RCC Symbolism and it's meaning

Purgatory isn't really a place. More like a state or process of the soul. Essentially, the Catholic Church believes that no one can enter heaven unless they're pure. That's what purgatory does, it purifies. It is not hell. All who enter purgatory eventually enter heaven.

Originally posted by supercheetah
Purgatory isn't really a place. More like a state or process of the soul. Essentially, the Catholic Church believes that no one can enter heaven unless they're pure. That's what purgatory does, it purifies. It is not hell. All who enter purgatory eventually enter heaven.

But if God has the capicity to forgive sin, would that mean that you are pure? The Bible says that by his grace we are saved..

So, how does purgatory purify a soul?

Originally posted by shmick25

Originally posted by supercheetah
Purgatory isn't really a place. More like a state or process of the soul. Essentially, the Catholic Church believes that no one can enter heaven unless they're pure. That's what purgatory does, it purifies. It is not hell. All who enter purgatory eventually enter heaven.

But if God has the capicity to forgive sin, would that mean that you are pure? The Bible says that by his grace we are saved..

So, how does purgatory purify a soul?

This is one of the reasons I'm an ex-Catholic. It's not that purgatory isn't a nice idea (it lets the Church say that certain non-Christians can get into heaven), but it doesn't really make sense. Then there's non-Catholic Christianity that pretty much says that all non-Christians go to hell, which seems rather heartless to me. Sorry, I can't fathom the idea of a god that would send Gandhi to hell.

Originally posted by shmick25

Originally posted by supercheetah
Purgatory isn't really a place. More like a state or process of the soul. Essentially, the Catholic Church believes that no one can enter heaven unless they're pure. That's what purgatory does, it purifies. It is not hell. All who enter purgatory eventually enter heaven.

But if God has the capicity to forgive sin, would that mean that you are pure? The Bible says that by his grace we are saved..

So, how does purgatory purify a soul?

Hi shmick25

You have many good questions here. I will attempt to answer with the help of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

paragraph 1030: "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."

paragraph 1031: "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire." There is more to paragraphs 1031 and 1032.

Here is the scripture.....1 Cor 3:15, The New American Bible, St Joseph Edition has the explanation "the text of verse 15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this."

1 Peter 1:7
2 Maccabees 12:46

From paragraph 1032: quoting one part about prayers for the dead.

"From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God."

You also asked..

But if God has the capacity to forgive sin, would that mean that you are pure? The Bible says that by his grace we are saved..

Yes, when we are truly sorry for our sin and intend to make up for it and not sin this way again, then God does forgive us.

I have a problem with gossip. Gossip is a sin that hurts many people and has no place in the life of a Christian. To my sadness I fall many times despite being quite serious when I intend never to gossip again. So, I can be forgiven by God but, I still have that tendency to fall into error where gossip is concerned. Because I am forgiven for my sins by God, I will not go to hell, but still having this tendency to fall into sin I am not ready to meet God yet. I must be purified of these tendencies.

This is just an example. In my own life I can find many more. :shk:

Originally posted by supercheetah
That guy, Bob, across the street, can be an intercessor. The only difference between him and Mary is that Bob is still alive, and very much real.

Well another thing is you wouldn't call your neighbor Bob any of these things:

Holy, Mary,
Holy Mother of God,
Most honored of virgins,
Chosen daughter of the Father,
Mother of Christ the King,
Glory of the Holy Spirit,
Virgin daughter of Sion,
Virgin humble and poor , 
Virgin gentle and obedient,
Handmaid of the Lord,
Mother of the Lord,
Helper of the Redeemer,

Full of grace,
Fountain of beauty,
Model of virtue,
First fruit of the redemption,
Perfect disciple of Christ,
Untarnished image of the Church,
Woman transformed, Woman clothed with the sun,
Woman crowned with stars,
Gentle Lady, 

Gracious Lady,
Our Lady,
Joy of Israel,
Splendor of the Church,
Pride of the human race,
Advocate of grace,
Minister of holiness,
Champion of God's people,

Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all the earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe,

From: The Litany of Mary, Queen

Obviously some of these are real and based in scripture, but most are not and some I would personally consider to be blasphemous.



