A self-harming transgender teenager and a conflict of moral decision-making

The self harming and identity issues did not emerge until she attended public school. She fell victim to peer pressure. Something she had little exposure to. I think she was being manipulative. But I think the "friend" was manipulating her even more.

originally posted by: eletheia

Have you considered that had you been born 100 or more years ago, before science and surgery made it possible for you to lead the life you wanted ... what would you have done then?

The same thing that transgender people have done throughout all of history - just lived as the opposite gender as best as possible.

Most certainly though, I'd have done the same thing that transsexual people have done throughout all of history... committed suicide.

Of course, both of these scenarios assume that someone else didn't murder me first.

You make this seem like a choice and something people "want" to do. It was never that way for me. Several times in my life it was only a small glimmer of hope that kept me going. After about the age of 12 or 13, I had hope and knew that one day when I was 18 and got out of school I could change my name and be known as a girl instead of an androgynous "it" and that's exactly what happened. Sooner than that just wasn't possible back then.

When that came true and was realized in 1973, I then had hope with the knowledge surgery was available to make my body female(ish). It took several more years of difficult struggle before that was realized. Had my hopes been dashed during either of these periods in my life, I would be dead - full stop.

Thanks for asking a question.

As to "something in the water", that's a popular notion with no scientific evidence except to the contrary.

Being Transgender Has Nothing to Do with Hormonal Imbalance

originally posted by: Freija

You make this seem like a choice and something people "want" to do.

I some way it is a choice, because they chose not to stay how they were born?

I do know someone that 'transed' at aprox 30 yrs of age (you may need to forgive

any terminology mistakes I make) they were married with children and it came

as a shock to all that knew him, because there wasn't a hint of him not being

happy the way he was!


Lately in the news a few men around their 60's have transitioned (excluding

Caitlin Jenner) and I wonder why they have waited so long, because bluntly

they have already lived most of their lives and have on an average perhaps

only another 15 years, some of which will include surgeries/recovery time.

It was never that way for me. Several times in my life it was only a small glimmer of hope that kept me going. After about the age of 12 or 13, I had hope and knew that one day when I was 18 and got out of school I could change my name and be known as a girl instead of an androgynous "it" and that's exactly what happened. Sooner than that just wasn't possible back then.
When that came true and was realized in 1973, I then had hope with the knowledge surgery was available to make my body female(ish). It took several more years of difficult struggle before that was realized.

^^^^That^^^^ To me makes more sense than my paragraph above.

April Ashley was the first occassion that I encountered any semblance of

transgenders. I am sure that was before your time?


news.nationalgeographic.com...

news.nationalgeographic.com...

Where's that beating a dead horse gif when you need it?

I wrote this reply over a day ago in the wee morning hours but decided not to post it. It has been condensed down from three posts to hopefully just one? Why am I posting this so late after the fact? Well, because questions were asked that weren't answered and because this has nothing to do with the election and a little non-political discussion seems to be needed right now even if it is about this crap?

The sentiment has been expressed that kids that grow up trans, transition young and have the rest of their lives ahead of them makes more sense or is easier to understand than someone doing it later in life. This is to hopefully address that?

originally posted by: eletheia
April Ashley was the first occassion that I encountered any semblance of transgenders. I am sure that was before your time?

No, I didn't know who April Ashley was when I was young but of course I do now. I sure as heck knew who Christine Jorgensen was though and so did other kids. You have no idea how many times the last two years in high school I was taunted with "Hey Christine" and that's when people were being nice and on their best behavior. There's a lot of content on YouTube about both April Ashley that recently turned 80 and the late Christine Jorgensen that I have found interesting.

I do know someone that 'transed' at aprox 30 yrs of age (you may need to forgive any terminology mistakes I make) they were married with children and it came as a shock to all that knew him, because there wasn't a hint of him not being happy the way he was!

Lately in the news a few men around their 60's have transitioned (excluding Caitlin Jenner) and I wonder why they have waited so long, because bluntly they have already lived most of their lives and have on an average perhaps only another 15 years, some of which will include surgeries/recovery time.

"Transed" works for me but transitioned would be more correct although that's as equally nebulous in meaning as the word transgender. Someone can transition just socially but most, around 2/3, transition socially and at least partially medically. The other 1/3 fully medically transition with genital reconstruction i.e. sex reassignment or sex change surgery. Someone can be transgender whether they transition or not. That's what they say anyway?

I can answer your questions if you really would like to know and are open to hearing them? Doing so drags me into a highly contentious and politically charged discussion that has gotten me into some trouble here before from those within the transgender communities so I will try to tread lightly and hopefully not step on anyone's toes.

Firstly, the language used to discuss and classify these things has changed over time and some of the distinctions that were once made no longer are so nobody gets offended or excluded and because science and medicine has also gotten smarter or maybe just more PC? Without going into the different theories about the etiologies of either, most of the modern pioneering research done during the 1960's into the nature of transsexualism recognized two distinct groups of those presenting for treatment.

