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Nicola Sturgeon moves Scotland a step closer to indyref2 with Independence Referendum Bill

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posted on Oct, 13 2016 @ 05:39 PM
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a reply to: djz3ro

Seems a lot of people are very good at second guessing and surmising exactly why millions of people voted the way they did back in September 2014.

Strange they seem to be the self same people who allege that everyone who voted for Brexit did so for racist or xenophobic reasons.

The FACT remains that Scotland voted to remain in the EU.
EU membership is for the UK and not the constituent nations / regions that make up the UK.
That is why is was a UK referendum on EU membership and not four separate referendums.

Its pretty simple really.

Does Scotland want yet another referendum on independence?
I'd say that that the figures I see being bandied about suggests not much has changed really since September 2014.

Sturgeon's simply continuing with her agenda keeping Scottish Nationalism at the forefront of the news headlines.

I'd suggest her party would be best served getting on with using what powers they have for the betterment of the Scottish people as a whole and not just pandering to the Nationalists.

Classic deflection tactics??

But hey, what do I know.




posted on Oct, 13 2016 @ 05:39 PM
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a reply to: djz3ro

I still get conflicting stories about agriculture in Scotland. One minute it looks like it would be better staying in the UK, next leaving and being a part of the EU, then just being independent and sorting it out themselves, then back to the start.

It just seems impossible to get to the real truth of the matter.



posted on Oct, 13 2016 @ 06:47 PM
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originally posted by: Freeborn
Seems a lot of people are very good at second guessing and surmising exactly why millions of people voted the way they did back in September 2014.

Strange they seem to be the self same people who allege that everyone who voted for Brexit did so for racist or xenophobic reasons.



It's funny because you seem to be trying to tar me with that brush and i'm not sure why.



posted on Oct, 13 2016 @ 06:48 PM
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originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: djz3ro

I still get conflicting stories about agriculture in Scotland. One minute it looks like it would be better staying in the UK, next leaving and being a part of the EU, then just being independent and sorting it out themselves, then back to the start.

It just seems impossible to get to the real truth of the matter.


That's something th No campaign was counting on last time, confusion. That's why the landowners were campaiging so heavily for Better Together, the E.U. Funding.



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 02:14 AM
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originally posted by: latic
a reply to: djz3ro

The SNP campaigned the last vote was once in a life time.

.


No they didn't.



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 02:24 AM
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Krankie is making a fool of herself and Scotland in general.

Wakeup people and get rid of this divisive vindictive SNP government.
edit on Fri, 14 Oct 2016 02:30:55 -0500302America/ChicagoFriday4 by rigel4 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 02:26 AM
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originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Soloprotocol



We're are trying to leave but for some crazy reason Westminster doesn't want us to go...Now i wonder why that could be.?


Err, the last time I checked it was the Scottish people who didn't want to go.

Can't you remember that last exercise in self-determination you had way, way back in September 2014?

Seems the same people who refused to accept the democratic process back then are refusing to accept it now with regards to leaving the EU.

Sadly it seems the constant whining and moaning and hate speech from The Nats has finely begun to wear the rest of the UK down......many now don't really care what Scotland does.
Personally I find that very, very sad.



Given the xenophobia of the EU Leave campaign I think describing the 'Nats' as using hate speech is bit ironic. There has been 30+ years of whining and moaning about our EU (and precursor) membership.



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 02:38 AM
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originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Ohanka



The SNP confuses me.

Seems they want their Independence and Sovereignty so they can immediately surrender it to the EU. Quite strange.


I think that about sums it up quite nicely.


a reply to: Soloprotocol



That was just a movie, made by and starring Mel Gibson. Not real world.


Honest?
I think you should tell some of your countrymen that.



It would be interesting to see a ratio of pro-Indy posters using a Braveheart meme and anti-Indy posters claiming that they get used.

I genuinely cant remember the last time I saw one getting used seriously, but every thread on Independence seems to have multiple posters claiming the pro Indy Scots are stupid and believe Braveheart is real.



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 04:57 AM
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originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: djz3ro

The thing is, the Scottish independence referendum was done KNOWING the UK had a vote coming up about leaving the EU. Scotland decided to stay in the UK.

IF Scotland gets another independence referendum, it will set a new low bar of "if we don't like what our country voted AS A WHOLE, we'll just have another vote until we get the results WE want."


You are wrong on so many levels.

Firstly, the Tory manifesto that they got elected on stated that they WANTED TO REMAIN IN THE SINGLE MARKET. They have no mandate for a Hard Brexit. Secondly, the SNP manifesto stated THAT THE SNP WOULD HOLD ANOTHER REFERENDUM IF SCOTLAND WERE TO BE DRAGGED OUT OF THE EU AGIANST ITS WILL. The Tories were elected on 36%, the SNP on 47%. The people of Scotland knew what they were voting for and they saw through the xenephbic attitudes of the Leave camp due to teh failure to deliver anything on the Vow. Hell, even DC knew what was going on, hence why he jumped ship...not to mention farage and Johnson.

The Better Together camp also argued that by remaining in the UK was the only way to guarantee EU single market access for Scotland. That turned out well didnt it?

