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(1): Everything not existing by necessity (i.e. everything that could fail to exist) owes its existence to something external to itself. (For example, planets, lightning, and humanity each owes existence to something else.)
(2): Something exists (call it “the Universe”) which is the sum of all these things which do not exist by necessity.
(3): Therefore, the Universe owes its existence to something external to itself.
(4): Whatever exists externally to the Universe obviously cannot itself be contingent (i.e. cannot be part of that sum).
(5): Therefore, whatever exists externally to the Universe is not contingent; by definition it exists of necessity. Conclusion: Therefore, the Universe owes its existence to something that exists by necessity.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
A “Sum-styled” Leibnizian Cosmological Argument
(1): Everything not existing by necessity (i.e. everything that could fail to exist) owes its existence to something external to itself. (For example, planets, lightning, and humanity each owes existence to something else.)
(2): Something exists (call it “the Universe”) which is the sum of all these things which do not exist by necessity.
(3): Therefore, the Universe owes its existence to something external to itself.
(4): Whatever exists externally to the Universe obviously cannot itself be contingent (i.e. cannot be part of that sum).
(5): Therefore, whatever exists externally to the Universe is not contingent; by definition it exists of necessity. Conclusion: Therefore, the Universe owes its existence to something that exists by necessity.
I mentioned this to someone earlier in a thread, and realized that I have never shared this version with the ATS crew.
Normally, I would take the time to explain arguments but this one seems pretty straight forward. The Universe is the sum of all contingent things, from 1 and 2 we can draw the conclusion that the universe owes its existence to something external to itself, from 3 we can conclude that the external cause of the summation of all contingent things cannot be part of that sum, therefore we have "the Universe" owes its existence to something that exist by necessity.
Thanks for this... I'm more familiar with the Kalam cosmological arguments. Have you used this argument in practice (witnessing)? Are any of these statements controversial or more difficult to defend? Just curious of your experience using it... ETA ... I know William lane craig has been focusing some of his recent philosophy work on necessary objects and abstract objects. It's all a little over my head.
Do you have a good book or other source that details this argument?
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
(1): Everything not existing by necessity (i.e. everything that could fail to exist) owes its existence to something external to itself. (For example, planets, lightning, and humanity each owes existence to something else.)
(1): Everything not existing by necessity (i.e. everything that could fail to exist) owes its existence to something external to itself. (For example, planets, lightning, and humanity each owes existence to something else.)
If the primary assumption fails, as this one does, then the rest of the 'argument' fails. Everything exists (by necessity)! That something 'is', is evidence that it could never have been otherwise! Not anything can 'fail to exist'. If you can name it, it exists in your mind and words, if nowhere else! Fail 1.
There is not anything that is 'external/autonomous' to anything else! All that exists is 'interconnected', an inherent feature of the One Reality.
God/Universe is One! Quantum mechanics demonstrates that all the time.
Even 'classical physics' has declared that there cannot be found, anywhere, where one thing definitively leaves off and another begins!
Why are you starting your argument with "everything NOT existing" or, "everything that could FAIL to exist". rather than than everything that exists?
This is an ancient argument that is based on ignorance, that assumes to know or understand the parameters of existence. It ignores the first law of thermodynamics, that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So in reality, nothing ceases to exist, only the perimeters of identity and observation change.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: TzarChasm
Well we know you misunderstood the argument completely.
You need to go look into the idea of necessary existence.
Another objection to the argument is also quite simple: one could change the possibility premise, and flip the argument on its head:
A being has maximal excellence in a given possible world W if and only if it is omnipotent, omniscient and wholly good in W; and
A being has maximal greatness if it has maximal excellence in every possible world.
It is possible that there isn’t a being that has maximal greatness. (Premise)
Therefore, possibly, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good being does not exist.
Therefore, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being does not exist. (axiom S5)
Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being does not exist.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: TzarChasm
Then you think that all things are contingent or impossible. Impossible things don't exist. So everything that you think exist is contingent. Now take the summation of everything you think exist and lets call it the Universe. If there is a summation of contingent things the resulting entity is also contingent as without any contingent things it could not be. If it the universe is the summation of all contingent things then by definition it must owe its existence to something that is not a part of the summation of all contingent things. This would be a necessary entity.
You see by rejecting that there are no necessary things you prove that all things in your world view are contingent. So you fall right into the argument. If we take the sum of all things from your position, we would have the summation of all contingent things. This to would be contingent, but there are no more contingent things to sum as that is what we are discussing the summation of all contingent things.... So the summation of all contingent things must rely upon something necessary. The position defeats itself, and proves the very things stated in premise 1 and 2 of my argument. From 1 and 2 we draw 3 from 3 we draw 4 and from 4 the conclusion. You gave me the two premises I needed in rejecting the existence of necessary entities.
You also fail to clarify the superiority of monotheism to polytheism or deism. Your argument does nothing to address this. Odin and allah and hotep and lugh and cthulu deserve love too. Surely this argument could be applied to their benefit as well? Yet you only talk about one god. A little odd, that.
originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: TzarChasm
First off, I love when people flip the argument on its head because they don't realize what they are doing. Lets call the normal version argument 1, and your version argument 2. The ontological argument is a circular argument that is meant to inform listener that the first statement is equivalent to the conclusion. So the circularity is a good thing in this case.
Argument 1 shows that the statement It is metaphysically possible that God exist is equivalent to the statement It is metaphysically necessary that God exist.
Argument 2 shows the statement it is metaphysically possible that God does not exist is equivalent to the statement It is metaphysically necessary that God does not exist.
Argument 2's conclusion is that God is metaphysically impossible. The two arguments taken together show that God is either necessary or impossible. The problem is that if you are presenting this as an ontological disproof you need to show that God is indeed an impossible being by showing there to be a metaphysically possible world that lacks a maximally great being. If you aren't stating it as a disproof then the burden of proof would rest on me to show that it is possible God exist.
You also fail to clarify the superiority of monotheism to polytheism or deism. Your argument does nothing to address this. Odin and allah and hotep and lugh and cthulu deserve love too. Surely this argument could be applied to their benefit as well? Yet you only talk about one god. A little odd, that.
Well I don't think you can have more than one maximally great being because it would lead to contradictions in reality. So that is why I reject polytheism in this argument. Nor do polytheistic religions describe there Gods as maximally great, obviously there may be an exception I am not aware of. I talk about 1 God because I think that the history around Jesus and the rise of Christianity are extremely strong reasons to believe the Abrahamic God to be the one true God. Then we come to the idea of creation needs to be ex nihilo from our perspective. This rules out a large number of religions.
....in philosophy you have the idea of necessary entities.
If the universe were eternally expanding and contracting then we would still be in a state of thermodynamic equilibrium, we aren't,
so again it seems most likely that the universe is not eternal.
You have an idea, not a fact.
Time symmetry, an oscillating model of the universe, these are not facts, and have nothing to do with the question of the existence of "God".
Can you give me example of an extant "state of thermodynamic equilibrium"? Does it, or has it ever existed in our universe?
If that is true, then neither is "God" eternal, because "God" is the sum total of all that is. If all things exist only out necessity, then so does God, if it exists. If all things in our universe exist out of necessity, like "me", then God has needs, needs me to exist, and is not a whole entity.
(1): Everything not existing by necessity (i.e. everything that could fail to exist) owes its existence to something external to itself....(For example, planets, lightning, and humanity each owes existence to something else.)
...
It is phrased that way because sound arguments must come from true premises. Can you give an example of something that doesn't fail to exist?
I mentioned all of that to explain that irrespective of which model of the universe you choose you are faced with the problem of a finite universe.