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Wait, doesn't that imply that God and Mary had...uhh, extra-marital "relations." (I can imagine God putting on the Clinton, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman...look, she's still a virgin!")
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by djohnsto77
Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all the earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe,
Queen? What the? Okay, God is the King (His kingdom). Jesus is the Prince of Peace... so Mary is...like...God's wife or something? I don't really recall any marriage, queen-status or anything like that in the Bible...
Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Thank you I think I understand. JPII may be in a halfway house at present waiting to go to Heaven when Jesus comes the second time.
Originally posted by MahreeIn my own words, not necessarily correct definition, this is the way I look at purgatory.
A "halfway" house on the way to heaven. If I go to purgatory I will eventually go to heaven. So going to purgatory is not a bad thing. When people pray for us after we are dead this will help to purify us and move us from purgatory to heaven. Prayers for the dead do not help anyone in hell. They have chosen not to be with God.
When we are purified of all sinful tendencies we will be able to enter heaven.
Okay now I am confused again. If prayers do not help anyone in hell, does that mean instead of purgatory they can go straight to hell without any sleep?
There is no time in eternity, so there's no waiting, or so I've been taught. Purgatory is simply a state of the soul, a process, through which one becomes "purged" of sin's effects.
I ask because I am really confused as to where everyone waits and in what state they are. Some say they just sleep until judgement day which is when they are disbursed. And this is particularly confusing because, if when we are dead we sleep then shouldn't we all be in one place in which case prayer can help? And if some go to hell and purgatory, then shouldn't prayer help? and if some are in heaven as with where JPII is said to be, then why all the prayers for him? He is already there, no?
supercheetah is correct. Purgatory is a state of mind. Our bodies are still here on earth. Our souls can be purified in Purgatory and advance to Heaven before the second coming of Jesus. We can help those in Purgatory by prayers and indulgences. I don't believe this state is called "sleep".
Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Originally posted by MahreeIn my own words, not necessarily correct definition, this is the way I look at purgatory.
by SomewhereinBetween: Thank you I think I understand. JPII may be in a halfway house at present waiting to go to Heaven when Jesus comes the second time.
Yes, after being judged at death, their souls go straight to hell. There they will be separated from God forever. They chose hell for themselves because they do not want to be with God.
by SomewhereinBetween:Okay now I am confused again. If prayers do not help anyone in hell, does that mean instead of purgatory they can go straight to hell without any sleep?
We can't be sure that the Pope's soul is in heaven. That is why we will pray for him.
by SomewhereinBetween: I ask because I am really confused as to where everyone waits and in what state they are. Some say they just sleep until judgment day which is when they are disbursed. And this is particularly confusing because, if when we are dead we sleep then shouldn't we all be in one place in which case prayer can help? And if some go to hell and purgatory, then shouldn't prayer help? and if some are in heaven as with where JPII is said to be, then why all the prayers for him? He is already there, no?
Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
We cannot know where JPII is for sure. Most of us think, from a human standpoint, that JPII was holy enough to make it straight to heaven. But, we are not God and do not know how God judged JPII. We pray, at the very least, that JPII is in purgatory. And, again, we do not know how long, if JPII is there, he will stay. That is the reason for the prayers. If he is already in heaven the prayers will just add to his glory, if he is in purgatory they will help purify him. And, in purgatory he can help himself by praying for us.
by SomewherinBetween: So supercheetah and mahree, you say that it is correct that JPII is in a halfway house until Jesus returns, or perhaps just stopped into and will get there before Jesus comes, (your 2nd response) and prayers do not help anyone in hell, and that instead of going to purgatory they can go directly to hell.
The cardinals who say "he has returned to his father's house." believe that he lived his life as close to the way Jesus wants us to live as humanly possible. But, no one on earth can know for sure.
by SomewhereinBetween: Who is correct then, is it the cardinals who announced that he “has returned to his father’s house.” Or non-Catholics who claim there is no purgatory, that the soul sleeps until the day of judgement? Did the RCC get it worn for 1500 years where there was not a formal disposition on purgatory? What about what it is, where it is considered by many to be a place of cleansing by fire, but according to JPII a condition of life?
We hope JPII is in heaven and if he is then the prayers will add to his glory. If he is in purgatory they will help him to be purified. Catholics pray for the poor souls in purgatory regularly.
by SomewhereinBetween: Now if JPII made it to heaven as per the cardinals, then what is the continued praying for, and when does the RCC stop praying for each of their dead?
