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wicca is not deriven from freemasonry

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posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 09:25 PM
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This has been a very interesting thread. I'm neither a practitioner of Wicca nor a Mason, but I have a passing interest in the subjects.

I thought I'd throw in something I noticed recently when I bought a book called A Pilgrim's Path by John J. Robinson, which is a book about freemasonry. Click here to see the image on the cover of the book.

I couldn't help but notice its similarity to the fool (Le Mat) on the Tarot of Marseilles deck.

The painting on the cover of the book about Masons is called "The Wayfarer" by Hieronymus Bosch, who lived (1450-1516) at about the same time that the Marseilles deck is known to have existed or begun (the 1500s). The author of the book says that it isn't known that Bosch was a Mason or even that Freemasonry existed at the time, but he says the number of Masonic symbols in the painting would make such a coincidence "the most incredible collection of Masonic coincidences that we may ever expect to see..."

I'd love to hear any Mason's take on both the painting as something filled with Masonic symbols, and its similarity to Le Mat from an old deck of Tarot cards.

Thanks for a fascinating thread!



Edit to fix problem with links.

[edit on 25-1-2005 by Estrella]




posted on Jan, 25 2005 @ 09:38 PM
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wicca started in the 1950s


what the hell you talkin about


its a neo pagan religion

it was founded by gerald gardner


[edit on 25-1-2005 by tomb_of_lazarus]

[edit on 25-1-2005 by tomb_of_lazarus]



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 01:43 PM
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no it wasnt it is one of the oldest religions in the world!!!!!



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 02:53 PM
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Have you actually bothered reading this thread?

It is a proven fact that Wicca is a modern religion although it may be based on older beliefs. You always ask for proof so read the links.



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by Shadow Ghost 7
no it wasnt it is one of the oldest religions in the world!!!!!


Ok. Show us one shred of evidence that it is older than even 65 years old. Keep in mind that knowledgable Wiccans themselves make no claims that their religion is older than 70 or 75 years at the most.



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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I think it is fairly well established by this thread that Wicca is a new religion based on some older beliefs.

I hate to repeat my question, but if anyone would comment on what appears to me to be a link between Masonic symbols and The Fool (Le Mat) from the Tarot of Marseilles, I'd be interested to hear what you think. While the tarot is not exclusively used by practitioners of Wicca, it certainly relates. I'm very interested to hear if any of you think there could be a link between Masonry and older Tarot decks.



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by Estrella
I hate to repeat my question, but if anyone would comment on what appears to me to be a link between Masonic symbols and The Fool (Le Mat) from the Tarot of Marseilles, I'd be interested to hear what you think. While the tarot is not exclusively used by practitioners of Wicca, it certainly relates. I'm very interested to hear if any of you think there could be a link between Masonry and older Tarot decks.


A well-known Masonic scholar and philosopher named Albert Pike penned the following:


He who desires to attain to the understanding of the Grand Word and the possession of the Great Secret, ought carefully to read the Hermetic philosophers, and will undoubtedly attain initiation, as others have done; but he must take, for the key of their allegories, the single dogma of Hermes, contained in his table of Emerald, and follow, to class his acquisitions of knowledge and direct the operation, the order indicated in the Kabalistic alphabet of the Tarot.
- ("Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry" by Albert Pike, 33°, p. 777).

The Tarot is in itself a storehouse or "book" of archetypal images and symbolism relating to the Holy Qabalah (Pike's spelling "Kabalah" is in general usage, but "Qabalah" is perhaps more correct).

In the Book of Genesis, it is stated that the Universe came into being through the power of God's spoken Word. Therefore, the 22 letters of the Hebrew Alphabet are taken by Qabalists as mystic oracles, and they correspond to the 22 Major Arcana, or "Keys" "Trump Cards" of the Tarot. For example, The Fool, numbered Zero, represents the Aleph, the first Letter of the Hebrew Alphabet. The Second Key, called The Magician, corresponds to the Letter Beth, and so on. The images on these Cards correspond to the mystical meanings of the Letters, which are further related on a diagram called the Tree of Life. On this diagram, they represent the "22 Paths of Wisdom" which connect 10 circles or spheres called Sephiroth.

Besides the 22 Major Arcana, there is a Minor Arcana, which the modern poker deck is derived from. The Minor Arcana of the Tarot consists of 4 suits, from Ace to 10, with 4 Court Cards in each suit.