Scotland entered into the Act of the Union under the guise of an equal partnership. That equal partnership does not exist and hasnt since its inception.

The other fable often touted is that Scotland would be broke because they have a £15billion defecit. If any of you, who are on here with the mantra of denying ignorance take the time to look at the GERS figures that are created in London, by London on Scotlands behalf, will soon see that Scotlands defecit is actually realistically around half that...and thats without ANY financial authority. Clearly 300 years of Londons financial ownership of Scotland has benefited Scotland so well.

Scotland is one of Europes wealthiest nations in terms of renewables, Oil and Gas, Life Sciences etc. Yet we are dreadfully mismanaged in terms of finance. Scottish Whisky exports that leave through English ports are not classed as Scottish exports. Those same companies with HQs in London, are not counted towards Scotlands income. This is just one example. Thats not to mention the billions in Oil listed as an 'undisclosed region' on GERS. r the fact that Norway profited to £5 BILLION in the Oil downturn, yet Scotland profited to £6 MILLION, even though we produced 50% of the amount of oil Norway did. Why? Because the UK government has continually mismanaged oil. I mean, honestly...just Google the Mcrone Report for god sake.

Mcrone Report

The idea that Scotland has to accept what we are told by a government in London that Scotland did NOT vote for is undemocratic. It is also undemocratic to not allow a second referendum on independence when the SNP were voted in on that promise in 2015 with Europes largest share of percentage votes of any political party per popultaion.

Yet the Scots are expected to accept the democratic will of Brexit which is destroying and will ultimately destroy the finances of this nation.

Instead of slandering the Scots with closet racism, and demanding walls be built and tunnels to escape, why dont you all start opening your eyes to what is going on infront of you?

Do any of you actually understand why TM wants to abolish the ECHR? Are any of you even aware of what the ECHR protects you against?

A surge in nationalism in Scotland is seen as devisive and abhorent, yet the surge in British Nationalism is seen as something to be marvelled at...even the BBC has amended its Charter to promote British Nationalism. Our state run media is now full swing Britishness that wer are all forced to pay for. It is beyond rediculous.

The people of Scotland, who want a better future, outwith Westminster and want to build a country that their children and grandchildren can develop on their own merits will hopefully close this failed political union, and those who are unhappy at the democratic will of the people can leave. I am sure the English with their ever increasing hate crimes against foreigners will embrace you all like they have the Europeans.

And please, take off the rose tinted glasses and see Brexit for what it is, a complete spin on nationalist nostalgia from a by-gone era...the dream that the UK can rule the waves again and become the next global super power by building a Yacht and having the tories steer the ship into ruin and despair...its not all bad though, we will still have Marmite!!!!



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 05:02 AM
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originally posted by: rigel4
Krankie is making a fool of herself and Scotland in general.

Wakeup people and get rid of this divisive vindictive SNP government.


Stop spinning the s*it the tory yoons what you to spin. You claim the SNP are devisive? What about the Leavers or the other political parties who promote 'Britishness'?

I am going to guess your not Scottish/dont live in Scotland? If you do, you clearly watch too much TV...your last sentence is not representative of the mentality in Scotland. It is representative of the Daily Mail/Express and the right wing UKIP, i mean Tory party!



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 05:03 AM
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You can't just have a referendum when you don't like the outcome of the previous one. Its ridiculous, I wish she would just see sense and let it go. It was a once in a lifetime vote and that is it.

I also voted out of Europe, I love my country. Lived in Scotland my whole life apart from airforce service and holiday in Scotland too. It is time to just get on with life.
edit on 14-10-2016 by alienscot1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 05:09 AM
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originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: djz3ro

Seems a lot of people are very good at second guessing and surmising exactly why millions of people voted the way they did back in September 2014.

Strange they seem to be the self same people who allege that everyone who voted for Brexit did so for racist or xenophobic reasons.

The FACT remains that Scotland voted to remain in the EU.
EU membership is for the UK and not the constituent nations / regions that make up the UK.
That is why is was a UK referendum on EU membership and not four separate referendums.

Its pretty simple really.

Does Scotland want yet another referendum on independence?
I'd say that that the figures I see being bandied about suggests not much has changed really since September 2014.

Sturgeon's simply continuing with her agenda keeping Scottish Nationalism at the forefront of the news headlines.

I'd suggest her party would be best served getting on with using what powers they have for the betterment of the Scottish people as a whole and not just pandering to the Nationalists.

Classic deflection tactics??

But hey, what do I know.



Clearly not much! Yes it was a UK wide vote but what you FAIL drastically to realise is that Scottish Law and other devolved matters are intrinsically intertwined with the EU. By forcing Scotland to leave the EU against the vote in Scotland means the UK government has to change Scottish Law which is against the Act of Union. It nullifys the act.

Scotland was allowed to keep devolved issues such as Law and Eductaion etc 300 years ago. EU law is part of Scottish Law. For Westminster to force change is in contravention of the Sewel convention.

This EU vote is more than just 4 nations as one, it about the democtraic will of those nations as laid down in a 300 year old political union.

The undoing of Scotland and England is not the SNP. Its the bloody Tories and the Better Together.