[edit on 4/3/2005 by djohnsto77]

Originally posted by mOjOm

Originally posted by shmick25


Perhaps I should clarify when using the words Esoteric and Gnostic in that I'm not talking about Herecy or Gnostic Peoples themselves. I'm using it in the basic meaning which would be Esoteric (knowledge which is unknown except by a small group of people) & Gnostic (possessing spiritual knowledge). So from my perspective and I think most people would agree, that Christianity as well as all other Religious Knowledge is very Esoteric Gnosis (Largely Unknown or Misunderstood Spiritual Knowledge). If that wasn't true then there wouldn't be so many conflicting versions which divide the majority of people on this planet. You see what I'm saying???

very good response,
as the RCC is a blend of mysticism, Gnostic, pagan & Christian thoughts
in fact the RCC acknowledges and proudly declares their difference from other Christian Churches
as they singularly have a high regard for the 'Mysteries' of Faith...!

I enjoy reading essays & stuff found @ www.marquette.edu...
"Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism" lots of titles on lots of subjects...
~~~~~~~~~~~~

that question as to a 'Sophia' ~v~ 'Mary'(Mother-of-God)
there seems to be an intent to 'weave' both Sophia & Mary -traditions-
with the idea of the 'Cosmic Mother', no?

the Revelation thing; about the woman, 12 stars, standing on moon....
xx~ I don't see a 'Mary' in that symbology...
I see the 'woman' as the matriarchial lineage,
the 12 stars being the 12 Tribes of Israel,
the 'woman' having her 'feet' on the moon most likely represents a
Lunar Calander basis governing life/festivals/rituals etc, of the people-of-the-woman
(read Jewish people here as they are the only surviving, known people,
of the 12 Tribes involved& surrounding the 'woman')
The 'woman' in travail, as in 'birthing' a 'savior' was/is both the CosmicMother and Mary...
(more than one level of meaning operating simeotaneously?)

which also entertains the concept, that the Sun-Moon-Stars of the Heavens
all of which, are secondary (i.e. surround & bow to & are servient to the woman))
to the Divine Will & the programs the Creator initiates
(like the program; to create an Israel, a line of David, a 'Christ'
= could be called 'The Cosmic Mother', program?)

~~

Originally posted by djohnsto77

Originally posted by supercheetah
That guy, Bob, across the street, can be an intercessor. The only difference between him and Mary is that Bob is still alive, and very much real.

Well another thing is you wouldn't call your neighbor Bob any of these things:

Yeah, Bob's not really a virgin. He is a pre-op transexual, though. He plans to change his name to Roberta.

Purgatory then is a house in heaven, or something else? Do the souls of the dead sleep there until the return of Christ when they are awakened?

Originally posted by southern_cross3
Here's how I know what is and isn't false:

If it agrees with the Bible, it's true.

If it does not, it's false.

And if one decides to not believe certain parts of the Bible, they might as well dismiss it all, in which case they have no faith in God, nor any belief thereof.

So I take it that you are in favor of genocide, slavery and the stoning to death of WOMEN committing adultry. All of these things are permited by your bible

Hi Mahree,

Seems like we have a running dialogue going on here. Thanks for the post.

I will attempt to answer as best as I can. In regards to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, this is pretty much documents of Church Dogma. I know that Catholics hold the authority of these up with the Bible, however they are not.

The Bible is the inspired word of God. The end of revelation clearly indicates that no one should add or remove content from the Bible. So the Bible, being the word of God is infalable and should not be altered.

The Catholic Catechism is the word of man attempting to override the word of God. I am not saying that works of Man outside the Bible can not be inspired by God, (as the Bible after all was written by man). What I am saying is that any words inspired by God will:
1) Point the way to God through Christ
2) Substaintiante and NOT contradict what the Bible already claims.

Unfortunately what you have quoted from the cathechism can not be found in the Bible. A simple well known verse that would seemingly contradict the necissity for purgatory would be: "The wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life".

Going on with what the Bible says about being saved, I will shoot off some more verses:

Acts 15:11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved"

Romans 5:21 "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. "

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. "

Ok, not trying to get too carried away, however can you see what the Bible is saying here? There is only a subtle difference between the two. The Catechism insuinates that it is possible to die without sin as stated in paragraph 1030, but the Bible clearly indicates that EVERYONE is a sinner and dies in sin.

