In reference to Mary crushing the head of the serpent instead of Jesus, one might say that the Church--the Catholic Church, mind you--has always over exemplified Mary, regarding her as divine, which scripturally is FALSE.

As to the roses, I'm sure a Da Vinci Code conspiracy enthusiast could give a few pointers on that, but as I don't believe in that, I'll leave it alone.

The Rose was a favored motif throughout the middleages and had many different meanings to different people and groups there are as many
different meanings for the rose as their are for the Pentagram/Pentacle,
an the last i saw there were someting like 300-500 meanings attributed to the Pentagram.


are you sure the top one is the Virgin? do you know what year it was done?
there was an edict around 1400 i think that said the virgin could only be depicted in blue and white. during the heyday of the cult of the Black madonna
and Height of the Magdalene cults.

The circle of stars in the second one was used frequently to symbolize the crown of stars of Sophia and wisdom/knowledge. in some circles the snake also symbolized knowledge.

it is possible that the artist was "less than orthodox" but we will probably never know.

[edit on 25-1-2005 by stalkingwolf]

[edit on 25-1-2005 by stalkingwolf]

Originally posted by southern_cross3
In reference to Mary crushing the head of the serpent instead of Jesus, one might say that the Church--the Catholic Church, mind you--has always over exemplified Mary, regarding her as divine, which scripturally is FALSE.

As to the roses, I'm sure a Da Vinci Code conspiracy enthusiast could give a few pointers on that, but as I don't believe in that, I'll leave it alone.

How would you know what is false? A rose by any other name still a rose?

[edit on 25-1-2005 by Justanotherperson]

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

are you sure the top one is the Virgin? do you know what year it was done?
there was an edict around 1400 i think that said the virgin could only be depicted in blue and white. during the heyday of the cult of the Black madonna and Height of the Magdalene cults.

Interesting.. why the colours blue and white? What do they represent? The window was made about 100 - 200 years ago. No older.

The circle of stars in the second one was used frequently to symbolize the crown of stars of Sophia and wisdom/knowledge.

who is sophia? I did read on a site that the stars may represent the 12 star signs however, there is a verse in relevation that talks about a lady coming out of heaven with a crown of 12 stars and standing on the moon. I take it that they have assumed that this lady was Mary and thus the reason for all these representations. There were many such instances of mary standing on the moon, even in some of the non catholic churches.

Some people like to try to connect the dots and say that these icons are adapted from other pagan beliefs? Any thoughts?

Originally posted by southern_cross3
In reference to Mary crushing the head of the serpent instead of Jesus, one might say that the Church--the Catholic Church, mind you--has always over exemplified Mary, regarding her as divine, which scripturally is FALSE.

The Catholic Church does not regard Mary as divine. We do honor her as the Mother of our Lord. She is not adored as the Holy Trinity is. I suggest you get hold of a copy of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" if you want to tell us what the Catholic Church believes.

Genesis 3: 14-19 The Lord said to the serpent:"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers."

The offspring of the woman is our Lord. Is Mary pregnant in this window?

edited for clarity

[edit on 1/25/2005 by Mahree]

Originally posted by shmick25
I just recently went to a catholic church and found some interesting stained glass windows. I have read a bit on the net about some of this stuff but would like some information from both sides.

Firstly there is an unusual photo of Mary with a wagon wheel. Some sites suggest it is a solar wheel. According to a catholic site they seem to dismiss it as a wagon wheel. Why would Mary be holding one of these?

Obviously it's because she's an ancient paganistic baby-eating goddess....

The bible specifically talks about Christ defeating evil not Mary. Why would they show this?

Any mary. the mother of god, has nothing at all to do with the defeat of evil then?

why the use of so many red roses around the churches next to statues of mary and baby Jesus?

I don't know the specific symbolism of the rose, although I suspect its general usage applies here. Saints and heavenly people are said to smell of roses and what not, even their corpses too, so perhaps that has something to do with it.

I recall reading a baptists account of visiting a RCC mass. He made it out like he was in the pressence of evil and strangeness.

Roman Catholics don't worship mary as a goddess. They don't worship statues as idols. They do things differently from some of those upstart protestants because they aren't literalists.

