Revisiting Jaques Vallée - Beyond the Control Loop

a reply to: Voyaging

It is "fly you fools" both in the book and film.

There is always this enigma concerning us in the future. If we invent and perfect time travel, then certainly we will go back and experience different phases of our history. I do not know if Vallee ever hinted at that, but the electromagnetic and plasma like effects seem like they would be involved. Additionally, cattle mutilations and abductions could be a harvesting of genetic material.. Perhaps we need parts in the future that are no longer available...

a reply to: tetra50

I'm happy you liked it and thanks for the effort you put in your response. You certainly bring up important and interesting points.
I've been travelling the religious path for a while and my take on it is: literally no one ever talked to god in person. There is always a middleman, an angel, a burning bush, or it's a visual experience. How familiar are you with the Kabalah? That's maybe the best description of a recipe to get a "god experience" and it comes with warnings, the uninitiated surely will break their mind, the road is long, you have to tackle numerous "gates" and it's mostly meditation, with a taste of alchemy. That's pretty revealing, don't you think? And it brought me to a very different view of god, the universe and our place in it.
God is all knowing, he is everywhere and exists outside of time, he is singularity. That's the fabric of everything, basically all we see, hear, know, experience has a tie to this "all is one". But it's no being, has no personality, no agenda. While there are beings "closer to god" than we in our current material bound form of existence. It's all there if you cook a soup out of the essences of all spiritual teachings. So religion is not wrong and not right, it has to be experienced to be understood.

To say it with the wisdom of Terence McKenna

if you keep your laboratory (psyche) free from dirty socks (dogmas, cultural bias, etc) your experience, or again the essence of it, is all you can trust. Knowledge doesn't mean you can control it, yet, but as more and more people break through the control loop, we'll get there. But it will have to be a symphony of all we got, science and technology, the free pure mind and the heart with all its will and intention.

a reply to: charlyv

I don't think Vallée ever even mentioned time travelling.
It's what I took from my catalogue of experiences, my UFO sightings, my "abduction", time loss and once I even got a whole extra day, the chain reaction it set in motion, the cores of the stories I read and heard and my gut feeling if I take a step back and try to look at the bigger picture.
I called it conjecture for a reason.

originally posted by: Aliensun

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Aliensun

I'll have to go on a limb if I try to explain because it's a quote from Vallée, but my guess would be, that one could assume an advanced race would make it's research less traumatic and intrusive to the subject.
Which to me supports the theory that the one(s) conducting them has no idea what a trauma is, because it's functioning on an unemotional purely logical basis, not biological.

That view, if truly Valle's, has some value and, in fact, probably originates with the first ever widely reported abduction, that of Betty and Barney Hill as she likened the manners of the ETs to Nazis.

As an abductee myself, having followed abduction cases for a long time, I suspect Valle's hunch has some validity. Other contributing factors may be a lack of their ability to completely apply the mind-control technique inherent in virtually every abduction case.


I also will mention that in many abduction reports, the little creatures are evidently of a worker class and the taller beings with the large, dark and deep eyes have the ability to transmit love, compassion and understanding. --Not to say that such projections are true or honest or simply called forth if they think they are needed for the traumatic situation at hand (or claw).

Now this guy knows what he's talking about. This is extremely accurate, and should horrify you.

But I don't get how some people can still cling to the hope that the abduction program has anything to do with "scientific study". Gimme a break. You're being replaced. These abductions have been reproductive in nature since the beginning. Nearly every abductee will tell you that, often in great detail. The pieces of the puzzle were put together, but you don't like the picture. I don't blame you. In fact, forget I said anything, let's just go with "friendly scientific study", okay? We'll all sleep better, right?

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: Peeple


Your response strays too far from the actuality of the event of an abduction. Two things work against our local logic. First, we have no clue to the extent of how mind control works. Is it mind-to-mind, technologically augmented, or a combination of both. It would seem on the face of the continuing evidence that the ETs have a very good concept of how we operate AND how to control us. To suggest anything short of that is, again, denying the evidence of about every abduction experience.

