Revisiting Jaques Vallée - Beyond the Control Loop

a reply to: billydebunker

Mirageman, mirageman, mirageman. What would you like me to say to you? I know you, and you know all the cases, the ones that are printed up in books, anyway

And I think I know you too. I once thought you were just some stir crazy dude from America. Better keep that one quiet though.

Oh be wary of the Zika virus. Those aliens could be working on not just abducting but infecting as well.

www.mirror.co.uk...

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Hello Kev,

Nice to hear from you again.

Do you think Mr. Vallee has a favourite theory?

originally posted by: underwerks
I've always loved reading Vallee. I believe there are a few different explanations for anomalous sightings. Some are physical nuts and bolts craft, some are ours, some may be interdimensional bleed throughs, and some are space animals. Depending on what is sighted.

Dude, you got it right. I agree to a large degree. My personal experiences were with nuts and bolts craft and physical beings involving physical contact. But for all I know of there origin, they could be ET, they could be extra-dimensional, no way of knowing.

"Five specific arguments articulated here (Journal of Scientific Exploration 1990) contradict the ETH (Extra-Terrestrial Hypothesis)

1. unexplained close encounters far more numerous than required for any physical survey of the earth

2. the humanoid body structure of the alleged "aliens" is not likely to have originated on another planet and is not biologically adapted to space travel

3. the reported behaviour in thousands of abduction reports contradicts the hypothesis of genetic or scientific experimentation on humans by an advanced race

4. the extension of the phenomenon throughput recorded human history demonstrates that UFO are not a contemporary phenomenon

5. the apparent ability of UFOs to manipulate space and time suggests radically different and richer alternatives"

From OP

The bold is a total confirmation bias statement. Let's examine it. "Large heads, tiny bodies" is not "biologically adapted to space travel" needs the following tacked on: "in the manner that humans travel in space". Yeah, totally agree that if you are shaped like a bobble-head you would have a tough time being mobile in space (zero G). Just look at George Clooney in that movie! But that statement has to be the entire whole!

If somebody is going to travel in space over vast distances THERE IS NO NEED FOR INERTIAL DAMPENERS!!!! For crying out loud pull your head out of Star Trek's arse and think like a nose breathing relativist. The solution: Create your own inertial frame of reference inside your craft. Then statement #2 above goes out the window. Statement #1 and #3 are arguments of the type, "Aliens should behave this way" (and by extension, "because that is how humans would do it"). Think for a second. If you cannot explain an experience to another human being then WHY THE H3LL DO YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT THE TRULY OTHER IS THINKING?

Statement #4... uh, thanks *shrugs*. Why does the UFO "phenomenon" have to be only modern (according to our history)? The answer is it doesn't. So *awkward* thanks?!

Again, statement 5 is a complete *face palm* because it is from a human bias point! IF (speculation) there is some big black budget project that has figured out how to "manipulate space and time" then that point is moot because--look at what the cleaver monkeys figured out!

So, nothing really made of there. Those collective statements do not prove or disprove anything especially the ETH.

As for Vallee... uh, that thinking is kind of a cop out! Let's see. Uh, bundle all this other sh# in that is sociological in nature then argue there is no science to prove anything. Puh-leez. Most scientists do not even think of sociology as a science but an extension of statistics (before anybody jumps up and down claiming I am some lousy bastid for crapping in their cereal, I have a degree in computer science and am one or two classes from a minor in sociology). So... OK Dr. Vallee you have a bigger ball of sh# on your hands and now you say, "mind control". *rolls eyes*

There. You have dug yourself a deep hole of solipsism and now, with your hands holding a big glob of crap, climb out!

My opinion. Despite what TDL has done and what Vallee claims, there are physical ships and physical beings doing Gawd knows what to various people that are chosen for Gawd knows what reasons. As a bonus, watch Communion again. When Whitley is laying on the couch a little grey dude touches his forehead with a wand-like device. That is a major hint to those that think there is no way an alien could travel vast distances.



a reply to: Peeple

This post is not a personal attack but a refutation against some sloppy thinking that has been quoted.