You have to keep in mind that the RCC is a church that formed shortly after the early christian community was around, in the context of paganism, hence, lots of what it does has parralells with paganism. Similiarly, lots of what the Orthodox church does has parralells with paganism. And atop all that, the religion presented in the Gospels themselves has lots of parallels with paganism. The members of the 'pre-church' early christian community would find much about RCism unfamilar, the same with the Orthodox church, and the Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, and Baptists. No one practices christianity like those communities, and no one practices christianity like the apostolic community in the time of christ.

who is sophia?

? Sophia mean's wisdom in greek. Usually 'Sophia' is the allegorical representation of it. No, RCism is not greek paganism.

I did read on a site that the stars may represent the 12 star signs however, there is a verse in relevation that talks about a lady coming out of heaven with a crown of 12 stars and standing on the moon

Revelation? You mean tht book that the RCC kept, copied and circulated, and is generally responsible for its current existence?

Here's how I know what is and isn't false:

If it agrees with the Bible, it's true.

If it does not, it's false.

And if one decides to not believe certain parts of the Bible, they might as well dismiss it all, in which case they have no faith in God, nor any belief thereof.

Originally posted by Mahree

Originally posted by southern_cross3
In reference to Mary crushing the head of the serpent instead of Jesus, one might say that the Church--the Catholic Church, mind you--has always over exemplified Mary, regarding her as divine, which scripturally is FALSE.

The Catholic Church does not regard Mary as divine. We do honor her as the Mother of our Lord. She is not adored as the Holy Trinity is. I suggest you get hold of a copy of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" if you want to tell us what the Catholic Church believes.

Genesis 3: 14-19 The Lord said to the serpent:"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers."

The offspring of the woman is our Lord. Is Mary pregnant in this window?

edited for clarity

[edit on 1/25/2005 by Mahree]

I'm not sure what you mean by divine? Cerntainly in this old church I went to, there was a room with a statue of Mary in it, with a lot of candles burning. There were many people praying in front of this statue. I've been told that Catholics do not worship Mary, however, this resembles buddists worshiping budda. Just an observation.

My Bible says this:

Genesis 3:15 - I will make you and the woman hate each other; her offspring and yours will always be enemies. Her offspring will crush your head, and you will bite their heel.

This verse said nothing about mary crushing the head of the serpent. It makes it quite clear that the womens 'offspring' does the head crushing. This picture does not indicate this.

Revelation 12:1 - Then a great and mysterious sight appeared in the sky. There was a woman, whose dress was the sun and who had the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. v2 - She was soon to give birthm and the pains and suffering of her child-birth made her cry out.

Nowhere in this scripture does it mention Mary. It takes some creative thinking to make that step.

The Roman Catholic Church is full of all sorts of symbols from many sources including pagan symbols.

Also the Catholics do think of Mary as divine at least in practice. They pray to her, think she can do miracles etc. St. Patrick's Cathedral here in Manhattan has a chapel to Mary in the back and the sign there says something like it's the most important and sacred part of the church.

The way Catholics treat Mary and saints is one of the reasons the Protestants split off from them...they do seem to border on polytheism.

So when catholics state 'we don't worship mary, we worship jesus, the trinity' they're just all lying scum right?

Whether or not Catholics 'worship' Mary, the adoration of Mary appears to be disturbingly close to worship to many Protestants, enough that mere words assuring the contrary are not sufficient for the Protestants.

Originally posted by BeefotronX
enough that mere words assuring the contrary are not sufficient for the Protestants.

So you are saying that all catholics are lying thru their teeth when they say that they aren't. Why should catholics get rid of the paganistic holdovers in their religion if protestants wont take it out of theirs?

Sophia or Sofia was the Goddess of knowledge and wisdom. She was also
associated with Venus, Isis and the other Mother Goddesses. Mary M was also
associated with Sofia and Venus. as for why blue and white were chosen white
was something about purity and the rest i dont recall right now. Many Mother
and Child depictions in Red or Black garments were believed to be representations of Mary M and child or Isis and Horus.

I do not think the majority of catholics know what half of the symbols are in their church, so even if they do worship or honor her or whatever, possibly they are not aware that it is not Biblical?