Testify, brother! I'm delighted to find a poster who knows exactly what he's talking about.

I don't know of a single abduction occurrence where mind control was not implemented. I've often wondered the same thing, is their telepathy and mind control a facet of a more advanced mind, or is there a component of technological enhancement? Is it related to their hive-mind mentality? You can hear the thoughts of aliens "talking" to each other in your presence, at least sometimes. You can hear them argue. These are beings that are superior in many ways, but their actions reveal them to be thieves in the night. If what they are doing is good for us, why do they do it in the dark, and do their best to make sure you don't resist, interfere, or even remember?

Just asking.

a reply to: billydebunker

But I don't get how some people can still cling to the hope that the abduction program has anything to do with "scientific study". Gimme a break. You're being replaced. These abductions have been reproductive in nature since the beginning.

Reproductive? Humans are now capable of manipulating genes and cloning other humans if we wish. Why would a more advanced species need anything more than a few samples of DNA? Once they had charted the genome, which they could presumably do more quickly than we can, they could produce any number of individuals to order.

I am sure your experience was terrifying, but it cannot have anything to do with an extraterrestrial breeding program. This is exactly the sort of nonsensical belief that Vallee finds strange and troubling. If your experience is not simply a nightmare, what is really going on?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: billydebunker

But I don't get how some people can still cling to the hope that the abduction program has anything to do with "scientific study". Gimme a break. You're being replaced. These abductions have been reproductive in nature since the beginning.

Reproductive? Humans are now capable of manipulating genes and cloning other humans if we wish. Why would a more advanced species need anything more than a few samples of DNA? Once they had charted the genome, which they could presumably do more quickly than we can, they could produce any number of individuals to order.

I am sure your experience was terrifying, but it cannot have anything to do with an extraterrestrial breeding program. This is exactly the sort of nonsensical belief that Vallee finds strange and troubling. If your experience is not simply a nightmare, what is really going on?

Lol, I love it! Ever notice it's the ones who haven't even come to grips with the fact that flying saucers are real, are the ones who will tell you exactly what an alien would and wouldn't do?

"Reproductive?" he says, somehow shocked at the idea, despite fifty years of reports and quite public discussion of it. Are you really posting in a UFO website and somehow unaware that nearly every abduction report details reproduction and hybrids?

Wow, you ought to tell the aliens they're doing it wrong, you could probably save them a lot of money and time. But your opinions on what the aliens are up to are not worth much when you have to ignore all the evidence, and our opinions are worth a great deal more because we are speaking from a position of experiential knowledge.

"Nonsensical belief", he says. Sorry friend, this is the real world.

a reply to: billydebunker

....when you have to ignore all the evidence, and our opinions are worth a great deal more because we are speaking from a position of experiential knowledge. "Nonsensical belief", he says. Sorry friend, this is the real world.

Plenty of evidence. But here's the hard part for you.

What part of that 'evidence' is undeniable proof that aliens are abducting people for 'reproductive' purposes to create hybrids.

a reply to: tetra50

I believe in God and his avatar.
I feel it is correct.
Mr. Vallee's work is my favorite explanation on the phenomena.
When applied to history and biblically the mind can boggle.

The big problem with the idea of abduction events being based in physical reality is that if they are occurring they leave no trace. And by 'no trace' I don't mean a dropped exhaust pipe or discarded litter, I mean not even witnesses. Some of these abductions reportedly happen in built-up areas. It is hard to accept the notion of low-hanging ET craft performing abductions without anyone at all noticing and not showing up in any telescopes, radar equipment or CCTV footage.

Also there appears to be no correlation between UFO sightings and reported abductions, as in none whatsoever. Which is very surprising whether or not you believe abductions are taking place. And some of these sightings are pretty credible (by which I mean, mass observation and video recordings that defy explanation).

