There are only two things you can control, your thoughts and your actions..

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

Can you please answer this question?
Why is there any need to still the mind? For what purpose? Do thoughts bother you?

And here is another video.

Please no more videos ! Where is that brown bag ?

The mind was meant to be under control of the Will. Thoughts that are allowed to imposed themselves uninvited on the mind turn human beings into products ( I don't want to say idiots)

It is therefore our duty to learn to control thoughts so that we can take control and do our will ; which is also the universal will. Once attuned to it, you may call yourself an adept.

a reply to: crowdedskies

There is no need to control thought or stop thought when thoughts are seen to be happening because they are realised not to be yours or anything to do with you. Thoughts are no different from clouds in the sky - I am not a cloud - I am the sky.
No one is thinking - thought just happens - it is easy to recognise this - just watch where the next thought appears - you are merely the witness of whatever is arising.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

yes that would be true if we walked about with our heads in the clouds, but thoughts don't "just" happen, there is a cause to every effect, just because we don't know the reason doesn't mean that it doesn't have one, to think that you are at the pinnacle of the existence of human kind is very presumptuous, not to mention naive. you say that thoughts "just" happen, when you put the word "just" into the argument, your argument loses any validity.

originally posted by: Davg80
a reply to: Itisnowagain

yes that would be true if we walked about with our heads in the clouds, but thoughts don't "just" happen, there is a cause to every effect,

If there is a cause to every effect then it must go right back to the big bang.
It is like smashing the white ball into all the coloured balls when a break happens in snooker - as soon as the white ball is struck all the movement of the other balls will move according to the original cause. No coloured ball moves by its own volition. There is no one in the balls choosing.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: crowdedskies

There is no need to control thought or stop thought when thoughts are seen to be happening because they are realised not to be yours or anything to do with you. Thoughts are no different from clouds in the sky - I am not a cloud - I am the sky.
No one is thinking - thought just happens - it is easy to recognise this - just watch where the next thought appears - you are merely the witness of whatever is arising.

Do you really believe what you are saying ?

So your welfare , job prospects , aspirations, plans, objectives , etc are not of your making ? They are not the product of your thoughts ? Are you trying to wind us up ?

Do you not realise that thoughts (under the will) are what creates your environment ? It is what gives you the power to change your environment . By learning to control thoughts, you are taking control of your life and destiny.

You seem to think that thoughts are just passing and do not originate from your mind. That is crazy and so are the people on your selected youtube videos.

If there is one thing that Youtube has achieved it's to put into prominence a bunch of deranged and misguided people who see themselves as spiritual teachers. Some go round telling their disciples that nobody thinks; that thoughts are happening but have no connection with them. I imagine that those "spiritual teachers" are incapable of looking after themselves - probably sitting all day long and having people fussing over them , feeding them and giving them money. After all, if they cannot think, how can they go about fending for themselves

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Yes I believe that there is cause to every effect. What caused the big bang, possibly a sun from another universe collapsing on itself and causing another universe to open up. That's my theory anyway.

a reply to: crowdedskies

Very true each persons attachments of concepts about the world itself and what is contained in it is what keeps it perpetuating onward under the same systems that never seem to go away just change names and faces as people die enslaved to those illusions or delusions of conceptual being reality.

Sure it may seem like oh no this that and the other in all of those conceptual bubbles one is clinging too... but place the mind elsewhere and everything else in the entire universe ceases to exist until the attachment of others to "you" and them come crashing the party en-mass.

So what is there to escape from after escaping oneself? Hell even hermits had difficulty escaping into mountain caves 10's of thousands of years ago. So the best thing to do is point that this nonsense is not what we should be clinging to in forming it in perpetuation nor teaching others to cling to it in perpetuation as what ease does it bring anyone other than the systems in which the perpetuation of it benefit?

Renunciation of the world means just that; it nor anyone in it is welcome that brings concepts of bondage and slavery into it caring only for basic needs to survive in order to do one thing... point that those conceptual attachments are the problem so investigate where they arose from and see they were never a part of the self but somehow became a self and there is no need to support such things and eventually, they disappear as the mind becomes vacuous and all encompassing like space itself, and matter is only form balancing what is already formless.

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: crowdedskies

Very true each persons attachments of concepts about the world itself and what is contained in it is what keeps it perpetuating onward under the same systems that never seem to go away just change names and faces as people die enslaved to those illusions or delusions of conceptual being reality.

Sure it may seem like oh no this that and the other in all of those conceptual bubbles one is clinging too... but place the mind elsewhere and everything else in the entire universe ceases to exist until the attachment of others to "you" and them come crashing the party en-mass.

