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Should Police be Required to Confirm the Threat Before Shooting.

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posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 05:35 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

What pisses me off are these questionable videos that have multiple god damned officers in the videos.

It's only one thing for traffic stops to lead to fatal injury, but it seems when you increase the numbers of police, they only respond with EVEN MORE precaution and unjustified force.

Somehow in the heat of the moment with a perpetrator surrounded- the gun goes off more and that really upsets me. Deadly force should not be required when you have enough man power to physically force them to the ground, a person to each limb. Claiming they have weapons when they constantly end up being unarmed is ludacris too.

Very few people think that they're going to outshoot cops, infact only Cops think that people think they can outshoot cops. When people shoot cops, it's always dirty, and in isolation, I've seen it, it's rarely these scenarios that the narrative is playing out, where a perp that is completely surrounded and in some instances already on the #ing ground or hands up, is shot, not by ONE by TWO and THREE and FOUR cops. If you feel that you are capable to be an Officer and able to capture one perpetrator without THREE #ING BACKUP cops, then I maybe somewhat trust your judgement with a weapon- but if you need a firing squad(presumably because you have #y aim too, I find aim to be correlated to judgement) to protect you in the 5 #ing seconds it takes to put handcuffs on an unarmed person, while you hold a gun, then don't be a cop- that simple. The rest will play out the way macho men play.




posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 05:52 PM
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originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: JoshuaCox

What your missing is that it is many times a single MILLISECOND...a heartbeat...you havent time to make a call, ask your partner, radio ahead, use binoculars..

Its F'd up, I know...I agree...but its a great idea, but hard to do in a single breath or you could die...




I've had a gun to my head more than once.


It all boils down to what's better?

Cops killing innocent civilians when they are wrong?

Or an extra cop or 2 dieing in the undoubtably rare case it is a murderer.

I think cops killing innocents is worse. The civilian wasn't paid armed and trained to be in that situation.


Seriously? A cop or two dying is better? So that cops record of actually busting bad guys for however long means nothing?

Wow!


By this scenario why do doctors even try to help those on their deathbed? I mean they're dying so why try to do anything? Isn't their time spent better by helping those that they know will make it?

Hell....let's just pull out of the slums and projects and trailer parks all together and let the folks there fend for themselves...police have better things to do than risk their own lives by going to the scene of a 911 call for violence or a crazed person or whatever right?




Being an American citizen means nothing?!?!


Lol you have to be willing to take the worst case scenerio of both situations... your taking the best case LE case and comparing it to the worst case American.

You've gotta take both best or both worst for it to be a valid comparison..

Which is why I figured in the deaths of both parties...


I don't think it's different than what's better when soldiers die, or civilians in a war zone??

Well neither, but at least the soldiers agreed to play that game.


You can't just decide it's ok if less of groupX dies if that means more of group Y.


That is such a bad analogy I can't even rebut it... but yes, assuming a dr has a limited amount of time. He should start with those that are savable. Ask any combat medic.



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 05:55 PM
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originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: JoshuaCox

What your missing is that it is many times a single MILLISECOND...a heartbeat...you havent time to make a call, ask your partner, radio ahead, use binoculars..

Its F'd up, I know...I agree...but its a great idea, but hard to do in a single breath or you could die...




I've had a gun to my head more than once.


It all boils down to what's better?

Cops killing innocent civilians when they are wrong?

Or an extra cop or 2 dieing in the undoubtably rare case it is a murderer.

I think cops killing innocents is worse. The civilian wasn't paid armed and trained to be in that situation.


Seriously? A cop or two dying is better? So that cops record of actually busting bad guys for however long means nothing?

Wow!


By this scenario why do doctors even try to help those on their deathbed? I mean they're dying so why try to do anything? Isn't their time spent better by helping those that they know will make it?

Hell....let's just pull out of the slums and projects and trailer parks all together and let the folks there fend for themselves...police have better things to do than risk their own lives by going to the scene of a 911 call for violence or a crazed person or whatever right?




No, a cop who risks his life by charging into a known threat to dsave some one is a hero!!!


That's your logic.. a cops main job is to get home, not risk his life for people remember..


I'm (among others) the one who said their primary job was protect and serve.


The question is what about when they act before confirming their was a threat.



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 05:58 PM
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a cops primary job is to go home at the end of their shift?
seriously.
pretty good deal

not preserve life. not enforce the law. none of that.
go home at the end of the day is the primary job????

i think thoughts like that are the real problem



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 06:42 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

I have to agree with all youre saying here...



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 06:49 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox


Well...I can only respond to what you said here:
I
"It all boils down to what's better? Cops killing innocent civilians when they are wrong? Or an extra cop or 2 dieing in the undoubtably rare case it is a murderer.

I think cops killing innocents is worse."

Both are horrendously bad. Any killing is bad. Unless its to save a life. Even that is tragic....



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 07:18 PM
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originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: JoshuaCox


Well...I can only respond to what you said here:
I
"It all boils down to what's better? Cops killing innocent civilians when they are wrong? Or an extra cop or 2 dieing in the undoubtably rare case it is a murderer.

