wicca is one of the olddest religions!!! I dont know were these mason are getting that wicca was deriven from them in the 1800s AD. Wicca was started in around 3000 or 4000 bc!

As a Freemason and a historian, you are correct. Wicca most certainly did not derive from Freemasonry, and there is nothing in Freemasonry which I am aware of, which represents Wiccan principles or beliefs as such. As a Christain also, I do see that many religious organizations and those believing in a deity have many similar principles in many cases.

Originally posted by Shadow Ghost 7
I dont know were these mason are getting that wicca was deriven from them in the 1800s AD.

And I don't know where you may have seen it suggested by any Freemason that Wiccan religion was derived in any way from latter day Freemasonry? Link please.

Wicca , or the Wicca that we all know, is a somewhat recent affair, originating in predominantly Protestant countries.

Incidently it is precisly in those Protestant countries that Masonry came to have such an influence.

Wicca people often speak of Celt. Celt is also a Protestant Cultural Agenda.

It is well documented by historians that Celt was a term coined to give unity to what is plural.

In ancient Greek , Keltoi, meant "hidden" or "hidden people"
it could have a meaning much like "barbarian",

For example, the Japanese sometimes refer of foreigners as "Gaijin"
now... a not very intelectually able individual in 2300 AD, could come up with a theory that All of Western Europe and US, Canada, etc, were not several countries/cultures, but the Big Gaijin Culture.

The mistake would be of the same degree.

To give you guys an idea, there are some pseudohistorians, who claim that the "Celt" culture spread from Ireland all the way (encompassing everything in the middle) to Turkey.
They abuse the fact, of course that there is not much known of ancient cultures throughout the land.

Wicca often boast of how advanced Celt culture was, emancipated and so fourth, and how they made beautiful works of art, in gold.

Well, lets be rigorous here, Celt culture is late, 800 BC or later.

Do a search on Minoan Art (Knossos) (which dates from 2000 BC), and compare the technique.

There are many incorrect uses of words these days.

Another incorrect usage is the frequent use of the term Christian, in opposition to using the specific and more correct Protestant OR Catholic OR Orthodox.

But some people , due to their twisted mental pattern (culturally derived), think it is in their interest to give the illusion of group where there is none.

Groupings, false comparisons.


Wicca similarity to FreeMasonry in my opinion comes from the fact that both of them claim a link to something (believed to have existed) very old.

It would be the same as me and a bunch of individuals join up and claim we are the heirs to the cult of Bastet (and it would be a good choice too)
and then go on a campaign to prove to everyone that its the real thing.
Publishing all sorts of "scholarly" books to try and induce an institutional feel to it all.

But it would be fake.

Because much like FreeMasons can never hope to understand the mind of Knight Templar (or any God fearing (fear had real meaning then) sword wielding individual of those times), and 21st century "Wicca" can also never hope to understand what their Irish and Northern Paganistic friends actually thought.

Compare the mentality of an individual from 2000 AD, to an individual in 1900 AD (choose any country). And note the difference.

Now transpose that to a 1000 year difference, Cultural beliefs, Reality , everything, the difference is just abysmal, and all certainty of fact or belief is mere speculation.

But Historians and book writers need to support themselvs... so !

I have to concur with ML's post.

I haven't had time to check out the links he posted, but I can recommend a good book on the subject (if you can find it...it's out of print and getting harder to find) It's called "Crafting the Art of Magic" by Aidan A. Kelly.

I think that it is important to note the difference in Witchcraft and Wicca. Gardinarian Wicca did much to popularize Wicca but there were other forms that started at other times.
Witchcraft, on the other hand, existed long before the 19th century or Gerald Gardener. It looks as though maybe the thread originator was talking about Paganism in general or Witchcraft, and not the more modern day Wicca.
I have seen the two confused often.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Originally posted by Shadow Ghost 7
I dont know were these mason are getting that wicca was deriven from them in the 1800s AD.