There is also some credence in "mind manipulation" in the UFO phenomena. Some of it works on us (like visual impairment to keep one from seeing a black triangle) in a single sense while at other times it seems to "project images into our heads" (KPB's statement on the Metacafe thread). Some of it seems technological as well (like my being able to see through a triangle craft to view the moon behind it during my experience. It is on Black Triangles and the Breakaway Society thread somewhere). Just like there is no need to jump "OMG! It is ALIENS!!!" there is no need to jump off the control loop cliff. What the middle ground is is unknown but I have a naïve belief it exists and is there (my own control loop).

Great topic to bring up! Thanks for the spot to word puke and vent a little! And thanks for holding my hair while I word puked!

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: underwerks
I've always loved reading Vallee. I believe there are a few different explanations for anomalous sightings. Some are physical nuts and bolts craft, some are ours, some may be interdimensional bleed throughs, and some are space animals. Depending on what is sighted.

Dude, you got it right. I agree to a large degree. My personal experiences were with nuts and bolts craft and physical beings involving physical contact. But for all I know of there origin, they could be ET, they could be extra-dimensional, no way of knowing.

"Every contact leaves a trace" is the maxim of crime scene investigation. A nuts and bolt craft and physical beings should leave a physical trace. We would all love to see it.

originally posted by: billydebunker
And yet, I'm still waiting for you to address the fact that Vallee was wrong when he said that alien technology was always just a decade or two ahead of our current technology. This thread is about Vallee, right?

I can't speak for Vallee, but I'm pretty sure that he said that it's curious that what we perceive as UFO technology -- whatever it might be -- appears to only be a few decades ahead of what we commonly understand to be our current level of technology. This, as opposed to being 1,000 or 100,000 years ahead of us. What he is suggesting (I think), is that our own perceptions are heavily influencing what we see.

He also implied that this "preview of coming attractions" is the Control System's way of nudging us forward toward a specific type of future. I don't agree with him on this, so it's hard for me to explain it in a way that makes it sound logical. Because to me, it isn't.

originally posted by: billydebunker
The only thing they are teaching us is that we are a species they can prey upon.

Strictly conjecture, but one reason they might go about doing this "teaching" in this way is that they really are from our own future, and they're working to make sure that we follow the right technological path that would enable their very existence. If they just appeared and gave us the technology, then the timeline would be so heavily disrupted that they could very well wipe out their own existence. So they need to be stealthy and obtuse, while still giving us "hints" about what direction to go.

They are often described as humanoid, after all. That some similar being might evolve independently on a nearby planet is in some ways less likely than time travelers. We are clever, after all, and if we get hints from our future humans, we might be able to figure out time travel.

originally posted by: Peeple
*disclaimer: written on tablet, excuse the unusual presentation*

I am pretty sure most of you know Jacques Vallée, lately he's been a lot on my mind and I think he already gave us the answer to the question what the UFO phenomenon really is. But please note this is a presentation of my own conjecture.
snip

As bright as Vallee may be he never gave a 100% answer to the UFO phenomenon. He only speculated, assumed. But like all who think that they can explain what UFOs are, in totality, they fail. Interesting and thought-provoking conjectures on his part but no cigar.

NO ONE knows anything more about UFOs than what is found in the public record. I don't know if Vallee had any sightings, which wouldn't have mattered. but I've had six quality sightings and I can't explain them. It's futile.

originally posted by: klassless
NO ONE knows anything more about UFOs than what is found in the public record. I don't know if Vallee had any sightings, which wouldn't have mattered. but I've had six quality sightings and I can't explain them. It's futile.

Quite so. At this point, even someone who has done a decent amount of research on UFOs -- even casual research like reading the articles here -- can't say for sure what we're dealing with. A social phenomenon that you can photograph? Hallucinations that leave physical traces?

*shrug*

a reply to: TEOTWAWKIAIFF

Okay, a bit ranty, but fine.
He said that when all there was pretty much was the ETH and no room for something else. So the least it really does is trying to broaden the horizon.
Because you're right, knowing is impossible. Just from my experience, what I really "saw" is not even enough to say if it has a firm body, just figures grey in grey. It is really good in setting up tracks, stories which always turn out to be "tricks". And nobody can convincingly tell me what their agenda is, how many phenomenon are from how many sources, because if it were all one, we could safely say, they are with us since forever, magic, meditation, emotional energy, why do they seem to respond to that?
That at least makes it much more likely we are talking about something that exists "parallel", than far, far away.
And yes mind control. All the weird clubs, military with occult and alien interests, club of nine, thule society, masons, scientology,... if I try to convince them to give me power over the world, someone else tried before also. I bet.
But how much do they really know, we're talking about the tricksters... or are we just throwing our mysticism in the mix, if we experience UFO/aliens, while it really is a separate phenomenon?

a reply to: mirageman

As far as i know, no.