On the other hand, there is precisely one witness account of what was later described as an alien abduction by the person who underwent the experience. According to the witness, the experiencer was visible at all times and remained firmly earthbound, with no visible phenomena to support his story. Either he was delusional or his abduction phenomenon did not take place in physical reality.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: billydebunker

Plenty of evidence. But here's the hard part for you.

What part of that 'evidence' is undeniable proof that aliens are abducting people for 'reproductive' purposes to create hybrids.

It may be the hard part for you, but it's not hard for me. What do I care if you don't want to listen to what is going on? Seriously? Tell you what, you sit back and wait for your undeniable proof, and I'll just go on discussing the alien situation with other people who know what's happening, or at least are interested in it.

There are plenty of important discussions to be had about the 'why', the 'how', the 'when', and we should be spending our time and energy on those matters. But we know a great deal about what they're doing, these specific aliens anyway. If you're not on board with what we know, I'm not sure what you want me to do, pretend I don't know these things are facts? Is that really going to help you, or me, or anyone? Will that make you feel better? I doubt it. And frankly, if you've done so little research into abductions that hybrids are news to you, then get back to me when you get up to speed. Or don't. But thank you for your response.

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: billydebunker


Plenty of evidence. But here's the hard part for you.

What part of that 'evidence' is undeniable proof that aliens are abducting people for 'reproductive' purposes to create hybrids.

It may be the hard part for you, but it's not hard for me. What do I care if you don't want to listen to what is going on? Seriously? Tell you what, you sit back and wait for your undeniable proof, and I'll just go on discussing the alien situation with other people who know what's happening, or at least are interested in it.

There are plenty of important discussions to be had about the 'why', the 'how', the 'when', and we should be spending our time and energy on those matters. But we know a great deal about what they're doing, these specific aliens anyway. If you're not on board with what we know, I'm not sure what you want me to do, pretend I don't know these things are facts? Is that really going to help you, or me, or anyone? Will that make you feel better? I doubt it. And frankly, if you've done so little research into abductions that hybrids are news to you, then get back to me when you get up to speed. Or don't. But thank you for your response.

I HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE FORMAT AND BILLYDEBUNKER'S REPLY GOT LEFT OUT. SEE HIS ORIGINAL REMARKS.

You can't "just go on discussing the alien situation with other people who know what's happening, or at least are interested in it." because there is NO alien situation, you make it up as you go. If your life depended on it you couldn't provide any more information than what is in the public record which is just made up of hearsay. No one has any concrete proof for no one has ever had any experiences with alleged aliens. And anyone who says they have are lying through their teeth.

Put up or shut up! "specific aliens", what a laugh. Abductions? Pure unsubstantiated, patented bs.

a reply to: billydebunker

There are plenty of important discussions to be had about the 'why', the 'how', the 'when', and we should be spending our time and energy on those matters. But we know a great deal about what they're doing, these specific aliens anyway. If you're not on board with what we know, I'm not sure what you want me to do, pretend I don't know these things are facts? Is that really going to help you, or me, or anyone? Will that make you feel better? I doubt it. And frankly, if you've done so little research into abductions that hybrids are news to you, then get back to me when you get up to speed. Or don't. But thank you for your response.

What would you say are the most convincing cases for evidence of alien abduction are then?

a reply to: charlyv
In a fairly short paper titled
"Incommensurability, Orthodoxy
and the Physics of High Strangeness:
A 6-layer Model for Anomalous Phenomena"
Vallee does address the possibilty of "terrestrial" time travellers being responsible for at least some ufo/uap events. The pdf is available free online.

The problem simply is this. The ordinary conscious human doesn’t understand that there are extra-dimensional realities that were all involved with or their involved with us even though were unconscious of them. That doesn’t mean they don’t impact on us.