Later in time, definitions like "primary", "secondary", "true" and "classic" transsexualism were used to label these different groups but they no longer are. Some European medical communities still refer to early onset and late onset transsexualism as distinct things but the division in this country at least, is sociopolitically taboo. It would be an over simplification to think that age was the only factor in making these distinctions but that is a good deal of it.

Where it gets tricky for me is trying to describe these two different groups without inferring superiority of one over the other not to mention as a member of one of these groups, it is hard not to feel a bit of bias but I'll try to be as PC as possible. Trans kids and trans adults have the same problem with the same desired outcome but perhaps though without the same precursors or experience.

Today we see trans youth that in the past would have been called primary, classic or true transsexuals before the language stabilized sometime around 1980. Just by those adjectives alone, you can see why some would object to this terminology and why it is no longer used.

eletheia, and for anyone else that may be interested and reading, here is some of the information about the questions that were asked about why some older people feel the need to come out and transition. I can't speak toward anyone's motivation nor from experience but here's things as I understand them and some general info:

The median age of transition for MtF's in the early onset group is 20 years old, with a range from very young children to mid 20’s. More than 95% in this demographic transition full time before the age of 25.

As it takes time for the cross-gender identity to form, establish itself and be acknowledged for late onset transitioners, the modal age is 35 to 40 years old, the mean is between 40 to 45, with a range of early 20’s to very old age. One renowned gender surgeon in California reports the average age of her surgical patients is 48.

We see and hear a lot of stories and articles about trans youth because it makes a lot of people's heads explode and sells newspapers but they represent only about 10% to 12% of the overall number of people going through the transition process at any given time. To simplify, those that transition later in life are far more prevalent.

It is hard to not talk in stereotypes without writing a book on the subject but typically, the early onset group knows from a very young age something is fundamentally wrong. Almost without exception, their behavior, interests and personality is gender atypical in relation to their birth sex. That's where the "born this way" thing comes from because they (we) are and it is usually obvious, sometimes painfully so.

Many kids today reject or rebel against traditionally expected gender roles and may present in a non-binary or even non-gendered fashion. It's kind of a trendy thing to do but being gender non-conforming/variant/expansive is not the same thing as being actually transgender although those expressions may be signs of it or steps along the way as is coming out as gay. Some transgender children do come out as gay as a stepping stone to coming out as trans. It should go without saying that being trans is much harder and difficult to accept within one's self or reveal to others.

Again resorting to stereotypes, while the late onset group may also feel like something is indeed wrong from a young age, they are traditionally outwardly gender typical. Many are aware of their feelings but they are too difficult to face or their situation simply doesn't allow so they compensate, repress and adjust. Some grow up to be macho and hyper-masculine or join the military. Some even become Olympic athletes and many marry and start families hoping it all would make them "normal" and make these hidden, repressed and shameful feelings all go away. That sometimes works - for a while or for years. Then from out of the blue, it all boils over and they "decide" to transition. This is the most common path for the majority and it must be very difficult.

-- Didn't fit. Who was I kidding? Continued below --

-- continued from above because I suck at condensing --

Being transgender/having gender dysphoria is not a choice. Transitioning because of it is and this is probably more true for the later onset group. Transitioning can be something that someone "decides" to do but for most, the drive and desire overwhelms. In my case, and for most of the early onset group, there is little decision or choice involved. It just happens and it's how we grow up. There wasn't any other option for me. I would have rather been dead.

Why do older people transition? Because most have fought and resisted and lived with their feelings until they simply could not do so any longer. Pretending to be someone you don't feel yourself to be takes its toll. I think also as people get older they think about dying without ever living out their dream or not being able to express themselves as who they are inside motivates some as do reduced inhibitions that come with age or just not giving a damn. Some people just take longer to know themselves than others too. Caitlyn Jenner is a good example of these things. Someone like Janet Mock is just the opposite and someone I can relate to much better.

So, in rereading this, I've used a lot of generalizations that probably aren't fair. Yes personally, I think there is a difference in early and late transitioning trans people but that doesn't mean one is better, is more authentic or has it any less or more easy or difficult than the other. Being trans is hard no matter how old you are.

Unless you transitioned at 5 years old, I think every trans person wishes they could have transitioned earlier in life. I went to a new school for the 5th grade that would have been perfect for me after the things that happened in the 4th grade and maybe the bad things that happened in the 10th grade never would have?

Anyone that's waded through my long posts in this thread, give yourself a cookie. You deserve it!

a reply to: Morrad

I don't think we can judge too much. Attempting suicide can be a manipulative way of getting attention and its not a sin to recognise this in someone.

Children have rights too which is why the social worker would have ensured the child could express their identity change.

To be honest there isn't great support or education services for transgender children, a leaflet may be all she had.