Grace is unmerited favor. It is God's free action for the benefit of His people. It is different than Justice and Mercy. Justice is getting what we deserve. Mercy is not getting what we deserve. Grace is getting what we do not deserve. In grace we get eternal life, something that, quite obviously, we do not deserve. But because of God's love and kindness manifested in Jesus on the Cross, we receive the great blessing of redemption. Grace is God's Riches At Christ's Expense. Grace rules out all human merit. It is the product of God that is given by God, because of who He is not because of who we are. It is the means of our salvation.

So I have the question: Where is grace in the concept of purgatory?

Onto a related subject, I would like to talk about the state of the dead and the logical need for purgatory and hell.

There is a thread that I posted ages ago titled 'hell is bogus'

Firstly, let me start with the story about the local resurrection after the death of Christ:
Matthew 27:51 "51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many."

So, if when you die, you go straight to heaven, purgatory or hell, how do you explain the resurrection of these people? This verse clearly says that these people were 'asleep' i.e. in a state of nothing. If they were saints, then the majority of people (protistants and catholics) would say then their spirits would have gone straight to heaven. But think about it. Heaven is a perfect place, it will be awesome. Would it be fair of God to cast all these souls back out of heaven, back into dirty mortal bodies on a #ty corrupt world?

No, it makes no logical sense. It does make sense that because they had died believing in Christ, then as a reward they received more life on earth, back into an environment they were familiar with, to bring joy to their families and to demonstrate the power and love of God. (By the way, this is just a small scale event of what will happen at the end of time).

So quickly about hell. It says in the Bible, that God will do away with sin for eternity. Now, if he lets hell exist, so that evil souls can be tormented forever and ever that means that he has not removed evil. Again, this is not logical. The only way to remove sin would be to destroy everything that is evil, just like the Bible says God will do. Could you really be happy in heaven knowing that possibly your dad, mum brothers sisters, friends are being tourtured while you are in paradise? I am pretty sure you would not want to worship a God like this.

I have already typed too much, but I would be interested in hearing some comments.

Originally posted by shmick25

Hi again shmick25,

This is some post. I would like to point out that I am not trying to prove Catholic right and all others wrong. This is about showing, or in my small way, trying to show what I believe. It is good to see what is believed in common with others also. I'm afraid that you probably can talk circles around me. It is obvious that you know your Bible.

by shmick25: I will attempt to answer as best as I can. In regards to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, this is pretty much documents of Church Dogma. I know that Catholics hold the authority of these up with the Bible, however they are not.

I guess we will have to disagree on this point. The Catechism of the Catholic Church spells out what we believe as Catholics.

Paragraph 84, page 32: "The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing, and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."

by shmick25: The Bible is the inspired word of God. The end of revelation clearly indicates that no one should add or remove content from the Bible. So the Bible, being the word of God is infalable and should not be altered.

This is Truth. We also believe this.

by shmick25: The Catholic Catechism is the word of man attempting to override the word of God. I am not saying that works of Man outside the Bible can not be inspired by God, (as the Bible after all was written by man). What I am saying is that any words inspired by God will:
1) Point the way to God through Christ
2) Substaintiante and NOT contradict what the Bible already claims.

The Catechism is the interpretation of scripture and tradition at various councils of the Church by inspired men. It does point the way to God through Christ and does not contradict what the Bible claims.

by shmick25: Unfortunately what you have quoted from the catechism can not be found in the Bible. A simple well known verse that would seemingly contradict the necissity for purgatory would be: "The wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life".

Why do we have prayers for the dead, as in funerals?

by shmick25: Grace is unmerited favor. It is God's free action for the benefit of His people. It is different than Justice and Mercy. Justice is getting what we deserve. Mercy is not getting what we deserve. Grace is getting what we do not deserve. In grace we get eternal life, something that, quite obviously, we do not deserve. But because of God's love and kindness manifested in Jesus on the Cross, we receive the great blessing of redemption. Grace is God's Riches At Christ's Expense. Grace rules out all human merit. It is the product of God that is given by God, because of who He is not because of who we are. It is the means of our salvation.