One thing I do find interesting is the holy water that catholics have. I have been wondering if there is also a link between vampires (possibly demon possessed people) and the catholics. With the crosses and holy water etc. I didn't see any garlic in the church though Makes you wonder though.

Also, another question I have is, do you think that Christ would have wanted such an institution for its church? I thought the whole reason for his ministry was to do away with all this pomp and ceremony. Why then re-introduce?

If, as you say the Catholics do have pagan roots, possibly these rituals made the transition from being a pagan out of the church to into the church quite easy? History is quite an interesting thing!

Didn't constantine mingle Roman pagan dieties with the beliefs of the church when he made it a state religion. That's why you have the names of saints taking the place of the names of the Roman pantheon on statues in the Roman Catholic church right? There is also some ancient eastern mysticism mingled in there too. Think about it, easter/Ishtar, forced abstinance, rosary, all this reflects on ancient pagan temple rites to me.

Wow, hard to believe that these posts are supposedly describing my religion.

You know what? It doesn't really matter to me where these symbols come from. The Magisterium of the Church is the interpretation of holy people under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. "This Magisterium is not superior to the the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches what has been handed on to it." A quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Holy water, for a "demon possessed people"? Come on now.

The Catholic Church is so large with so many souls that some type of organization is necessary. Jesus put Peter as leader of our Church on earth and now because of the laying on of hands and Apostolic succession, the line continues from Peter to Pope John Paul II

Hit the wrong button, will try again
edited by Mahree

[edit on 1/26/2005 by Mahree]

Originally posted by shmick25

Originally posted by Mahree

Originally posted by southern_cross3
In reference to Mary crushing the head of the serpent instead of Jesus, one might say that the Church--the Catholic Church, mind you--has always over exemplified Mary, regarding her as divine, which scripturally is FALSE.

by Mahree
The Catholic Church does not regard Mary as divine. We do honor her as the Mother of our Lord. She is not adored as the Holy Trinity is. I suggest you get hold of a copy of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" if you want to tell us what the Catholic Church believes.

You did notice that I was quoting southern cross who used the word "divine"?

quote by shmick25
I'm not sure what you mean by divine? Cerntainly in this old church I went to, there was a room with a statue of Mary in it, with a lot of candles burning. There were many people praying in front of this statue. I've been told that Catholics do not worship Mary, however, this resembles buddists worshiping budda. Just an observation.

Catholics pray many different types of prayers. One of them is called a prayer of intercession. We believe that Mary, the Mother of God, is in heaven with the Saints. The Saints include all people who have gone to heaven, not just those named. We ask The Blessed Mother and the Saints to add their prayers to ours in a prayer of intercession.

The statue and the pictures of Mary and the Saints are reminders to keep ourselves on track. I am before the statue of Mary, you see I do know this is not Mary but only a statue. If you can find anyone else who believes that statue is actually Mary I would be very surprised. I am asking Mary to pray for me and to add her prayers of intercession to mine. See...statue of Mary=a meditation device.

by shmick25
My Bible says this:

Genesis 3:15 - I will make you and the woman hate each other; her offspring and yours will always be enemies. Her offspring will crush your head, and you will bite their heel.

This verse said nothing about mary crushing the head of the serpent. It makes it quite clear that the womens 'offspring' does the head crushing. This picture does not indicate this.

But if Mary was pregnant in this picture, which I see as possible, then she is carrying in her womb the One who will do the crushing.

quote by shmick25
Revelation 12:1 - Then a great and mysterious sight appeared in the sky. There was a woman, whose dress was the sun and who had the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. v2 - She was soon to give birthm and the pains and suffering of her child-birth made her cry out.

Nowhere in this scripture does it mention Mary. It takes some creative thinking to make that step.

It seems pretty obvious to me.

[edit on 1/26/2005 by Mahree]

[edit on 1/26/2005 by Mahree]

LOL...a wagon wheel hu? Ooooooookaay.....The Catholic church ahs always treated Mary as a Deity, a Goddess.....The catholic religion is very close the Wicca in a few ways....God and Goddess.. ritual...etc...