So what is there to escape from after escaping oneself? Hell even hermits had difficulty escaping into mountain caves 10's of thousands of years ago. So the best thing to do is point that this nonsense is not what we should be clinging to in forming it in perpetuation nor teaching others to cling to it in perpetuation as what ease does it bring anyone other than the systems in which the perpetuation of it benefit?

Renunciation of the world means just that; it nor anyone in it is welcome that brings concepts of bondage and slavery into it caring only for basic needs to survive in order to do one thing... point that those conceptual attachments are the problem so investigate where they arose from and see they were never a part of the self but somehow became a self and there is no need to support such things and eventually, they disappear as the mind becomes vacuous and all encompassing like space itself, and matter is only form balancing what is already formless.

It just happens that it is the "material" world we were incarnated into. Whether it is illusional or not makes no difference. We are here to accept and take on the challenges. Controlling the thoughts means making them happen under the will. It is like having an army of Centurions and Legionaires under our command rather than a collection of little men running in different direction (uncontrolled thoughts)

Now, if we were to suddenly find ourselves in a different dimension, all thoughts would indeed lose their conceptual basis. In fact , they would all die a sudden death as we try and establish what our predicament is. First we would observe the environment (are we breathing ? How fast can we travel? do we have a physical shape or plasmic shape and so on. Once we have established our predicament, our Will takes over to reach the first goal that we set . Perhaps , the first goal might be to seek out life. Depending on our Will , our thoughts are then set into motion to achcieve what we are Willing.

Therefore, irrespective of of attachments or environment , thoughts should be at the service of the Will. Again I say, thought control exercise helps because it stops petty , inconsequential thinking from obscuring our objectives .

a reply to: crowdedskies

Therein lay your problem... it's like immigrating to a foreign country and instead of just observing you start subjecting the new to the old. How many times must one make coffee without thinking about coffee in the entire process? Ask an itch on a dogs ass who kicks the leg.

Objective needs no subjective, a mind is already a slave to the objects flashing through the senses... this does what? Formation at the potter's wheel still stuck in conceptual ignorance of contact.

Each 12 links of causation that lead to birth and death can and should be broken then where does birth and death lay when the middle sees the entire process clearly arising and passing arising and passing in infinity and the only one that keeps turning the wheel is one's own attachment or bondage to it and escape? That is liberation, that of course does not mean any of it ceases it just means one's role in that entire cycle changes impermanence is the only permanence... and impermanence is what gives rise to the entire mass of suffering from doing what? clinging, grasping and judging anything and everything as separate.

The Dog's ass scratches itself the itch has nothing to do with it, as that's what lifted the leg... it's task is already done.

originally posted by: crowdedskies
Therefore, irrespective of of attachments or environment , thoughts should be at the service of the Will. Again I say, thought control exercise helps because it stops petty , inconsequential thinking from obscuring our objectives .

"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills." — Arthur Schopenhauer.

When you consider, I mean REALLY deeply consider what Schopenhauer was alluding to, you will come to realise that you cannot even truly control what you will.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: crowdedskies
Therefore, irrespective of of attachments or environment , thoughts should be at the service of the Will. Again I say, thought control exercise helps because it stops petty , inconsequential thinking from obscuring our objectives .

"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills." — Arthur Schopenhauer.

When you consider, I mean REALLY deeply consider what Schopenhauer was alluding to, you will come to realise that you cannot even truly control what you will.

I bought myself two volumes of Schopenhauer more that 20 years ago. Midway through the first volume , I decided that I had nothing to gain from it. Everything written was very clear, yet there was nothing that I could benefit from.

To use a phrase such as "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills" is just a play on words; a riddle that cannot be solved and is only there to create a knot on a string. In fact , it has no meaning at all . It is like saying ;" I cannot eat what I eat"

originally posted by: crowdedskies
I bought myself two volumes of Schopenhauer more that 20 years ago. Midway through the first volume , I decided that I had nothing to gain from it. Everything written was very clear, yet there was nothing that I could benefit from.

Different philosophies will resonate with different people.

To use a phrase such as "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills" is just a play on words; a riddle that cannot be solved and is only there to create a knot on a string. In fact , it has no meaning at all . It is like saying ;" I cannot eat what I eat"

I disagree. It's not really a play on words or a riddle. And it does have meaning. While it is of course open to interpretation, my own interpretation is as follows: you can take action towards satisfying your desires, but you cannot control what you desire.

That point rings true in this very thread. Take for example your earlier assertions that through practice, one can learn to control their thoughts. You may be able to control your thoughts, but you cannot change your desire to do so. This desire to control your thoughts is out of your control — whether you act on it or not.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

yes you can control desires, desires are only a product of your environment and society, take someone out of their environment change their desires.. i think control maybe too strong a word to use for thought though now on further contemplation, if we can
concentrate our thoughts on certain subjects we can influence a type of thinking but even that type of thinking will bring random thoughts of that path of thinking..

