What if we've just missed a HUGE evolutionary step in Chimpanzees?

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Yes, I started a thread about this some time ago- the articles back then suggested it could be some type of proto-religious display

You be the judge

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

So the chimps have evolved from throwing poop and
moved on up to rocks now.

And we missed it?

I was there when it happened, but I couldn't see .... due to all the poop flung in my eyes.

a reply to: Phage

Too late for that .

Sadly, as time goes by the opportunities to study chimps in the wild and unpick their behaviour and society is reducing year on year. Men with chainsaws, guns and traps are seeing to their extinction in the wild. They are good bush meat.

While chimps are intelligent, the intelligence is animal and not comparable to mankind.

Chimps on the way out

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
That seems like a hell of a lot of speculation. And what does this have to do with ancient or lost civilizations?

What category would you suggest this goes in? (The only other one I considered was "Origins & Creationism" but it didn't seem to fit there either??)

If chimps are being observed displaying behaviors that can be equated to some of the earliest "civilising" behaviors of humans (like how ritual burying may have started)... then doesn't it fit in with ancient civilisations?

I'm not sure, but where else would it go?

kindest regards,
G


PS - For those who have replied that it is to do with asserting dominance or perfecting their throwing aim...
It doesn't seem to fit in with that. It's not just the high ranking males who are doing this, they've even seen mothers with baby on back doing it! And they only seem to do it at very specific sites, asserting dominance or practice throwing could take place anywhere.

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

I find these updates fascinating for all sorts of reasons. They're like snapshots of us in the distant past and also signposts for where chimpanzee culture could end up. Yes, I said 'culture' as it's an appropriate term when talking about aspects of chimp life.

A couple of years ago saw a female chimp placing a blade of grass in her ear. No apparent reason and all we can do is speculate...or dismiss. However, others in her group began to copy her and also placed a blade of grass in their ears. Arguably this is evidence of a seminal moment in the growth of chimp culture as it's suggestive of peer pressure, mimicry and perhaps fashion.

Elsewhere we've seen chimps using different types of sticks (tools) to get their greedy fingers on bees honey. They climb up and use one to beat the nest with and another to poke out the honey. This isn't a behaviour that all chimps have been seen to display either. It's specific to limited locations and not only through accessibility to bees and honey. Again, it's arguable that these chimps have behaviours that suggest a culture.

Something else I wonder about is their capacity for symbolic thought. There's no doubt they plan ahead or else they wouldn't be selecting the ideal twigs for poking bugs out of tree bark. They wouldn't be lugging the club up a tree without some complex thought first as it's evidence of 'looking' for a suitable branch that fits their mental template. That itself is an indication of symbolic thought. On a more nuanced level, I wonder about their dreams. Do they have a symbolic narrative like our own? Or are they more basic like dogs and cats who dream of chasing birds and running around?

We aren't able to say with confidence that chimps have complex symbolic thoughts. It means we can only speculate about the meaning behind hurling rocks at trees. Despite that, we've seen more examples of tool use and complex behaviour in recent years than ever before. It might be down to better, more efficient studies or it might be that we're watching the birth of such behaviours and there'll be more to follow. It's exciting stuff!

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

While fascinating, we do know that chimps and some other animals are capable of symbolic behavior.

But it's a huge step from symbolic behavior to world domination (ala h. sapiens) and I think the chimps are going to be disadvantaged by us being here first. An interesting question would be if a different species can claw its way up to civilization while living on a planet dominated by another species that has developed civilization and technology.

a reply to: randyvs

I worked at a Zoo and commonly observed that Monkeys throw feces with astounding accuracy when the spirit moves them....and they throw sticks and other things...and this is a multi-species behaviour....they also have the ability to visualise in 3D ...not only mirror but "imagine" a 360degree image,evidenced by my watching a monkey steal a set of keys sucessfully and then saunter over to the Compound door and proceed to without hesitation reach through the bars with both hands and begin happily fitting keys into the lock and he DID NOT keep trying the same key over and over he only tried each one once or twice and then shifted to another one,I didnt see him hit the right key because my co-worker squawked her radio and signaled the other Trainer in the Compound who busted said Monkey.