The basis of religion has always been metaphysical truths masked within mythologies of the standard religions. Within those mythologies have always been metaphors for metaphysical facts people long ignored save a few: advanced masons, Rosicrucian’s, Sufis, and some Buddhists and other mystics.

The fact is Vallee came in contact with some of these mystics at one point and that is one of the reasons for his expansion of understanding.

originally posted by: jonasdelnegros
a reply to: charlyv
In a fairly short paper titled
"Incommensurability, Orthodoxy
and the Physics of High Strangeness:
A 6-layer Model for Anomalous Phenomena"
Vallee does address the possibilty of "terrestrial" time travellers being responsible for at least some ufo/uap events. The pdf is available free online.

Thank you, I am going to get a hold of that paper. One aspect of some of this being time travel related would be that there is never any physical evidence left behind, because there cannot be. Everything brought in does not belong here and has to go back. That in itself means that things should not be able to be taken as well, but it is really only conjecture because we understand so little about it. Fascinating stuff.

originally posted by: klassless

originally posted by: billydebunker

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: billydebunker


Plenty of evidence. But here's the hard part for you.

What part of that 'evidence' is undeniable proof that aliens are abducting people for 'reproductive' purposes to create hybrids.

It may be the hard part for you, but it's not hard for me. What do I care if you don't want to listen to what is going on? Seriously? Tell you what, you sit back and wait for your undeniable proof, and I'll just go on discussing the alien situation with other people who know what's happening, or at least are interested in it.

There are plenty of important discussions to be had about the 'why', the 'how', the 'when', and we should be spending our time and energy on those matters. But we know a great deal about what they're doing, these specific aliens anyway. If you're not on board with what we know, I'm not sure what you want me to do, pretend I don't know these things are facts? Is that really going to help you, or me, or anyone? Will that make you feel better? I doubt it. And frankly, if you've done so little research into abductions that hybrids are news to you, then get back to me when you get up to speed. Or don't. But thank you for your response.

I HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE FORMAT AND BILLYDEBUNKER'S REPLY GOT LEFT OUT. SEE HIS ORIGINAL REMARKS.

You can't "just go on discussing the alien situation with other people who know what's happening, or at least are interested in it." because there is NO alien situation, you make it up as you go. If your life depended on it you couldn't provide any more information than what is in the public record which is just made up of hearsay. No one has any concrete proof for no one has ever had any experiences with alleged aliens. And anyone who says they have are lying through their teeth.

Put up or shut up! "specific aliens", what a laugh. Abductions? Pure unsubstantiated, patented bs.

I think your post is darn interesting. I do like your emphatic insistence that the reality experienced by other people cannot exist because you say it doesn't exist. That's some seriously blustery proclamations right there, sounds alittle on the omnipotent side, don't ya think? It shows a grandiose disregard for the fact that your absence at these events makes your opinion on their veracity really quite worthless, as anything but an opinion, anyway.

Frankly, I'd love to be blissfully unaware. Sometimes. But then, I'm a big fan of knowin' stuff.

Can I really argue with a guy who is so sure that he capitalizes "NO" alien situation? What would be the point. LOL "no one has ever had any experiences with alleged aliens." To start from such an indefensible point is nothing more than wishing out loud.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Aliensun
Oh and btw nothing and no one can make you act against your intentions, that's an established fact we know from hypnosis.

I was under the impression that wasn't the case, do you have more info on that?

No Manchurian candidate, no quacking like a duck on stage if it wasn't secretly something you wanted to do?

a reply to: WhateverYouSay

I already answered that.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: SargonThrall

Really explain the hypnosis bit, please? All I know about it is not really scientific as they're just starting to investigate it. It doesn't work with me. And well what you catch on the ride, suggestions make it unreliable for fact gathering around the abduction phenomenon and I always hit the "screw you" wall.

Interesting article if you like to know where I am coming from mindfulness meditation and hypnotisability

Sorry unless you're empty headed with no morals, nobody can make you.