I think cops killing innocents is worse."

Both are horrendously bad. Any killing is bad. Unless its to save a life. Even that is tragic....


Obviously lol doubt you could find someone to argue that.



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 09:01 PM
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originally posted by: intrptr
You want to survive, prostrate yourself fully before the alter of law enforcement, get down on the ground, face down and place you hands out at your sides. Now pray.

Ahhh ... a man who knows what it takes to survive.


There's usually a step prior to keep you free from all the drama. They preach this in the military too: "Don't draw fire."



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 11:08 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

Hey Josh? Thanks. You and I both have a lot of insight to offer! It only takes a little to make a difference!

Best

MS



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 11:24 PM
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I hate to make this analogy, but I really do think it's similar to referees in sports games. They're incredibly mostly accurate in making decisions of super quick nature.

I wonder what percentage of police get the "call" right vs. NFL refs, don't you?
edit on 28-9-2016 by Tempter because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 11:36 PM
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Im sure this has been seen by most but it sums up the hypocrisy and lack of knowledge of the anti force/cop peeps!

Use Of Force Role Play Video- Activist

It take less then a second for someone with a gun to shoot you dead!

Lack of compliance of a cops commands is the cause of most shootings. Of Course you have a few bad apples as well!



posted on Sep, 28 2016 @ 11:46 PM
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originally posted by: sirlancelot
Im sure this has been seen by most but it sums up the hypocrisy and lack of knowledge of the anti force/cop peeps!

Use Of Force Role Play Video- Activist

It take less then a second for someone with a gun to shoot you dead!

Lack of compliance of a cops commands is the cause of most shootings. Of Course you have a few bad apples as well!



Then they should shoot everyone they approach... just incase...


What could happen is irrelevant, anything could happen.


" I didn't go to work because I could have had a car wreck and died. (Link to wreck to blind side)

See how quick some one can hit you?"


Could have should not be a good enough excuse WHEN THE PERSON WASNT EVEN ARMED AFTER THE FACT!



posted on Sep, 29 2016 @ 12:16 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

It's an incredibly complicated issue. I wish there were a simple answer that covered everything.

This isn't a one size fits all thing, though. There's not one fix and every shoot is golden. I wish there were.

Sort of seeing both sides of it, I see issues everywhere and not a good way to solve them. I think I know things that might help but they'll never be done, so it's sort of like getting some popcorn and watching the trains wreck in slow motion, while the engineers on both trains are shouting "It's not my fault!" as the trains explode and fall off the trestle into the river.



posted on Sep, 29 2016 @ 01:27 AM
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a reply to: Bedlam

The answer is simple. This country is done for.

The police are the ONLY defense against mayhem and the strong overpowering the weak.

And most Americans are so comfortable, so cozy and so remote from any sense of impending threat that they extend the benefit of the doubt to the criminals, while being completely suspicious of the only people protecting them.

What if your body rejected its own immune system? What if your body began distrusting your T-helper cells?
That what HIV-AIDS is.

Our society has an ethical auto-immune disorder. And it's fatal.



posted on Sep, 29 2016 @ 01:27 AM
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a reply to: Bedlam

The answer is simple. This country is done for.

The police are the ONLY defense against mayhem and the strong overpowering the weak.

And most Americans are so comfortable, so cozy and so remote from any sense of impending threat that they extend the benefit of the doubt to the criminals, while being completely suspicious of the only people protecting them.

What if your body rejected its own immune system? What if your body began distrusting your T-helper cells?
That what HIV-AIDS is.

Our society has an ethical auto-immune disorder. And it's fatal.



posted on Sep, 29 2016 @ 01:39 AM
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originally posted by: redempsh
What if your body rejected its own immune system? What if your body began distrusting your T-helper cells?
That what HIV-AIDS is.

Our society has an ethical auto-immune disorder. And it's fatal.


To be honest, it's more like myeloma. You've got some percentage of T-helper cells that are rogue and are attacking the body. And the other T-helper cells are covering for them. Along with the complement system, which should be overseeing the regulation of the bad T-helper cells but doesn't because there's an inherent conflict of interest.

To paraphrase Marcus Aurelius, "What is the problem in itself? What is its nature?" And that problem is a failure of trust. That failure is due to power without responsibility, authority without accountability. Because the oversight systems of law enforcement are caught in an irredeemable conflict of interest. There's no way to fix that with the system design we have. So as police training has slowly evolved to the current "citizens as subjects" thing it does now, with the LEOs openly saying their only priority is to go home at the end of their shift (i.e. you will be killed if you worry me) then the public trust begins to diminish. And as that happens, the perception of the public is that you are unrepentant murderers. And that's only made worse by the way police deal with this sort of thing. As you circle the wagons and become ever more clannish and aloof, you seem less and less trustworthy. And people are getting a snoot full of it. YOU guys see it as more and more threatening, so you become less and less truthful and more and more defensive, and quicker to shoot. It's a positive feedback effect you will eventually lose as it becomes a purely political issue.