We did discuss how connected the phenomenon is with consciousness, but unlike many, he does not jump to unwarrented "mystical conclusions".

High strangeness is even stranger than wave/particle duality (for example).

We need more information and we don't have it (yet).

Kev

a reply to: ch1n1t0

The rivets were the single most important facet of the experience. I learned more about "UAPs" due to that...than every UFO post ever made on ATS.

But thats just my personal take.

Nope the rivets were not a childhood memory as far as i know.

Kev

a reply to: Peeple

Oh please! Surely you know that we are all executing within a dyson swarm around the last remaining star 11 trillion years from now...moments before the dark energy "big rip" end of this Universe.

Black Knight satellite really!

Don't be fanciful!

😀

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: klassless
NO ONE knows anything more about UFOs than what is found in the public record. I don't know if Vallee had any sightings, which wouldn't have mattered. but I've had six quality sightings and I can't explain them. It's futile.

Quite so. At this point, even someone who has done a decent amount of research on UFOs -- even casual research like reading the articles here -- can't say for sure what we're dealing with. A social phenomenon that you can photograph? Hallucinations that leave physical traces?

*shrug*

You hit the nail on the head since no matter how much research or how deep one goes in search, you are still dependent on the research done by others. Whatever new is discovered, it's not going to be groundbreaking and it'll just be added to the pot from which everyone goes for info. Add to that that we're not only dealing with an unexplainable phenomenon but this phenomenon seems to be composed of unknown varieties! It started off as "flying saucers", then came "cigar-shaped", then all hell broke loose and now UFOlogy is the Detroit car manufacturing scenes with tons of various models. It is obvious from this angle that UFO "occupants", if they are not remotely controlled, must come also in a variety of "beings" who may not be connected to just one species.

Would you buy a used UFO from this alien?

a reply to: Peeple

I'm a student of Jacques Vallée and for me his work has been misinterpreted, in many respects canonized in old world superstition and unscientific thinking circulating in the general populous. One important factor in understanding Vallée's work is to note the underlying interpretations and conclusions arising out of the narrow context of information he used in his correlations. After his first two books touting evidence for the ETH theory, he became somewhat obsessed with individual encounters related to "high strangeness" cases, which he eventually adopted as evidence for the 'extra-dimensional' hypothesis of EDH. It is only fair to note that high strangeness cases throughout UFO history has statistically represented only a fraction of the likely millions of encounters which may have occurred. I found it rather alluding that Vallée in his subsequent EDH books was at times critical of ETH authors for excluding the rare cases of high strangeness as gibberish, while Vallée's extra-dimensional premise was based solely on this narrow category of information. It is hardly a scientific path for such a man to take unless he is attempting to prove an idea that would not be supported by the overwhelming trend of the data. Why would a scientist of his caliper use obscure information to create a whole new interpretation of the alien contact phenomena, when well documented evidence was plainly illustrating the very physical nature of metallic craft and flesh and bone humanoids? Vallée was a colleague of the civilian physicist, J. Allen Hynek, during and long after his work as an analyst for the Air Force Blue Book project. There is good indication that Vallée got much of his thinking from Hynek, who may have believed and advised the government about some unknown intelligence creating the illusion of UFOs and ET encounters through a hypnotic psycho-spiritual induction of the human sensory apparatus. It was during the beginning of his tenure with Hynek that Vallée began to change his mind about the physical nature of ET encounters. Deconstruction the EDH approach is not difficult wen taking these and other factors into the context. if Hynek and Vallée believe that an unknown intelligence is attempting to rewrite the human thought construct for its own nefarious purposes, it would make sense that books would be written in order to tip the scale toward a distrust of physical space brothers attempting to gain our trust in their redeeming tech. In Vallée's EDH books, he references his interpretation by the behaviors of UFOs, such as the visual morphing effects, blinking in and out of reality, instantaneous right angle turns and other things that mortal beings could not endure. But his assumptions are based in the ignorance of exotic quantum based technologies that could manipulate time and matter, causing the same effects.

