If Jesus is God's Son...

a reply to: whereislogic

The Jews had a "two powers" in the Godhead up until 200 AD . That was why it was so easy for the Jews of Jesus day to except the three power godhead .The third power can also be found using just OT scripture as well

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Last time I looked into the presentations and argumentation from Michael Heiser I noticed that the descriptions in the bible of these types which includes the phrase "truth is not in them" and "they worship me [Jehovah God] with their mouths but their heart is far removed from me" are very appropiate. I noticed Michael Heiser is incapable of being truthful/factual/accurate and honest about his preferred rendering of Deut. 32:8 and with him a whole bunch of bible translators that won't be honest about the so-called evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls regarding this rendering.

Discussed here (you already know cause I pointed it out before to you, but perhaps it may be of some use to someone else):

The Word was with God, and the Word was A god, page 16
Comment with my conclusion and findings regarding the matter (there are more comments in between)

a reply to: whereislogic
The more exact phrases are actually:

"approaches me with their mouth

And they honor me with their lips," (Isa 29:13)

and...

Matthew 15:7-9

7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

Mark 7:6-8

6 He said to them: “Isaiah aptly prophesied about you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 7 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’ 8 You let go of the commandment of God and cling to the tradition of men.”

a reply to: Malocchio

Jesus of Nazereth is the son of man, Christ is the son of God. Christ isn't a person, it is the living spirit of God within Jesus as it is in us. The son of God is within all of us, and was before Jesus was even born. Jesus was a messenger, a powerful one who discovered his eternal union with God through Christ.

Because there was no longer any perceived separation between himself and Christ, when he said 'I', he was referring to Christ not his earthly body. He said 'before ABRAHAM was born, I Am' , Abraham lived many years before Jesus was even born...he was referring to Christ not his Earthly name and form.

Since there is no separation between Christ the son, and the Father, he discovered the good news of his ever present Union with the Father. It is this Union he wants us to discover within ourselves. A powerful message that was not to be tolerated in those times.

a reply to: Visitor2012

This is what Jesus really said and what was recorded at John 8:58 (NW):

“Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

This is what Exodus 3:14,15 really says:

So God said to Moses: “I Will Become What I Choose* to Become.”* And he added: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘I Will Become has sent me to you.’” 15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

1st *: Or “Want.”
2nd *: Or “I Will Prove to Be What I Will Prove to Be.” See App. A4.

There's no relation between the bolded part in John 8:58 and the bolded part in Exodus 3:14. The expression is also not the same and it doesn't carry the same meaning. Trinitarians have been desperately trying to link these 2 texts and pretend that "I Am" is a name or title for God. God's unique, personal and only name is given in verse 15 as I've just shown. Jesus was simply speaking about already existing before Abraham, that's all. Which is consistent with John 1:1, Pr 8:22-30, Rev. 3:14 and Col.1:15, all of which teach that Jesus was the first being that Jehovah created, "the beginning of the creation by God", "the firstborn of all creation", "Jehovah produced me [Jesus Christ] as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.", "in the beginning the Word [Jesus Christ before he was given the name Jesus] was with God".

Details about translating John 8:58 honestly and accurately instead of doing the 'Trinitarian Twist':

So no need for this (that's including doing it for the title "Christ", the title of Jesus, from the Greek word Khri·stosʹ, which is equivalent to the Hebrew word translated “Messiah,” or “Anointed One.”—Mt 1:16; Joh 1:41.):

a reply to: whereislogic

Very interesting analysis of the Bible. It is my opinion that what Jesus referred to when he said 'before Abraham was, I am' was his true and fundamental self which is the eternal spirit of God within him as it is in each of us. Wether we recognize it or not. Which was never born and will never die. Jesus the man is not the son of God, he is the son of man. His fundamental self, however, which is the 'I' he spoke from, is the son of God and he wasn't just referring to only himself. If he was then he would not have said "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High." Psalms 82:6. He is not talking about your mortal being, but the immortal being dwelling within you, as you.

You are very well versed with the scripture but outside your academic interpretation of biblical text, I'm not sure if you are aware of, or directly experienced the fact of what he meant. The living spirit of God, which I call Christ, is in you as you. Collosians 3:9-11 "Christ is all, and in all."

"Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices. and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

This direct experience of Truth is what I'm referring to. Shedding your false self, emptying yourself and being filled with the spirit of truth, reveals the illusion of these false dichotomies, and the truth that, beneath these false exteriors, exclusive belief systems and personas, is the eternal Union he speaks of that all is fundamentally one with Christ, as Christ, who is not separate from the Father.

John 14:16

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--

John 16:12

I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

If you are not aware of your fundamental self, the living spirit of God, which is in fact One and not separate from God, then it is impossible to recognize the Good news nor truly understand what Jesus is referring to when he says I. Because he is, in no way, shape or form, referring to the earthly body of Jesus of Nazereth. Who's body was only an instrument of God, a messenger of the Good news.

The I Am, is within all, as all, as it was in Jesus. Missing the point (synonymous with ignorance of truth), is the original meaning of 'sin' and is the very blindness God's messenger sacrificed his life to deliver us from.

Without the True Gispel, which is the only powerful truth he speaks, there is nothing left but a dead religion, which insist in our allegiance to a single man, who was lucky to be the only son of God, born of people whom God didn't love enough to equally endow them with his living spirit, who was also born as a freak of nature, who preached morals like a social activist, performed magic tricks, and expects our gratitude for his Death and bodily resurrection.

Without supplicating one's self and emptying oneself to receive the profound recognition and revelation that comes from the spirit of Truth which God alone sends to you, within you, there is no chance of receiving the salvation which comes from the true Gospel within oneself.

I'm sure most will disagree with everything I have said. It is inevitable.

Yeah, but the Bible says in Genesis 10 that each tribe spoke their own language.

In the next chapter, Gen 11, the Bible says that at the Tower of Babel the entire world spoke one language.

And they committed an architectural sin. God cursed them for building the Tower of Babel.

And it says that you pollute rocks by hewing them.

I think the Bible needs a new book added. The Book of Architectural Sins.

Exodus 20:25

And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.