mary? Okay, I can kind of see that, that that part of Revelation has already happened. Much thanks as now the picture makes sense, including the 12 stars. The 3 1/2 years in the desert thing threw me, but that could've been the time between birth and when the 3 wise guys came to give gifts. Probably at that point they could rejoin civilation (one of the gifts being gold). Am I on track?

@ Mahree
You're welcome. The beliefs of the RCC are not that different from my own. If only they would do something about the dogma, tradition and rituals...

@saint4God

Is the gal in Revelations Mary? That would depend on who you talked to. Has it been interpretted as such? Yes.

Are you on the right track? I couldn't tell you.
I have never studied the parallels between the Catholic teachings of Mary and Revelations. But I am aware such parallels exist.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by saint4God
is that a crescent moon she's standing on? If so, what's up with that?

Rev 12:1-2 has been interpretted to have many different meanings.

Oh oh oh! Never made that connection before. So Revelation gal, the good one, is Mary? Okay, I can kind of see that, that that part of Revelation has already happened. Much thanks as now the picture makes sense, including the 12 stars. The 3 1/2 years in the desert thing threw me, but that could've been the time between birth and when the 3 wise guys came to give gifts. Probably at that point they could rejoin civilation (one of the gifts being gold). Am I on track?

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Symbolic scripture in heaven is always interpreted by scripture. Genesis explains who the sun, moon and stars represent in the verse above.



Gen 37: 9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

The passage above is about Joseph ruling over Jacob and over his mother and brothers. Jacob was represented by the sun, Jacob’s wife was represented by the moon and his eleven brothers were represented by eleven stars. Jacob, his mother, and his eleven brothers bowed to Joseph when they came to live in Egypt when he was made prime minister of Egypt. Joseph and the eleven brothers represent the whole house that descended from Jacob (Israel).

This woman that John sees symbolized in heaven is true Israel. It is the people that descended from Jacob (Israel) that have stayed faithful to Jehovah. John sees Israel symbolized in heaven as a woman. She is clothed with the sun and moon because those in her are descendents from Jacob and Rachel (The sun and moon in the genesis passage above). Like their parents, the chosen people of Israel are clothed with special revelation (light) from God and reflect His glory. The crown with twelve stars that is on her head represents the twelve brethren apostles from the twelve tribes of Israel that were chosen to rule over the twelve tribes of Israel and that laid the foundations for the new covenant Church.

Mat 9:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Catholics claim that the woman in this passage is Mary the “queen of heaven”. There simply is no foundation for such an assumption in scripture. This belief simply comes by interpretation of scripture through prejudiced supersession theology and the idolization of Mary. The “queen of heaven” was always a pagan god in the scriptures and she is not the real Mary of scripture. The worship of the Madonna and child actually goes back to the time of Nimrod and Babylon. Nimrod and his wife Semiramis supposedly had a supernatural child called Tammuz. Tammuz allegedly was gored to death by a wild boar and came back to life. He and his mother were actively worshiped in ancient times in many cultures. The Romans called them Venus and Cupid and the Greeks called them Aphrodite and Eros. These two demonic gods are still popular names with some today.

Either Catholics are still doing pagan Babylonian practices or they have allowed pagan Babylonian practices to be Christianized. Even if the latter were true, in effect it is doing the same thing because they have put Mary in the place of Jesus who is the only mediator between God and man (1 Ti 2:5).

The Bible speaks of the “queen of heaven” but she is always a demon!

Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.



Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

Jer 44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

Jer 44:25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

Originally posted by shmick25
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Symbolic scripture in heaven is always interpreted by scripture. Genesis explains who the sun, moon and stars represent in the verse above.



Gen 37: 9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

The passage above is about Joseph ruling over Jacob and over his mother and brothers. Jacob was represented by the sun, Jacob’s wife was represented by the moon and his eleven brothers were represented by eleven stars. Jacob, his mother, and his eleven brothers bowed to Joseph when they came to live in Egypt when he was made prime minister of Egypt. Joseph and the eleven brothers represent the whole house that descended from Jacob (Israel).

This woman that John sees symbolized in heaven is true Israel. It is the people that descended from Jacob (Israel) that have stayed faithful to Jehovah. John sees Israel symbolized in heaven as a woman. She is clothed with the sun and moon because those in her are descendents from Jacob and Rachel (The sun and moon in the genesis passage above). Like their parents, the chosen people of Israel are clothed with special revelation (light) from God and reflect His glory. The crown with twelve stars that is on her head represents the twelve brethren apostles from the twelve tribes of Israel that were chosen to rule over the twelve tribes of Israel and that laid the foundations for the new covenant Church.

Mat 9:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

@saint4God

Just to sift through all the text shmick25 wrote in his post. Only the above deals with Rev 12:1. The rest is why Catholics shouldn't call Mary "Queen of Heaven", which is irrelevent to the interpretation of Rev 12:1.

Catholics are taught that 12:1 is a fusion of symbolism-- multiple levels of interpretation if you will. As I said, it depends who you talk to.

Really it's up to an individual to decide what they believe (this is not a RCC teaching, but I'm not Catholic.). Read, pray, and ask the Holy Ghost to guide you. Prove all things and hold unto the good.

Here's a page I found in a brief web search that I hope will help with the RCC perspective.

Who is the Woman of Revelation 12?

Sorry about the cut and past post above, I had to rase to a meeting and didnt have time to Disect it.

Was taken from this site that I found on google. Interesting read...

www.thepropheticyears.com...

*munches on popcorn* Is it wrong to be enjoying this?

I guess I get to be the one inbetween in this case.

My first thought reading Revelation 12 was, "yeah, I can see how that's Mary" and reading Schmick's post was was thinking "yeah, I don't know where this 'queen of heaven' stuff comes from Biblically speaking". I guess I'm the smiley in the middle (figuratively speaking, no reference to violence intended).

What's interesting is my church leader said "When it comes to Mary, I think Catholics put too much emphasis on her and Protestants do not put enough". Though I disagreed at the time he said that, I'm starting to understand where he's coming from.

Sorry for the interrupt, by all means continue!


[edit on 8-4-2005 by saint4God]