In the 5 decades of my own study, and the evidence that has been well documented and interpreted by many scientific groups, I would say there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of other carbon based humanoids interacting with earth humans throughout recorded history and well beyond. In the Yuzhny Park incident, during the cold war in the old Soviet Union, hundreds of Russians witnessed the landing of a craft, from which two very tall humanoids exited, appeared to take samples of fauna and soil and then quickly departed in their craft. Vallée interprets this high strangeness case as an intelligently manufactured illusion, simply because he sees it as purely irrational that real ETs would do such a thing. Vallée's fundamental flaw of assuming that non-human beings would behave as we do is quite astonishing and should be obvious to any intellectual thinker capable of double checking his own assumptions. I have studied Vallée more than any other author and have found his many flaws as extremely unscientific.

I think overall that I must give both the EDH and the ETH valid claims on the greater premise that there are in fact unseen beings representing their own agenda, which may be contrary or in competition to ours in scope and that some ET encounters may be in point of fact, misinterpretations, even as Vallée surmises. But because the evidence for that is very minuscule, it should not be confused with physical elements that are measurable quantifiable.

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: underwerks
I've always loved reading Vallee. I believe there are a few different explanations for anomalous sightings. Some are physical nuts and bolts craft, some are ours, some may be interdimensional bleed throughs, and some are space animals. Depending on what is sighted.

Dude, you got it right. I agree to a large degree. My personal experiences were with nuts and bolts craft and physical beings involving physical contact. But for all I know of there origin, they could be ET, they could be extra-dimensional, no way of knowing.

"Every contact leaves a trace" is the maxim of crime scene investigation. A nuts and bolt craft and physical beings should leave a physical trace. We would all love to see it.

And what trace do you expect a hovering, silent ship that does not use conventional propulsion or aeronautical engineering to leave, exactly? I'm all ears, mister.

That aside, there are over three thousand physical trace sightings of UFOs, do some homework on the issue.
Start with Betty Cash, Vickie Landrum and Colby Landrum, who were poisoned by radiation from a UFO.

From wiki:

After the UFO and helicopters left, Cash took the Landrums home, then retired for the evening. That night, they all experienced similar symptoms, though Cash to a greater degree. All suffered from nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, generalized weakness, a burning sensation in their eyes, and feeling as though they'd suffered sunburns. Over the next few days, Cash's symptoms worsened, with many large, painful blisters forming on her skin. When taken to a hospital emergency room on January 3, 1981, Clark writes, Cash "could not walk, and had lost large patches of skin and clumps of hair. She was released after 12 days, though her condition was not much better, and she later returned to the hospital for another 15 days."The Landrums' health was somewhat better, though both suffered from lingering weakness, skin sores and hair loss. A radiologist who examined the witnesses' medical records for MUFON wrote, "We have strong evidence that these patients have suffered secondary damage to ionizing radiation. It is also possible that there was an infrared or ultraviolet component as well."

There's the trace you claim you would love to see. You're welcome. Now look into the remaining 2,999 cases.

a reply to: Gianfar

Then who are these blue guys? And why are they showing up during a psychic session?

I can't speak for Vallee, but I'm pretty sure that he said that it's curious that what we perceive as UFO technology -- whatever it might be -- appears to only be a few decades ahead of what we commonly understand to be our current level of technology. This, as opposed to being 1,000 or 100,000 years ahead of us. What he is suggesting (I think), is that our own perceptions are heavily influencing what we see.

Well, you seem to be speaking for Vallee. Now here's where that BS crashes faster than Roswell:

So why haven't flying saucers changed since sightings in the 1920s?

If they're always only a decade or two ahead of our technology as Vallee would have you believe, then how come they haven't changed in a hundred years?

Bam! Sorry Vallee, you don't seem to know much at all.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: billydebunker
The only thing they are teaching us is that we are a species they can prey upon.

Strictly conjecture, but one reason they might go about doing this "teaching" in this way is that they really are from our own future, and they're working to make sure that we follow the right technological path that would enable their very existence. If they just appeared and gave us the technology, then the timeline would be so heavily disrupted that they could very well wipe out their own existence. So they need to be stealthy and obtuse, while still giving us "hints" about what direction to go.

They are often described as humanoid, after all. That some similar being might evolve independently on a nearby planet is in some ways less likely than time travelers. We are clever, after all, and if we get hints from our future humans, we might be able to figure out time travel.

You've been watching Back to the Future.