Yes, we believe all of this.

by shmick25: So I have the question: Where is grace in the concept of purgatory?

It seems that there is a fundamental difference here. Or maybe I am misunderstanding. Are you saying that there is no hell? That everyone who dies goes immediately to heaven? Where does "free choice" come in here. Does not one have the ability to believe or not to believe in God. Does it make any difference?

by shmick25:Onto a related subject, I would like to talk about the state of the dead and the logical need for purgatory and hell.

There is a thread that I posted ages ago titled 'hell is bogus'

I guess you are saying that there is no hell.

by shmick25: Firstly, let me start with the story about the local resurrection after the death of Christ:
Matthew 27:51 "51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many."

So, if when you die, you go straight to heaven, purgatory or hell, how do you explain the resurrection of these people? This verse clearly says that these people were 'asleep' i.e. in a state of nothing. If they were saints, then the majority of people (protistants and catholics) would say then their spirits would have gone straight to heaven. But think about it. Heaven is a perfect place, it will be awesome. Would it be fair of God to cast all these souls back out of heaven, back into dirty mortal bodies on a #ty corrupt world?

I understand this to mean that no one went to heaven before Christ came. These people were the ones waiting in limbo for Christ to come before they could go to heaven.

by shmick25: No, it makes no logical sense. It does make sense that because they had died believing in Christ, then as a reward they received more life on earth, back into an environment they were familiar with, to bring joy to their families and to demonstrate the power and love of God. (By the way, this is just a small scale event of what will happen at the end of time).

These people died before Christ came. So do you mean they died believing that the Messiah would come?

by shmick25: So quickly about hell. It says in the Bible, that God will do away with sin for eternity. Now, if he lets hell exist, so that evil souls can be tormented forever and ever that means that he has not removed evil. Again, this is not logical. The only way to remove sin would be to destroy everything that is evil, just like the Bible says God will do. Could you really be happy in heaven knowing that possibly your dad, mum brothers sisters, friends are being tourtured while you are in paradise? I am pretty sure you would not want to worship a God like this.

The Bible, Jesus, teaches us how we should live. We have the 10 Commandments in the Old Testament and other teachings by Jesus in the New Testament. We have the choice to follow these teachings or not. We chose hell ourselves. Hell is where we will not see God. Why would we want to see God if we didn't worship Him or follow His teachings during our lives?

One of many Bible references on hell: The New American Bible, St. Joseph Editiion. Luke 17: 19-31 the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Purgatory then is a house in heaven, or something else? Do the souls of the dead sleep there until the return of Christ when they are awakened?

In my own words, not necessarily correct definition, this is the way I look at purgatory.

A "halfway" house on the way to heaven. If I go to purgatory I will eventually go to heaven. So going to purgatory is not a bad thing. When people pray for us after we are dead this will help to purify us and move us from purgatory to heaven. Prayers for the dead do not help anyone in hell. They have chosen not to be with God.

When we are purified of all sinful tendencies we will be able to enter heaven.

The Catechism is the interpretation of scripture and tradition at various councils of the Church by inspired men. It does point the way to God through Christ and does not contradict what the Bible claims.

Ok, this is where I will disagree.

Why do we have prayers for the dead, as in funerals?

I don't know, why do you have prayers for the dead. Christ said, 'Let the dead morn the dead'.. what do you think this means?

Yes, we believe all of this.

Then I still don't understand how purgatory and grace can fit in the same religion.

I guess you are saying that there is no hell.

Hell is not a place of torment. It is seperation from God, i.e. nothingness.

I understand this to mean that no one went to heaven before Christ came. These people were the ones waiting in limbo for Christ to come before they could go to heaven.

No, there were three people that went to heaven from the old testiment (if my memory serves me correctly). Elija, Moses (I think) and Enoch. There is no mention of anybody else going to heaven, especially once we die.

As I said, when we die, we cease to exist, just like before we were born. Nothing, Zip.

These people died before Christ came. So do you mean they died believing that the Messiah would come?

I'm not sure what you mean here.

The Bible, Jesus, teaches us how we should live. We have the 10 Commandments in the Old Testament and other teachings by Jesus in the New Testament.