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 05:25 AM
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originally posted by: alienscot1
You can't just have a referendum when you don't like the outcome of the previous one. Its ridiculous, I wish she would just see sense and let it go. It was a once in a lifetime vote and that is it.

I also voted out of Europe, I love my country. Lived in Scotland my whole life apart from airforce service and holiday in Scotland too. It is time to just get on with life.


Do you realise how rediculous that sounds?

It has nothing to do with we dont like the outcome of the last one. It has to do with being elected democratically on the promise that should Scotland be forced to change its laws and suffer financial instability at the hands of being pulled out of the worlds biggets single market AGAINST ITS WILL that we should have another say on whether we want to pursue our own path. No one, bar the scottish people have a right to say otherwise.

The SNP after the 2014 vote respected the outcome...hence why we are still in the Union...and if the vote had been a remain vote, Indyref2 would not be on the cards as the manifesto promise was specifically related to being pulled aout against our will which is WHAT HAPPENED.

Your statements contradict your own wishes.

It was nvere a once ina lifetime vote. It was stated often enough, Google It...that unless there was a material change in circumstances that it would be once in a generation. And now there has been a drastic change in material circumstance.



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 05:44 AM
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Scotland's First Minister Mr Salmond stated "My view is this is a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in a lifetime, opportunity for Scotland."

I don't understand where returning to our own laws and adjusting them and where the financial instability will come from, just being pulled out of Europe. The single market countries can still trade with us and other countries will too.

I am just tired of us going nowhere, the longer we take the less confident other countries are of us.



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 05:54 AM
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Personally, i find it hilarious. All the polls post Brexit, since a new indy referendum was first mooted, clearly show increased support for Union (Scots only polled).

Let Sturgeon have her 2nd once in a lifetime referendum. When she loses again, the topic is put to bed for a long long time. And before any Nationalists tr to ridicule that, no one would support a third referendum.

Both Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davison actually spoke a lot of sense about this yesterday - particularly Ruth when she stated that Sturgeon appears to have forgotten that she is the leader of all Scotland, not just the Nationalists.

Frankly though, another referndum would be democracy in action - and that is a good thing, no?



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 05:54 AM
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originally posted by: alienscot1
Scotland's First Minister Mr Salmond stated "My view is this is a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in a lifetime, opportunity for Scotland."

I don't understand where returning to our own laws and adjusting them and where the financial instability will come from, just being pulled out of Europe. The single market countries can still trade with us and other countries will too.

I am just tired of us going nowhere, the longer we take the less confident other countries are of us.


The key word there is opportunity. He was was saying we might not get another chance.

The SNP nor too my knowledge any other part of the yes campaign has ever said that they would stop seeking independence.



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 05:58 AM
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originally posted by: Flavian
Personally, i find it hilarious. All the polls post Brexit, since a new indy referendum was first mooted, clearly show increased support for Union (Scots only polled).

Let Sturgeon have her 2nd once in a lifetime referendum. When she loses again, the topic is put to bed for a long long time. And before any Nationalists tr to ridicule that, no one would support a third referendum.

Both Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davison actually spoke a lot of sense about this yesterday - particularly Ruth when she stated that Sturgeon appears to have forgotten that she is the leader of all Scotland, not just the Nationalists.

Frankly though, another referndum would be democracy in action - and that is a good thing, no?


Any poll I have seen have either shown a small increase in support for independence or no significant change.

Can you provide a link showing an increase in support for the Union?



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 06:02 AM
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Scottish GDP looks healthy just now but I can't find a protracted one, can anyone help on that?
edit on 14-10-2016 by alienscot1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 06:03 AM
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a reply to: jrmcleod

All UK law is intrinsically intertwined with the EU, not just Scottish law. Stop cherrypicking to try and prove a point and just be honest about it. Personally, i don't mind Scotland having another referendum but lets be honest this time round, eh?

The simple fact is that if Scotland had won the independence referendum last time, it would a failed state today (like Greece). Scotland's own latest figures show a £14 billion black hole in public finances that would mean an independent Scotland would have a major choice to make - slash all services or have serious tax rises. I can't imagine that either would lead to relection for the Scots Nats but that would be for the Scots (you) to decide.

Oil revenue may increase in future when cheaper refinement and extraction techniques are perfected - if that happens, Scotland will be rolling in it (at least for around 50 years). However, on current market conditions since your last referendum, you would be broke. That is a fact. The Nats can deny it all they want, but the information is available to all if only they can be bothered to look.

As to the EU, both Donald Tusk (EU President) and Jean Claude Juncker have both said Scotland would have to reapply. Given the fact that you are stony broke at the moment, you would not be rushed into membership - you would have to go through the same process as all other members. This Scot Nats claim that they would get automatic membership is simply not true, confirmed by the EU themselves. It is as disingenuous as all this Brexit lot seeming to think they will still have access to the single market.



posted on Oct, 14 2016 @ 06:06 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot

Hi, no problem.

Daily Record

That is the first one i found (following reading) but there are actually plenty more out there, one from last week. That link is not the best as it actually shows no change whatsoever!
edit on 14-10-2016 by Flavian because: (no reason given)



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