Let me see if I got this load of malarkey right:

They are us from our future, and they came back to make us do things so that they will exist in the future.
Riiight.
And one of the Greys dated Marty McFly's mother so he wouldn't disappear from a photo.
Did they bring back a sports almanac too, but Biff stole it?

Vallee is an idiot, or disinformation or both.

originally posted by: Gianfar
a reply to: Peeple

I'm a student of Jacques Vallée and for me his work has been misinterpreted, in many respects canonized in old world superstition and unscientific thinking circulating in the general populous. One important factor in understanding Vallée's work is to note the underlying interpretations and conclusions arising out of the narrow context of information he used in his correlations. After his first two books touting evidence for the ETH theory, he became somewhat obsessed with individual encounters related to "high strangeness" cases, which he eventually adopted as evidence for the 'extra-dimensional' hypothesis of EDH. It is only fair to note that high strangeness cases throughout UFO history has statistically represented only a fraction of the likely millions of encounters which may have occurred.

Can you include any irrefutable evidence to support just one out of the "likely millions of encounters"?

I found it rather alluding that Vallée in his subsequent EDH books was at times critical of ETH authors for excluding the rare cases of high strangeness as gibberish, while Vallée's extra-dimensional premise was based solely on this narrow category of information.

We have more circumstantial evidence to support EDH than ETH. ETH is a romantic creation for which there is no evidence. On the contrary, EDH evidence can easily be seen in tons of videos that allege to show ghosts, beings, etc., and your best evidence comes from security cameras and trail-cams that capture non-physical realities. But none of the footage shows aliens or anything associated with UFOs.

It is hardly a scientific path for such a man to take unless he is attempting to prove an idea that would not be supported by the overwhelming trend of the data. Why would a scientist of his caliper use obscure information to create a whole new interpretation of the alien contact phenomena, when well documented evidence was plainly illustrating the very physical nature of metallic craft and flesh and bone humanoids?

No alien contact, yet. Flesh and bone humanoids? Where? Who? When?

Vallée was a colleague of the civilian physicist, J. Allen Hynek, during and long after his work as an analyst for the Air Force Blue Book project. There is good indication that Vallée got much of his thinking from Hynek, who may have believed and advised the government about some unknown intelligence creating the illusion of UFOs and ET encounters through a hypnotic psycho-spiritual induction of the human sensory apparatus.

Where do you get this stuff and why didn't you quote it? Unless it's you who are making it up as it sounds absurd!

It was during the beginning of his tenure with Hynek that Vallée began to change his mind about the physical nature of ET encounters. Deconstruction the EDH approach is not difficult wen taking these and other factors into the context. if Hynek and Vallée believe that an unknown intelligence is attempting to rewrite the human thought construct for its own nefarious purposes, it would make sense that books would be written in order to tip the scale toward a distrust of physical space brothers attempting to gain our trust in their redeeming tech. In Vallée's EDH books, he references his interpretation by the behaviors of UFOs, such as the visual morphing effects, blinking in and out of reality, instantaneous right angle turns and other things that mortal beings could not endure. But his assumptions are based in the ignorance of exotic quantum based technologies that could manipulate time and matter, causing the same effects.

In the 5 decades of my own study, and the evidence that has been well documented and interpreted by many scientific groups, I would say there is overwhelming evidence for the existence of other carbon based humanoids interacting with earth humans throughout recorded history and well beyond. In the Yuzhny Park incident, during the cold war in the old Soviet Union, hundreds of Russians witnessed the landing of a craft, from which two very tall humanoids exited, appeared to take samples of fauna and soil and then quickly departed in their craft. Vallée interprets this high strangeness case as an intelligently manufactured illusion, simply because he sees it as purely irrational that real ETs would do such a thing. Vallée's fundamental flaw of assuming that non-human beings would behave as we do is quite astonishing and should be obvious to any intellectual thinker capable of double checking his own assumptions. I have studied Vallée more than any other author and have found his many flaws as extremely unscientific.

I think overall that I must give both the EDH and the ETH valid claims on the greater premise that there are in fact unseen beings representing their own agenda, which may be contrary or in competition to ours in scope and that some ET encounters may be in point of fact, misinterpretations, even as Vallée surmises. But because the evidence for that is very minuscule, it should not be confused with physical elements that are measurable quantifiable.

Bah! Humbug!