Tennessee Mom Throws A Fit When Her Daughter Learns About Islam In School

a reply to: Gryphon66

There isn't is there?

Persecution is, seemingly, endemic to the human condition. That which is different is to be shunned, killed, punished, or otherwise done away with. Sometimes the angels of our better nature triumph, but there's always a push back.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Idiocracy is a documentary.

Want proof? I think that's my second cousin playing Cledus at the start.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Gryphon66

There isn't is there?

Persecution is, seemingly, endemic to the human condition. That which is different is to be shunned, killed, punished, or otherwise done away with. Sometimes the angels of our better nature triumph, but there's always a push back.

All very true.

I think the worst version of it is when it is done blindly ... intentional persecution seems less horrible than that which is done in the name of (and belief in) "good."

a reply to: enlightenedservant

OK, now that I'm settled in (had to throw together a line driver at the last minute, so had a long day)...

I really wish I knew more about your religion. I have had the chance to speak with some of your faith at my University; not as many as I wish I had spoken with, mainly because I do not wish to offend. Speaking tactfully is not one of my strengths; I am an engineer, not an English major. Ask me something in math, and I am much more fluent.

You bring up a good point I hadn't considered. Today we speak more exactly when describing religion: Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Wiccan, Buddhist, poly-theistic, etc. But at the time we're discussing, most people simply separated religion into 'mine' and 'not mine.' You are correct that the term 'pagan,' while properly intended to describe poly-theistic religions, was commonly used to describe any religion not Christian or Jewish.

It really wouldn't surprise me to learn that some called Judaism 'pagan' as well. Education was not exactly an abundant commodity.

The attitude at the time was extremely unforgiving so far as religion was concerned. The American Indians were referred to as "Godless savages" despite many tribes' beliefs having quite a few beliefs in common with the original versions of Christianity. It requires precious little mental gymnastics to believe that early slave traders, who were primarily Christian, would characterize slaves from Africa as 'pagan.' Neither does it take much to believe the same about slave owners.

There have been many exaggerations made about slavery practices in the early America, but one thing is not an exaggeration: the lack of tolerance for religious differences.

I must say I am somewhat ashamed to have missed such an important point about the cultures at that time. Thank you for the education.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

No problem.

Though if we're going to go into history lessons, I have to be blunt: many Muslim communities were just as bad when it came to slavery. I'm incredibly intolerant of the Arab Slave trade, and even some of the Western African groups who were slavetraders (like the Taureg). Some Northwestern African countries like Mauritania & Mali still have different forms of forced labor. And many Gulf nations in the GCC have the "Kafala" system which is one step away from slavery in many instances.

As for my religion itself, the best thing to do is to read the Qur'an for yourself. You don't have to believe it and can even treat it like a work of fiction. But that's the only way to learn what the religion is supposed to be. Then you can compare what it actually says to what you see and hear from others.

In practice, there are so many different denominations and "schools of thought" in Islam that there is no single set of beliefs for us. In fact, many Muslims have never read the entire Qur'an (just as many Christians have never read the entire Bible), instead getting their beliefs from their families, communities, and local leaders. This leads to vastly different "Islamic" views, laws, and policies. This is why it helps to see what translation of the Qur'an someone is quoting, to see what denomination's teachings they're quoting, or to clarify what country they're talking about.

Otherwise, it would be like me claiming that all Christians are anti-electricity because Amish people are traditionally against it. Or chastising all American Christians for not following one of the Pope's recommendations. Or calling Christians hypocrites for not fasting during one of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church's 7 fasting periods. People here at least understand that different Christian denominations and communities aren't bound by the same rules and don't follow the same practices. And they know that some local preachers (or popular televangelists) may come out with some controversial declarations that other Christians don't follow. But people here don't seem to realize that Islam is the same way.

a reply to: enlightenedservant



It is quite refreshing to hear someone else describe the history of slavery so accurately. It was far from just Southern American bigotry... it was (and in some places still is) a widespread practice. None of that excuses America's shame in participating, but it does offer perspective.

Read the Quran... I really, really need to. The problem is, I really, really need to finish studying the Bible, read some of the 'lost books' (some of which are quite interesting), read the copy of the Book of Mormon I was given 2 years ago... not to mention technical books I have backed up to read. I know, that's an excuse... but it is a real excuse. I'm just very very good at biting off more than I can chew.

I find your explanation of the various sects easily believable, and enlightening. I would assume the Quran has one thing in common with the Bible: they are translations of the original scriptures. I know the Bible has been misinterpreted in many places, and poorly interpreted in others. One quick example: the verse "though shalt not suffer a witch to live" is a misinterpretation of the closer meaning "you shall not assist a speaker to spirits to prosper." In modern slang, "don't pay for psychics."