And I don't know where you may have seen it suggested by any Freemason that Wiccan religion was derived in any way from latter day Freemasonry? Link please.

ask masoniclight that is what he says

Yes, the man's arguments seem very plausible when you read them.

Can you provide the historical origins of the Wiccan religion more accurately, back to 3000 or 4000 BC?

Freemasonry would also cast back that far metaphorically, coincidentally enough, to the construction of King Solomon's Temple.

I would like to read your own detailed historical analysis as an alternate to Masonic Light's, it's great that you have given yourself this opportunity.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Yes, the man's arguments seem very plausible when you read them.

Can you provide the historical origins of the Wiccan religion more accurately, back to 3000 or 4000 BC?

Freemasonry would also cast back that far metaphorically, coincidentally enough, to the construction of King Solomon's Temple.

I would like to read your own detailed historical analysis as an alternate to Masonic Light's, it's great that you have given yourself this opportunity.

sorry to say i can only trace back freemasonry to about 2800bc but i can trace back wicca to the oldest document in existence. which is right now considered a sensetive document by the USAF.

Originally posted by Shadow Ghost 7

sorry to say i can only trace back freemasonry to about 2800bc but i can trace back wicca to the oldest document in existence. which is right now considered a sensetive document by the USAF.

If you were to cite your sources and tabulate them in a way the Masonic posters did, your account would increase in plausibility.

What were the events at 2800BC?

What is sensitive about an ancient historical document and how did it come into the hands of the USAF?

I think that what we have here is a difference over the definition of the word "W/wicca".
If we're talking about Wicca, I would agree with ML. It didn't begin as an organised religion until recently.
But if we're talking about wicca, then I would agree with wellwhatnow. The religion is inspired by pre-christian beliefs that date back thousands of years.

It all depends on wether you are discussing the "official" religion or the belief system from which it was derived. It's rather like arguing about the origins of Freemasonry. Some will say that Freemasonry began with the founding of the English Grand Lodge, whilst others say that it is much older. Both are probably correct - Freemasonry became Freemasonry as we know it in the 18th century, but it was also founded on freemasonry that had been around for hundreds of years prior.

Originally posted by Leveller
I think that what we have here is a difference over the definition of the word "W/wicca".
If we're talking about Wicca, I would agree with ML. It didn't begin as an organised religion until recently.
But if we're talking about wicca, then I would agree with wellwhatnow. The religion is inspired by pre-christian beliefs that date back thousands of years.

key word "inspired" but when you look at any of the pre chrsitain writeings there are priests and priesteses of many faiths recorded but none ever claimed a wiccan faith/religeon or school of mysticism.

but hey if I am wrong post some links to any pre christain text that does because I would be interested in seeing it

Thanks be both to Masonic Light and Leveller for properly explaining things, saves me alot of breath.

Wicca as we know it today as an idea movement is new.

But Wicca is a form of paganism. Paganism itself if a broad term describing many different religons of old that were revived. The word pagan was an old Roman term meaning "country dweller" to describe people whi lived outside the empire, people who the Romans considered "barbarians" and unsophisticated.

Pagan religon itself is humanity's oldest faith. Before history itself, people worshiped spirits, ghosts, and unseen forces, which later became gods and godesses. The main basis for pagan faiths is nature and natural law, and mans place between the divine and earthly. The Romans themselves were later considered pagans by the Christians.

There is no holy book of Wicca. There is no holy city, land, ect. There are many sites considered sacred. Earth itself is considered the temple. And divinity takes many forms to whoever is percieving the divine.

So yes and no, Wicca did and didnt come from Freemasonry. Former Masons did indeed start the first "covens" and magic societies. And if any Wiccans are curious where the the ideas for the set up of the altar, look to Freemasonry. The use of Athame or ceremonial sword came from our Freemason friends, who, like witches, were also mercilessly persecuted by the Church. Much ceremonial or "high magic" or "hermetic magic" comes from the Freemasons.

"Low magic" or the more naturalistic side of Wicca, is far older, perhaps dating back to our first awakening as humans.