Change will happen when there is passion or urgency - but no one can make passion or urgency happen.
This 4 minute video examines what happens in the brain when 'change' is hoped for.

If there is a belief that there is a 'you in there' doing something then this video will not be heard!!

There is nothing 'you' can do about this because there is no one 'in there' doing anything - the play button will be clicked or it will not be clicked.
Distressing thought will drop away when thought is understood for what it is. Thought cannot be controlled but it can be investigated - in the video Paul Smit takes a look at thought.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Think assessment of what could be mean by "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills" has value, all of the assessments not only the philosophical trap crowdedskies sees it as but also what you see it as too, the nice thing is debate can occur, Crowded is likely more of the practical sort; sounds nice... but it won't remind you to check if your shoe is untied.

Experience though has shown that one can change one's desires, so I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of what it means to you personally as it means so very many things to each individual. Desire is formed out of attachments has become habit from sowing the seeds to attach to whatever it is... some attachments are so strongly impressed that they follow an individual into the next lifetime from the previous; of course, depending on the intent it can become cause to rebirth in a different form. Not that that is a bad thing someone addicted to sex may enjoy a form that has a lot of it and that may give rise to dispassion for sex in the next incarnation so they will progress beyond that attachment.

Fortunately as the human form goes; all of those attachments can be undone in progression... we are taught humanity is the highest life form and that nothing is beyond some creative force getting labeled a god. It is obviously a system that places limitations and obviously not everyone agrees with those assessments even at times in histories of various places it was law and speaking otherwise meant death... so control is the factor and control ensures that whatever programming that keeps the status quo going in the system and predictable is what is to be desired regardless whether there's more to the picture or not.

"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills" this speaks to me of that control, a man can murder or not murder no one but himself holds that power but in murdering other will, will see that he is punished for doing so... so his will is his own but not his actual property where responsibility to others than himself enters the picture making it seem as there is no free will, some on this forum have gone so far to suggest that there isn't even such a thing as free will due to the very consequences that prevent doing as one wills freely without some consequence.

Since Schopenhauer was Buddhist it is likely that "Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills" was his response to karma or cause and effect when one's will goes from mind and is put into action.

Of course, it goes even deeper when body, speech and mind are taken into account meditation is designed to do one thing and one thing only: Master or train one's own mind. To make it work wholly for you like a tool, if it works against you in anyway shape or form? It is not a tool of any use, if it works for others not oneself, it is only a tool being constantly borrowed and until upon return no telling the condition in which it will be.

It eventually becomes like a saw that never gets turned off after childhood, the senses are then constantly throwing wood randomly at it's blade... not exactly a safe thing to be doing, so one takes to mind training. The saw is turned off and only turned on to perform an act of skill in it's usage, otherwise it serves no other purpose and many without such training have to get the mind out of the way of itself to perform anything at all... like a salesman with a foot in the door wearing iron shoes.

Such a mind is stressful, painful, it drags you anywhere and everywhere it wants to go the silly thing? People call that damned runaway train their's a self something of value when it's full on diarrhea that won't quit until you resolve it.

Place that damned thing where you want it to be each and every single time, don't chase it around if it moves off yank it back... keep this up and eventually it grows in strength, endurance and actually that thing called a will shows up. There isn't any will before then it is a want being expressed deludedly as a need. Denial of what it says it needs or wants is the next step yet both placing and denying it can occur in training all at once... an object of meditation and not moving at all while just sitting there. Yeah this is where strength of resolve comes into play, you resolve ok... I am not going to move for a solid hour and each time mind goes wee weee wee off of the object yank it back to it over and over. Yeah it'll seem like you're thirsty yank, it'll seem like the oven is on yank, oh this itch is going to kill me yank.

That's the process eventually that asshole of a mind calms down becomes light and easy goes to work where you want to put it... keep it up off the cushion in daily life let the eyes see what needs doing and the mind doesn't have to comment on it at all eventually it remains in pure quiesce until something needs communicating. Wholly objective and unmoved by anything at all that could rise in subjective experience... everything improves the mind focused on taste fully tastes, the mind focused on the skin feels the air, the eyes catch every single thing passing in front of them without distraction, the ear hears thoughts not one's own as those minds think on oneself... this can become just as annoying as one's own thoughts once where but do not make them a subject of one's consciousness just as you made the one's considered "your" thought not worthy of a subject and they too will disappear with practice as all of them blend together in one undifferentiated mass and vanish unless one chooses to focus on it...