Quite a difference, and I would assume similar instances can be found in the Quran. And maybe subconsciously that's why I have been putting off reading it: I don't want to misunderstand it. It's differences in understanding the Bible that have led to the various denominations, including cults and some pretty atrocious acts throughout history.

It shouldn't be, but it is somewhat surprising to me the similarity of following recommendations. I well remember Pat Robertson. I believe he was a good man with his heart in the right place, but he had this horrible case of foot-in-mouth disease. I have known a lot of people who loved to watch him, but practically all of them would just ignore his comments when he got out in left field.

To tie this back to the original topic, this conversation is exactly why religion should be openly and objectively included in history studies. Had it been when I was in the seventh grade, I would be more familiar with Islam. I seriously doubt such would have destroyed my religious beliefs to nearly the extent of being told an easier-to-read translation wasn't allowed because "we believe in the King James version." Especially considering King James' purpose for commissioning it was to squash the religion altogether.

TheRedneck

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Too many don't know, nor do they care, that there are as many sects of Islam as there are sects of Christianity. If not more.

You'll correct me if I'm mistaken, but most of those varied sects do fall under the aegis of either Sunni or Shia, do they not? I'm nothing like even vaguely knowledgable of this. Like TheRedneck, it's a failing I need to address at some point. Operating from ignorance is foolish.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Justoneman

they are saying here locally:

It is not fair to squash our beliefs and bring in these haters of any not willing to follow sharia AND teach Islam is worthy but Christianity is not.

Don't suppose you have ... you know ... a link, or evidence, or something to corroborate your story ... do you?

I mean, the way you just told it, what's going on is not history, but religious indoctrination in school, which is of course illegal.

So, help us out ... evidence?

I am giving you a window into what is going on and what the neighbors think.

I am sure there was a news story but I didn't save it. That is my report to ATS on that matter.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
LOL ...

'The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.'

President John Adams, Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 (approved unanimously by the Congress, one might add.)

History is an amazing thing.

It is humorous you pick basically an atrocity of what was occurring to people of the US and the world as your example. That being the enslavement of the sailors and passengers the Caliphate was imposing on non Muslims in the 18th century who were traveling the Mediterranean and couldn't defend the attacks of Pirates. They would be slaves for years before being purchased by the home governments of the victims. Read this book for some easy to understand history:
www.washingtontimes.com...

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Too many don't know, nor do they care, that there are as many sects of Islam as there are sects of Christianity. If not more.

You'll correct me if I'm mistaken, but most of those varied sects do fall under the aegis of either Sunni or Shia, do they not? I'm nothing like even vaguely knowledgable of this. Like TheRedneck, it's a failing I need to address at some point. Operating from ignorance is foolish.

Yeah, most of the sub-denominations fall under the Sunni and Shiite umbrella designations. But that's kind of misleading, because the differences between sects within those umbrella terms can be vast. There are also a lot of other "branches" and designations which aren't official denominations but have very distinct beliefs, like Salafis, Quranists, and the Nation of Islam.

The reason for this is because the Qur'an actually doesn't mention a lot of religious "concepts", such as gender separation, circumcision, stoning to death for crimes, the Antichrist/Dajjal, etc. It's very specific in some areas, but very vague in others. So many denominations "fill in the blanks" by requiring various Sunnah, Hadith, and historical rulings. But since each sect accepts different Sunnah, Hadith, and rulings, it gives way to different religious interpretations. On top of that, local traditions and interpretations can also be added as long as they aren't determined to contradict the Qur'an or the Sunnah & Hadith that are locally accepted. This is why a practice may be legal in one Muslim region but illegal in another (like sports, jeans, driving, or twitter lol).

A good place to start with this is actually this wikipedia article I found (HERE). I'll quote one section to show you how confusing the official
denominations are, and it doesn't even go into the different versions of each denomination (like how Sunnis in Chicago can be vastly different from Sunnis in a region of India):

The first centuries of Islam gave rise to three major sects: Sunnis, Shi'as and Kharijites. Each sect developed distinct jurisprudence schools (madhhab) reflecting different methodologies of jurisprudence (fiqh).

For instance, Sunnis are separated into five sub-sects, namely, Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali and Ẓāhirī.

Shi'a, on the other hand, was first developed Kaysanites and in turn divided into three major sects known as Fivers, Seveners and Twelvers. Qarmatians, Ismailis, Fatimids, Assassins of Alamut and Druses all emerged from the Seveners.[1] Isma'ilism later split into Nizari Ismaili and Musta’li Ismaili, and then Mustaali was divided into Hafizi and Taiyabi Ismailis.[2] Moreover, Imami-Shi'a later brought into existence Ja'fari jurisprudence. Akhbarism, Usulism, Shaykism, Alawites[3] and Alevism[4] were all developed from Ithna'asharis.[5]