So why does the RCC not follow the 10 commandment, yet instead changed the word of God to suit its own needs?

We have the choice to follow these teachings or not. We chose hell ourselves. Hell is where we will not see God. Why would we want to see God if we didn't worship Him or follow His teachings during our lives?

I think that it would be more human to put these humans out of their misery instead of torturing them forever. who will torture them anyway, seeing it says in revelation that Satan will be destroyed?

Luke 17:28 - Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Notice that it likens the last day to Sodom where god DESTROYED sodom, turning it to ash, in a similar fashion he will distroy those that rejected him at the second coming. I see no reference here to an eternal torture or hell.

Hi shmick25,

I guess this is where we come to the end of our dialogue. We seem to be down to our disagreements.

This has been a most interesting discussion for me and I thank you for taking the time to explain your beliefs.

Mahree

True. Seems you are the first catholic that I have met that actually knows what they (and their church) believe. The others are mere catholics in title.

Perhaps this will help shed some more light on the role of the Virgin Mary in the Catholic Church.

The Fifth Glorious Mystery
THE CORONATION


As Mary enters heaven, the entire court of heaven greets with joy this masterpiece of God's creation.
Mary is crowned by her divine Son as Queen of heaven and earth.
More than we can ever know the Hearts of Jesus and Mary overflow with joy at this reunion.
Only in heaven will we know the great majesty of that coronation, and the joy it gave to the angels and saints.
Even the angels, who by nature are greater than humans, hail Mary as their Queen.
Mary shares so fully in the glory of Christ because she shared so fully in His suffering.
Only in heaven will we see how central is the role of Mary in the divine plan of redemption.
The angels and saints longed for the coming of her whose heel crushes the head of the serpent.
Mary pleads our cause as a most powerful Queen and a most merciful and loving Mother.
A great sign appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Spiritual Fruit: Grace of Final Perseverance

Or this from an Orthodox Christian perspective.

I. The Virgin Mary and Eve
CHRIST proceeded forth from the Virgin Mary, as Adam had from the earth: Adam by the inbreathing of the Spirit of God—And breathed into him the breath of life;—and Christ by the coming of the Holy Spirit—the Holy Spirit shall come upon thee—was said of the Virgin Mary. Thus Christ came forth according to the likeness of Adam (Gen 2:7; Luke 1:35).

But Christ also proceeded forth accordingly to the likeness of Eve: thus Eve came forth from a father without a mother ("from the rib"), so Christ came forth from a mother without a father (she "knew not a husband"). Just as the first Adam brought forth from Eve without the participation of a woman, so Mary brought forth Christ without the participation of a man. Eve appeared only by the "seed" of a man, and Christ appeared only by the "seed" of a woman. The means whereby Eve and Christ came into being are identical: both received human nature by the power of God from one sex. At first the woman (Eve) did so from a man, and thereafter the man (Christ) did so from a woman. Thus Christ received the nature of the first Adam, the nature of all mankind, or the whole Adam from Mary, who gave Him this nature of Adam. For this reason as Adam said of Eve so can we say of Mary, and through her even of Christ: This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. Through the Virgin Mary our nature exists in Christ, the Second Adam (Genesis 2:21, 23; Luke 1:34).

Just as Christ is the Second Adam, so Mary is the second Eve. This is evident from a comparison of the temptation of Eve with the Annunciation of Mary.

Then there was a manifestation of a fallen Angel, the serpent, the devil. Here there is a manifestation of a holy Angel, Gabriel. Genesis 3:1 (Rev. 20:2) Luke 1:26.

The first promised Eve, that through her man would be as God,—ye shall be as gods. The second promised Mary that through her God would become man—He shall be called the Son of the Most High ... the Son of God. Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Genesis 3:4—Luke 1:32, 35; Matt. 1:23.

Through Eve—the fall; through Mary—salvation. When Eve was deluded and desired to be as God, she was not made God. Now God is made man so that man can in reality become divine, and first of all Mary does so, in whom He came, as being the first of all the race of man. Woman was the first to fall, and the first to be saved.

Eve was shown as one who did not trust God's commandments, who did not believe God and who longed to receive divinization by her own empirical knowledge. Mary trusted God completely; in this faith she rejected knowledge (I know not a man, and it was not necessary to know one), and she said: Be it unto me according to thy word. Then there was a fall for her [Eve], and through doubt and unbelief for all people; here there is salvation for her [Mary], and through faith for all people. Genesis 3:6—Luke 1:34, 37, 45.