I have answered your questions about purgatory as well as I am able.
by SomewhereinBetween: They cannot all be correct.
Originally posted by shmick25
Firstly there is an unusual photo of Mary with a wagon wheel. Some sites suggest it is a solar wheel. According to a catholic site they seem to dismiss it as a wagon wheel. Why would Mary be holding one of these?
Secondly there is a picture of Mary standing on a serpent. I understand this as symbolism as Mary crushing the head of satan. The bible specifically talks about Christ defeating evil not Mary. Why would they show this?
And just an observation with no photos, why the use of so many red roses around the churches next to statues of mary and baby Jesus?
Originally posted by saint4God
is that a crescent moon she's standing on? If so, what's up with that?
Then how can you know there is a purgatory, and that it in fact is selective or not?
Originally posted by Mahree
SomewhereinBetween,
I did mention that you need someone a lot more knowledgeable than I am to answer your questions. But, I will give it a try...
We cannot know where JPII is for sure. Most of us think, from a human standpoint, that JPII was holy enough to make it straight to heaven. But, we are not God and do not know how God judged JPII. We pray, at the very least, that JPII is in purgatory. And, again, we do not know how long, if JPII is there, he will stay. That is the reason for the prayers. If he is already in heaven the prayers will just add to his glory, if he is in purgatory they will help purify him. And, in purgatory he can help himself by praying for us.
You say prayers do not help those in hell, but you cannot say why you would pray for JPII or for how long, or that he in fact is in purgatory or heaven. Is it then a judgement call?
Prayers do not help those who have chosen to go to hell. And yes, during the judgment at death those who have chosen to will go straight to hell. They do not want to see God. They will be separated from Him for all eternity.
The catholic church claims it cannot err, correct? Therefore, he is in heaven, so the prayers are for?
The cardinals who say "he has returned to his father's house." believe that he lived his life as close to the way Jesus wants us to live as humanly possible. But, no one on earth can know for sure.
Yes I know, but those answers are not by your own admission necessarily knowledgeable.
I have been trying to give you answers according to the RCC. Answers to your questions about purgatory as to what Catholics believe.
if you are not a Catholic, then I understand.
It isn't within my knowledge as to what non-Catholics believe or disbelieve about purgatory. These are the only answers within my faith that I can give you.
Please see above.
We hope JPII is in heaven and if he is then the prayers will add to his glory. If he is in purgatory they will help him to be purified. Catholics pray for the poor souls in purgatory regularly.
Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Originally posted by saint4God
is that a crescent moon she's standing on? If so, what's up with that?
Rev 12:1-2 has been interpretted to have many different meanings.
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by Raphael_UO
Originally posted by saint4God
is that a crescent moon she's standing on? If so, what's up with that?
Rev 12:1-2 has been interpretted to have many different meanings.
Oh oh oh! Never made that connection before. So Revelation gal, the good one, is Mary? Okay, I can kind of see that, that that part of Revelation has already happened. Much thanks as now the picture makes sense, including the 12 stars. The 3 1/2 years in the desert thing threw me, but that could've been the time between birth and when the 3 wise guys came to give gifts. Probably at that point they could rejoin civilation (one of the gifts being gold). Am I on track?
Originally posted by shmick25
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Symbolic scripture in heaven is always interpreted by scripture. Genesis explains who the sun, moon and stars represent in the verse above.
Gen 37: 9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
The passage above is about Joseph ruling over Jacob and over his mother and brothers. Jacob was represented by the sun, Jacob’s wife was represented by the moon and his eleven brothers were represented by eleven stars. Jacob, his mother, and his eleven brothers bowed to Joseph when they came to live in Egypt when he was made prime minister of Egypt. Joseph and the eleven brothers represent the whole house that descended from Jacob (Israel).
This woman that John sees symbolized in heaven is true Israel. It is the people that descended from Jacob (Israel) that have stayed faithful to Jehovah. John sees Israel symbolized in heaven as a woman. She is clothed with the sun and moon because those in her are descendents from Jacob and Rachel (The sun and moon in the genesis passage above). Like their parents, the chosen people of Israel are clothed with special revelation (light) from God and reflect His glory. The crown with twelve stars that is on her head represents the twelve brethren apostles from the twelve tribes of Israel that were chosen to rule over the twelve tribes of Israel and that laid the foundations for the new covenant Church.
Mat 9:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.