Similarly, Kharijites were initially divided into five major branches: Sufris, Azariqa, Najdat, Adjarites and Ibadis. Among these numerous branches, only Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali, Imamiyyah-Ja'fari-Usuli, Nizārī Ismā'īlī, Alevi,[6] Zaydi, Ibadi, Zahiri, Alawite,[7] Druze and Taiyabi communities have survived. In addition, new schools of thought and movements like Quranist Muslims, Ahmadi Muslims and African American Muslims later emerged independently.[8]

If it gets confusing, don't worry about it. Because the vast majority of us don't know or care about these divisions either.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: TheRedneck

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely abhor America's version of slavery too. Perhaps even more than the others because I can trace every "root" of my family tree back through it. My great grandmother, who died when I was a child, was the daughter of a slave. And both of her brothers were sharecroppers that were killed by Klansmen that wanted their land in Alabama. However, as I studied the world, I realized that slavery has been everywhere and it even exists in different forms today. So if I'm to hold a grudge, it has to be against human nature itself for continuing to do it.

Anyway, take your time w/it all. The main thing is to realize that we're simply people. We have our share of idiots and a-holes, just as we have our share of good natured people and everything else. We have activists and powerbrokers, as well as apathetic people and zealots. I'll never pretend that we're perfect because no demographic is flawless. But I definitely love my religion and wouldn't give it up even if the entire world tried to force me to.


Oh, one other thing: The Qur'an is NOT a new interpretation of the old Judeo-Christian scriptures. It's a completely different book. In fact, we believe it is the direct teachings of God Himself, revealed to the Prophet Muhammad over roughly 20 years (whereas the Sunnah are supposedly the Prophet's teachings and the Hadith are supposedly the teachings, sayings and traditions of the Prophet, his companions, and the Muslims of that time period). In fact, the Qur'an isn't even divided by chapters; it's divided by revelations which are called "Surahs/Surats". There are 114 Surahs/Surats in total, with the shortest ones only being a few passages long and the longest one being 286 passages long.

We believe it is the final of God's 4 Holy Books, with the Torah, Zabur (Psalms), and Injeel (Gospel) being the previous 3. But we also believe the other 3 books have been changed and corrupted over time, hence the need for a 4th book which also "corrects" many of the things that were changed in them. Obviously non-Muslims won't agree with that perspective, but at least you'll understand where we're coming from. It does mention many of the Prophets and some parts of their stories, but it's mostly filled with warnings, insight, corrections, and rules (like what is required, recommended, allowed, discouraged, and forbidden).

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Thank you for that.

a reply to: seagull

No problem.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Like, what we expect in a media conditioned hate environment? In this western world everything is approved and culturally correct. Everyone is so nice. Until they see a burka, Koran or beard. Then the hate comes out.

I was walking my dog in a park and came upon two people kneeling on their prayer mats one morning, facing mecca and doing the ritual.

I was watching this as I walked by when suddenly I became aware of this lady frozen on the walkway both hands covering her mouth. She was muttering to herself, she couldn't believe this was being allowed to happen right here in these united states. I knew her too. She was gesturing and pointing, fearful as can be. I chuckled and went on my way, secure in the knowledge the main stream media has done a thorough job of poisoning people against anything Arab.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Good result

Edmisten;
“How can I, as a Christian, say that I have these values? And I want to instill these values in my daughter, but then say it’s okay, go ahead and do it.”

Obviously as a Christian/fundy/conservative who has never studied the Old Testament in depth.

a reply to: Irishhaf

Its one thing studying comparative religion in social studies and quite another "sermoning from the teachers desk"

"sermoning" preaching, you know what I mean, my mind is frazzled

a reply to: Irishhaf

So much for separation of church and state... Teaching young impressionable teens/pre-teens about a religion (any religion) does influence the way they think even if its not being "pushed" overtly.

You still don't get it. If I was you I would be more concerned and assist my children's education everyday after they came home from school as the public schooling system was designed by the Rockefellers to bring out better unquestioning little factory fodder



www.wakingtimes.com...

In our dreams, people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present education conventions of intellectual and character education fade from their minds and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk.

We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into men of learning or philosophers, or men of science. We have not to raise up from them authors, educators, poets or men of letters, great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, statesmen, politicians, creatures of whom we have ample supply.

The task is simple. We will organize children and teach them in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way.

First mission statement of the J.D. Rockefeller-endowed General Education Board in 1906

a reply to: karl 12

like Greek gods

Come on get real...how is learning about Zeus going to get more people on board about increasing foreign aid to Israel?

I'm still in two minds as to who is more culpable in the crucifixion of Jesus the Romans or the Jews - but I guess that Rome doesnt get as big a cut than Israel

a reply to: dawnstar

from your source

sexual healing. "It's never been about the money," she said at one point, her voice wavering. "I saw people in darkness become the light ... I am a priestess."

Sounds like religion Marvin Gaye would be proud of: "sexual healing"
or Todd Rundgren "I saw the light"