Eve showed disobedience to God and to His commandment—thou shalt not eat of it (of the tree) ... she took of the fruit thereof and did eat. Mary was obedient to the will of God at the Annunciation without any doubt and she said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Genesis 2:17, 3:6—Luke 1:38.

Eve became proud in her thoughts—ye shall be as gods. Mary was the humble handmaid of the Lord, both in receiving the good tidings of the advent through her of God in the flesh, and also even before this event, for which cause He had looked upon the lowliness of His handmaiden, and it was precisely for this quality of her soul that He turned His attention to her, and for it that He deemed her worthy to be His Mother. Then through pride Eve desired to be God, and now in humility Mary is deemed worthy to receive God into herself and give Him human nature for the sake of our salvation. Genesis 3:4—Luke 1:48.

Eve was deprived of the grace of the Holy Spirit and was no longer permitted to approach the tree of life. Mary received in herself the Son of God, Life Eternal; she found grace, God; she received the salutation, Rejoice, full of grace! the Lord is with thee, and she conceived according to the word: the Holy Spirit shall come upon thee....

In these first and very important examples we see that God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Genesis 3:24—Luke 1:28, 30, 35; James 4:6.

For her sin Eve was given over to the afflictions and pains of childbearing; Mary as one without a husband and one who had not sinned, painlessly gave birth to a Son.

But it was because Eve was seduced by the sweetness of the fruit of the tree of life, that a sword pierced the soul of Mary, when she saw her Son on the tree of the Cross. Christ redeemed the sin of Eve. The rib, from which Eve was fashioned, was pierced in the second Adam and, as a sign of expitiation and cleansing of the first sin, blood and water poured therefrom. But to the Cross of her Son Mary brought her guiltless, redemptive moral affliction and suffering for the sin of Eve, because it was on account of the sin of Eve that her Son ascended the Cross. Mary suffered on account of Eve and at the very Cross itself, where the sin of Eve was washed away. Luke 2:35; John 19:34.

We see that if Christ is the second Adam, then Mary is in reality the second Eve, and if Eve was made as a help, meet for and like unto Adam (Gen. 2:18, 20), so Mary in all her qualities appeared as "help, meet for and like unto" the second Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself And in so far as the greatness of the second Adam is boundless, so too the greatness of the second Eve is holy and exalted, worthy of this Adam.

There is none among men to compare with her. At the beginning and in the middle of history, there stand two women, Eve and Mary. Eve is the mother of fallen and sinning mankind. Mary is the mother of a new, reborn mankind which is being saved. In the first there was the cause of universal evil; in the second, the cause of universal good.

and the links

rosary


Veneration of the Virgin Mary

Peace and tolerance be unto you.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all the earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe,

Queen? What the? Okay, God is the King (His kingdom). Jesus is the Prince of Peace... so Mary is...like...God's wife or something? I don't really recall any marriage, queen-status or anything like that in the Bible...

Here's a Catholic Church in Florida near Disney World (cllick pictures for link to site):

stoning your children and selling your daughters into slavery?

Originally posted by southern_cross3
Here's how I know what is and isn't false:

If it agrees with the Bible, it's true.

If it does not, it's false.

And if one decides to not believe certain parts of the Bible, they might as well dismiss it all, in which case they have no faith in God, nor any belief thereof.

Originally posted by MahreeIn my own words, not necessarily correct definition, this is the way I look at purgatory.

A "halfway" house on the way to heaven. If I go to purgatory I will eventually go to heaven. So going to purgatory is not a bad thing. When people pray for us after we are dead this will help to purify us and move us from purgatory to heaven. Prayers for the dead do not help anyone in hell. They have chosen not to be with God.

When we are purified of all sinful tendencies we will be able to enter heaven.

Thank you I think I understand. JPII may be in a halfway house at present waiting to go to Heaven when Jesus comes the second time.

Okay now I am confused again. If prayers do not help anyone in hell, does that mean instead of purgatory they can go straight to hell without any sleep? I ask because I am really confused as to where everyone waits and in what state they are. Some say they just sleep until judgement day which is when they are disbursed. And this is particularly confusing because, if when we are dead we sleep then shouldn't we all be in one place in which case prayer can help? And if some go to hell and purgatory, then shouldn't prayer help? and if some are in heaven as with where JPII is said to be, then why all the prayers for him? He is already there, no?