Make no mistake about it...Monkeys and Chimps and the rest all have individual personalities and they absolutely know how to project intentions driven by emotions based upon their personality driven self-image .Some are nice and some are not some are downright evil desperados and the smartest ones can have any personality because enhanced advanced expdited learning is always driven by something urgent and emotionally catalysed...good or bad....and throwing things at each other is not new behaviour and it is emotionally based some of the time because those times an evil one wants to hurt another one......my cat throws his toy on my feet when he wants to play fetch.

So perhaps they do it, just because they like the sound it makes, so its not a civilising behaviour, its Rock music

Sorry couldn't resist

a reply to: Marduk

That was awsome Marduk....lol.

a reply to: Kandinsky

I couldn't agree more Kan!

G

originally posted by: Byrd
a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

While fascinating, we do know that chimps and some other animals are capable of symbolic behavior.

But it's a huge step from symbolic behavior to world domination (ala h. sapiens) and I think the chimps are going to be disadvantaged by us being here first. An interesting question would be if a different species can claw its way up to civilization while living on a planet dominated by another species that has developed civilization and technology.

Yeah, that's a very interesting point to raise Byrd!
Could they rise to challenge the dominant species or would they be wiped out at the first sign of them being a threat?

G

originally posted by: Gordi The Drummer
a reply to: Kandinsky

I couldn't agree more Kan!

G

Chimps are cool as long as we never have to meet them in the wild!!

Thanks for posting

originally posted by: Marduk
So perhaps they do it, just because they like the sound it makes, so its not a civilising behaviour, its Rock music

Sorry couldn't resist

Are you saying that "Rock" Drummers aren't civilised?? LOL
(see my username!!)

cheers!
G

a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

This is why we need an animal forum.

Half the time people try to find a place for animal related news or put it in a category that seems appropriate. People bitch about where it is, or mods move it, or any number of things. It's complete chaos

a reply to: Byrd

So, ants and bees don't count as civilized? What would they need to implement for us to recognize their colonies as civilization? Would they just have to open trade with us, or would it take more than that?

originally posted by: VP740
a reply to: Byrd

So, ants and bees don't count as civilized? What would they need to implement for us to recognize their colonies as civilization? Would they just have to open trade with us, or would it take more than that?

"Drains is the usual requirement"

a reply to: one4all

Make no mistake about it...Monkeys and Chimps and the rest all have individual personalities and they absolutely know how to project intentions driven by emotions based upon their personality driven self-image .Some are nice and some are not some are downright evil desperados and the smartest ones can have any personality because enhanced advanced expdited learning is always driven by something urgent and emotionally catalysed...good or bad....and throwing things at each other is not new behaviour and it is emotionally based some of the time because those times an evil one wants to hurt another one......my cat throws his toy on my feet when he wants to play fetch.

Great response!

The difference in personalities is evident across a wide spectrum of
different species, mostly mammals I suppose. But not to omit crocks
and gators from what I read. Truly a delightful treat for the observance
of any human who pays enough attention. It''s my view that science
understands very little about even the slightest bit of gray matter
present in any living creature. Scoring intelligence by the size of the
brain to me seems far outdated. But hey, I'm in construction
right? I'm an animal lover tho and have long marveled at personality
traits in both the wild and the domesticated. From my pops race
horses to elephants and canines. From primates to cats the variant
personas are true entertainment and bring a whole different meaning
to color in this world.



One day maybe the chimps will only sling mud.
Like us.

Right here on ATS!

Puppylove

This is why we need an animal forum.

Spectacular idea! kudos.
I hope you persist on the owners.

originally posted by: VP740
a reply to: Byrd

So, ants and bees don't count as civilized? What would they need to implement for us to recognize their colonies as civilization? Would they just have to open trade with us, or would it take more than that?

Well, it wouldn't be a sudden thing but a gradual change over a thousand years or more. So, if the advanced civilization has a culture, law, and mores that protects "lower animals" then they could move up unharmed. However, they would not develop a completely independent culture.

Now... domestication has changed some animals greatly - dogs now understand some of our language and see some colors, unlike their ancestral wolves. Cats are becoming more pack/pride-oriented (similar to lions) and also see some colors. I would nominate dogs as becoming the next species that could be "advanced." Chimps are disadvantaged in that they have special living conditions and are becoming rarer. They have not changed appreciably as a result of being in zoos.