The four suits are Wands, Cups, Swords, and Pentacles, which correspond the Elements, viz., Fire, Water, Air, and Earth respectively. It should be noted that these are also the Four Elemental Weapons that are found upon the Altar of the Ceremonial Magician, in their proper Cardinal Points (i.e., the Pentacle in the North of the Altar, the Wand in the South, etc.). The Enochian Tablet of Union sits in the Center of the Altar to balance the Elemental Forces.

The numbered Cards from Ace to 10 represent the 10 Sephiroth on the Tree of Life, with Ace symbolizing Kether, the consciousness of Godhead, and 10 corresponding to Malkuth, the world of matter. 2 through 9 represent the stages of manifestation in between.

So, for example, the Ace of Wands represents the spiritual nature as the basis of Fire in its purest sense, while the 10 of Cups represents Water in its purely material and phenomenal form.

The 4 Court Cards represent what is called the 4 Worlds of the Qabalah; their natures are extremely abstract, and therefore are only studied by advanced students.

Sorry for all that, but it was necessary to cover the basics in order to answer your question. In the initiation ceremony of the Third Degree of Masonry, there is a character called the Wayfaring Man. He is a minor character in the Third Degree play, but his title probably helped warrant him a place on the cover of that book.

But, secondly, The Fool actually represents Divinity in its purity. He is the "Divine folly" that St. Paul spoke of, when he wrote that the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men. His number in the Tarot is 0, which is a Mystic Number. The shape of this Number suggests the Cosmic Egg, which gives birth to everything; further, its shape is suggestive of infinity.

Zero is also philosophical, because it shows that something must represent nothing in order to make mathematical calculations. In the Qabalah, this "nothing" is better understood by spelling it "No-Thing"; it is technically Ain Soph Aur, one of the Veils of Negative Existence that lie beyond the Sephira Kether. It is the primal "No-Thing" which sets everything in motion, but is complete in itself. It could be that this was being represented by taking the first step in Masonry.



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 03:54 PM
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I don't know why someone starts a thread, makes incredible claims, offers no evidence what so ever, and refuses to acknowledge any of the counter evidence that has been shown.

Shadow Ghost 7 - don't let the facts get in your way, believe what ever you want. I believe that one line posts are not actually kosher at ATS. I believe that we like actual information presented in an intelligent format. Most members here don't just want to hear incredible claims when there is nothing to back them up.

Take the time to tell us why you believe that the USAF has some document on Wicca and why you insist it is the oldest religion. In my opinion, without that information there is really no reason for you to have started this thread.

Edit: was too critical on first try - deriven/derived - use of full sentences - what difference does it make?



[edit on 1/26/05 by wellwhatnow]



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by Shadow Ghost 7
wicca is one of the olddest religions!!! I dont know were these mason are getting that wicca was deriven from them in the 1800s AD. Wicca was started in around 3000 or 4000 bc!


I would recommend a book called "Triumph of the Moon : A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft" by Ronald Hutton. A very nice book concerning the "origin" of the neo pagan movement.



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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Masonic Light-

First, thank you! I have to admit I was really surprised. I expected a debate or some informed guessing - I didn't realize the relationship between the two was an established fact. So much for my "discovery."
My only question is how many Masons would agree with what you wrote above and your implication that Masonry and the Qabalah are related?

Second, this really has grabbed my interest. If you know of any good books or websites about the relationship between the tarot and Masonry, please post them here or U2U them to me.

Thanks again.


Edited for clarity.

[edit on 26-1-2005 by Estrella]



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 06:02 PM
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Peace Estrella


Not to answer for Masonic Light(as he probably knows more about Kabbalah than I); however, I'd suggest that if you want to cut to the chase, go with this one:





And a couple by Eliphas Levi are said to be good.


These too:










[edit on 26-1-2005 by Tamahu]



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 06:23 PM
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You may even want to start by learning about the Klipoth.


(Online Course):





www.gnosis-usa.com...







Peace




[edit on 26-1-2005 by Tamahu]



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 06:42 PM
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This is a wonderful thread...pure grist for the mill, and I'd like to put in my meagre knowledge into the debate...wicca vs. Wicca.