Just be aware that these various powers that arise at that level are just a hindrance to further progress, I urge yourself and others not to use or abuse them but keep going... those that have abused them or continue too are what keeps the idea that gods etc exist separate and are special in some way instead of equal. If someone has 5 channels on a TV more than you do neither one of you ceases to be a living being in equality. They are natural and nothing special to get attached too and will only do the exact same thing to oneself and others as if one never even began training the mind to begin with.

Eventually pure equanimity will result the task done, but yet there is still life to live... body speech and mind free and at ease? What else can one do but try to bring others to the same condition of ease, even if it is just a simple smile or a kind word.

Take care.

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills"

This statement is very clear - will or intention arises - there is no one 'in there' choosing intention.
Until it is realised that there is no one choosing, there will be no freedom from mind. Guilt and blame will be the condition until it is realised that there is no one doing anything. When it is realised, compassion and awe will arise.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Then who is experiencing compassion and awe as it arises.

I know you're speaking of the undifferentiated space dwelling in the all unbound and flowing through everything as energy itself into and out of any form and well since we are chained to form by others not oneself still attached to this corpse we drag around then of course allowing the expression to flow through oneself is just as natural as wind through the reeds and trees... directing the mind to perform work that needs accomplishing or sitting in the all and yay going through death again is not very compassionate to those still attached to ones form that continues rebirth from the immortal womb maybe when those attached are able and can let go and feel at peace then dissolution will occur but until then it is emmination after emmination with multiple realities of ego and self concepts and constructs that do not experience base reality beyond all of that keeping it going.

Of course this occurs from the hottest and coldest hells on up to the many different heavens the difference is those around you match their highest aims or lowest lows and well what the hell can you do awake to all of them except kindly point when asked while the state of hells or heaven doesn't even matter outside of duality... sure some other beings want to show you just as much compassion and empathy form all the work and well some of them just want or desire so much of you that it turns into a tug of war between worlds and well until resolution ir becomes that place of purgatory but there's no suffering there just a middle ground attempting to help as many people resolve as possible in as many realms as possible.

That's been my observation whether the information given as a subject having a foot in both is seen beyond rote grasping and known with direct personal experience makes all the difference... it's like asking someone if they've ever eaten a cookie and they say yes but then asked every kind of cookie? And someone says a cookie is a cookie.

I urge you to move past the non-differentiation attachment of the all as a self expression as it will trap you like a hungry ghost unaware it has become an attachment... you've a unique personal expression to share from that experience or expression of the all as a gift; we all do at birth but it gets covered up by the conceptual load... if it wasn't meant to manifest as a personality then babies would be robotic and none of us would ever be here as an incarnation. We would be one conglomerate mass and well outside of form isn't that all mind is already anyway... Dust and echoes yet we can experience without any echo of the dust not subjected nor slave but free to simply experience and how we express that experience that others have placed effort into makes all the difference between expression of the all when in form... until dissolution of form as well. You've been parroting yourself and the same concepts as a subtle rhetorical attachment for awhile now Itsnowagain; I'm not sure whom you're trying to convince of it being truth anymore... but if you've no doubt and this line of reasoning is your best expression of it so others can see it too so it bears repeating like a mantra then my apologies and please carry on... and thanks for your pointing.

Currently getting distracted by astral projections wanting to suck me into a different realm... their intent is very strong and doesn't seem to have a neutral quality or equanimous eh nothing ventured nothing gained huh? Cest la vie...

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: Itisnowagain

Then who is experiencing compassion and awe as it arises.

No one. There is no one - what appears is what appears that's all.
There is no separate self!

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

Take for example your earlier assertions that through practice, one can learn to control their thoughts. You may be able to control your thoughts, but you cannot change your desire to do so. This desire to control your thoughts is out of your control — whether you act on it or not.

Wait a minute. Aren't you reiterating my own point : thoughts under control of the Will. If you look at several of my posts in this very thread , I mention again and again that our thoughts should be under the control of our Will.

Now, Will and Desire are just sides of the same dice. Will is the life force. Qabalistically, Will , Desire, Force, "E"motion are on the same pillar. The opposite pillar is that Mind, Form, etc.

Will is the life force and I can convert it into what I want with my thoughts. The Will is also the Desire at a lower level of the same pillar ; it has many shades and I choose which. Will and Desire are just power (as in force, electricity , etc) . I choose what to power. In other words I choose how to apply the force. The Desire is under my control. I choose how to harness the force .

My Will goes through a learning phase; initially immature though potent. Ultimately , it seeks to align with the universal Will at which point I become a master of my environment. Desire is the lower end of my Will. My mind interacts with my will to change the course of my desire, based on knowledge acquired. Knowledge is my benchmark.