The only way to actually put the thing to bed is to restore public trust. And you can't do that with blue lines, and wagon circling, or shooting cops, or BLM, or police unions acting like whingy dicks. If the public had trust that you were doing your best instead of just cutting loose and killing everyone in the vicinity to go home at the end of your shift (wow was that a bad choice of things to claim, just sayin), then there would be less of this 'every kill is the act of some madman cop' thing that's going on. But you've lost that trust. And that's only going to go downhill.



posted on Sep, 29 2016 @ 04:44 AM
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originally posted by: redempsh
a reply to: Bedlam

The answer is simple. This country is done for.

The police are the ONLY defense against mayhem and the strong overpowering the weak.

And most Americans are so comfortable, so cozy and so remote from any sense of impending threat that they extend the benefit of the doubt to the criminals, while being completely suspicious of the only people protecting them.

What if your body rejected its own immune system? What if your body began distrusting your T-helper cells?
That what HIV-AIDS is.

Our society has an ethical auto-immune disorder. And it's fatal.



What happens when some one with the authority of LE is the strong overpowering the weak?



posted on Sep, 29 2016 @ 05:25 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: redempsh
What if your body rejected its own immune system? What if your body began distrusting your T-helper cells?
That what HIV-AIDS is.

Our society has an ethical auto-immune disorder. And it's fatal.


To be honest, it's more like myeloma. You've got some percentage of T-helper cells that are rogue and are attacking the body. And the other T-helper cells are covering for them. Along with the complement system, which should be overseeing the regulation of the bad T-helper cells but doesn't because there's an inherent conflict of interest.

To paraphrase Marcus Aurelius, "What is the problem in itself? What is its nature?" And that problem is a failure of trust. That failure is due to power without responsibility, authority without accountability. Because the oversight systems of law enforcement are caught in an irredeemable conflict of interest. There's no way to fix that with the system design we have. So as police training has slowly evolved to the current "citizens as subjects" thing it does now, with the LEOs openly saying their only priority is to go home at the end of their shift (i.e. you will be killed if you worry me) then the public trust begins to diminish. And as that happens, the perception of the public is that you are unrepentant murderers. And that's only made worse by the way police deal with this sort of thing. As you circle the wagons and become ever more clannish and aloof, you seem less and less trustworthy. And people are getting a snoot full of it. YOU guys see it as more and more threatening, so you become less and less truthful and more and more defensive, and quicker to shoot. It's a positive feedback effect you will eventually lose as it becomes a purely political issue.

The only way to actually put the thing to bed is to restore public trust. And you can't do that with blue lines, and wagon circling, or shooting cops, or BLM, or police unions acting like whingy dicks. If the public had trust that you were doing your best instead of just cutting loose and killing everyone in the vicinity to go home at the end of your shift (wow was that a bad choice of things to claim, just sayin), then there would be less of this 'every kill is the act of some madman cop' thing that's going on. But you've lost that trust. And that's only going to go downhill.



I think the true source is the politicians using police as tax collectors over minor infraction s that have nothing to do with public safety.


Do we have these specific problems if police only interfere if there is a legit safety risk???



posted on Sep, 29 2016 @ 08:09 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

I find it entertaining that a police officer is not held to a greater standard in matters like these, than a citizen might be in a similar situation. And yet, a citizen may be arrested for murder, even if they shoot an armed individual in circumstances where it is not clear who the aggressor is immediately.

I think the balance needs to shift, and that officers SHOULD be aware that putting on a badge means playing the odds, and having to behave like better men and women, than those who surround them. That means risking their lives, taking that risk on the chin, and living or dying by the consequences with no hard feelings. Otherwise, why the hell become a cop in the first place? How can you avoid becoming the criminal, if your standards are so low as to prefer to take an innocent life, rather than lose your own?



posted on Sep, 29 2016 @ 08:20 AM
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originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: intrptr
You want to survive, prostrate yourself fully before the alter of law enforcement, get down on the ground, face down and place you hands out at your sides. Now pray.

Ahhh ... a man who knows what it takes to survive.


There's usually a step prior to keep you free from all the drama. They preach this in the military too: "Don't draw fire."

As someone who spent long periods 'outdoors', Ive had to muster to the police numerous times in the middle of the night. I never had to assume the position because I never behaved in a threatening manner. I wonder how that would go nowadays. Police seem to be way more edgy than I ever remember them. Like someone else said too, they seem to be used as revenue collectors for minor infractions more and more, and in the particular case of the man in NC, he was apparently just waiting to pick up his kid at a bus stop.

Really? Thats some suspicious behavior there. Right there on that street somewhere is the house with the person in it who called it into police wth the hash tag, "I think he has a gun".

I hope they sleep well at night from now on. Maybe they're just racist and enjoyed the show, maybe they're just conditioned by the see something say something xenophobic media. Leastways, what a trifecta dystopia we find ourselves in.



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