A few years back, because of my interests in all things theological, I befriended a man who's wife was the high priestess of an eclectic Wiccan coven. He thought it might be fun for me to observe their rituals and I readily agreed to do so. My first experience was Samhain and I finished what they referred to as the Full Wheel on the following Samhain, doing an entire years worth with them, as an active participant. I read a number of excellent books about Wicca while I was at it and became totally immersed in the lore. All in all, I must say it was an enlightening experience, and can tell you it was worth the time.

But that is not what I'm trying to show you, but only half of it...

The following November, more than likely because of my eye opening revelations with the coven, I sought out an Ojibwa healer near where I live, and asked him if I could be included in a sweatlodge ceremony sometime. He immediately told me to come the next full moon, and I did so. What I beheld throughout the ritual was remarkable. The basic similarities between the two were, at the very least, alike, if not perfectly matched. I was astounded to see the simple aspects of ritual repeated before my amazed eyes in exactly the same way as what I had beheld only a few days before during the final Samhain.

I went back for several more cleansing sweats with this healer and, at times, a shaman as well. My interest was perked to the traditions as are still practiced not more than an hour's drive from where I live, and I still travel those miles to attend pow wows at the reservation there.

I have to mention here that there are differences in how pow wows are conducted, and that some are for 'competition' while others are more of the traditional type...spiritual. The most interesting spiritual type I have seen are relatively small and held at the Cape Croker Reservation on the Bruce Peninsula in Ontario, Canada. The Ojibwa people there are friendly and glad to see the interest we outsiders show in the old ways...they are not the surly hosts, as some would imagine, by a long shot.

So...the upshot is this; wicca is still practiced in North America, resplendant in vibrant colour, dance and drumbeat. The ululations and whistles in the heat of a dance look no different than what I would imagine happening 2 or 3 millenia ago, in Ireland, Britain or Gaul.




[edit on 26-1-2005 by masqua]



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by Estrella
My only question is how many Masons would agree with what you wrote above and your implication that Masonry and the Qabalah are related?


The Qabalah is not mentioned per se in the York Rite of Masonry, although its symbolism is everywhere: Blue Lodge, Chapter, Council, and Commandery. There are probably a great many York Rite Masons who don't anything about the Qabalah or Tarot.

In the Scottish Rite of Masonry, on the other hand, the Qabalah is mentioned in practically every single degree, sometimes in depth through the lecture. For example, the 28°, which is called Prince Adept, or sometimes Knight of the Sun, is purely Qabalistic. There are two chief officers in the degree: Father Adam and Brother Truth. The actual initiation ceremony into the degree mainly concerns listening to a long lecture from these officers concerning the history and philosophy of the Qabalah.

One website I'd recommend is Builders of the Adytum, which can be viewed here:

www.bota.org...

This Order is not Masonic, although its founder was a Mason, as well as a member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. Both men and women are welcome in Builders of the Adytum, which is a School designed for teaching the Qabalah and Tarot.

Tamahu, thanks for the links, I'm going to order the book on Tarot and initiatic paths, it looks very interesting.



[edit on 26-1-2005 by Masonic Light]



posted on Jan, 26 2005 @ 11:38 PM
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I tend to regard Wicca as being in the same religious ballpark as Jedi.
It was intended as a fictious religion for a series of books the author never got around to writing, but somehow it became popular due to some accidentally botched press releases.
Quite an embaressment really, if anyone actually claims it to be their religion then they either are a half-wit or having a laugh.
Seriously....



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 02:47 AM
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posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 09:55 AM
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Thank you Tamahu and MasonicLight. It looks like I have some homework.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by Shadow Ghost 7
wicca is one of the olddest religions!!!

Really? Doesn't seem to have started until recent times. It certainly hopes to emulate what it thinks are the oldest religions.


Wicca was started in around 3000 or 4000 bc!

Why do you say that?



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 12:42 PM
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Stalkingwolf, you never cease to crack me up. Great thread guys (and gals), little or no thanks to the originator.



posted on Jan, 27 2005 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by Estrella
Thank you Tamahu and MasonicLight. It looks like I have some homework.



No doubt.


I started a whole new thread on this too if you're interested.

Tree of Life(Recommended Reading)


And considering that you're in Mexico; you've probably heard of Sameal Aun Weor(Victor Manuel Gomez Rodriguez), no?

Or perhaps 'Huiracocha'(Arnoldo Krumm-Heller)?




Peace



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